Let's have some fun: Do you always prefer In house movement or not in house?

[Enkidu]

Best value overall in house? Seiko - Yes!
Best value swiss in house? Rolex (Yes!) and Omega (eh .. really?)following closely behind.
That's what i think.

Omega ok bah... for the asking prices... I believe they are ok...

Given the choice to choose between Omega and Zenith, I'll go for a Zenith. 

[euclidorus]

Tyler, in your posted example, it appears that your criteria was primarily movement finishing & long term ease of servicing. I would choose differently (without the benefit of seeing the case design) here and would base my primary criteria on the fact that Seiko controls pretty much the entire value chain of manufacture and has 20 years of R&D to support any future issues that may arise. However, if you do post a picture of the other sides of both watches, perhaps I may get seduced by Dufour so much that whether it is ETA or in house does not matter any more, i.e. the heart rules over the head.

..... mentioning about all the marketing lies... I feel that way too...
It's misleading.
Sometimes it's frustrating when misinformation gets passed around by sales agents to consumers where in turn passed the misinformation to other consumers......

That's why I still believe the most reliable and bullet proof movement that can give the owner years of problem free ownership is better than dropping serious moolah for an "in house" movement that needed to be away every couple of months in a year due to unreliability and teething pains.

Watch manufacturers are selling the "idea" that in house is better which is hardly the case.
Status wise, it offers some intangible value, but ownership experience and peace of mind is the real criteria.

My point exactly, of course as we spend more time in this hobby, the reading and sharing among friends. Ultimately we will be able to tell the poser from the authentic.   

However my dilemma is ...

In house (Spring Drive)


Not in house(ETA)



Here's the close up
Comparing the two you can see which one has "watchmaking" than the other. Even to an untrained eye it's easy to spot the different level of finishing and care on these two watch.



All photos by Steve G

Not only that, I don't think seiko can guarantee the repair of the spring drive movement for more than 15 years because not all part are mechanical. While on the other hand the ETA can be service and maintain by any master watchmaker for a long long time.

In this case the in house is a complete no go for me.

Is a tricky subject for sure.

Regard
Tyler

[Godzillaz]

LOL. 

Some model are quite nice. The new speedmaster with 2 sub dial I like a lot. The movement is super robust I heard.

Omega ok bah... for the asking prices... I believe they are ok...

[hanz079]

Best value overall in house? Seiko - Yes!
Best value swiss in house? Rolex (Yes!) and Omega (eh .. really?)following closely behind.
That's what i think.

Omega ok bah... for the asking prices... I believe they are ok...

Given the choice to choose between Omega and Zenith, I'll go for a Zenith. 

Zenith is a sure thing... but as u all know... I am a huge fan... can't always be seen pushing Zenith in front right? lol

[Godzillaz]

That would be cheating. If I do post the the dial side. 

My dilemma is primary on the new high technology/design of nowadays compare to old style make by hand approach.

As you know there's no way you can make a spring drive movement by hand. A traditional watchmaker usually source available parts, ie case, dial, hands, movement in raw/crude state and go on to modify/upgrade to a desire state to his own standard.

I have learn that this practice has been practice way before the supposedly "in house movement mania" in the post 2000s.

I mean rolex never make any new movement since they introduce their automatics in the 40s/50s until 2004 where they release the new daytona.

They are basically a 1 movement company.

The Holy Trinity? I don't think their so called "in house movement" has existed more than 35 years.

In terms of control value chain. I don't think any company would stock more than 20% spare parts of their total production. If is something too high tech it won't be forever fixable. An example would be the those electronic board in the IT industry. When old printer/DLP projector breakdown there is finite time where the manufacturer have available spare parts to fix it. After that period all we can do is throw the thing away.

Mechanical parts can be fabricate by hand even after a long period has passed but ic board and micro circuit? Who is going to open a production line to help print just one board?


Hence my dilemma. Don't get me wrong. I love the sprind drive (got one myself) but I wonder about it's lifespan.


       

Tyler, in your posted example, it appears that your criteria was primarily movement finishing & long term ease of servicing. I would choose differently (without the benefit of seeing the case design) here and would base my primary criteria on the fact that Seiko controls pretty much the entire value chain of manufacture and has 20 years of R&D to support any future issues that may arise. However, if you do post a picture of the other sides of both watches, perhaps I may get seduced by Dufour so much that whether it is ETA or in house does not matter any more, i.e. the heart rules over the head.

[Enkidu]

Precisely. Which have more credentials? The old man who spend his entire life making fine watches using the tradition way or a big corporation who majority product are not serviceable.

By the way I don't know whether you aware that a few years ago Seiko invite Dufour over to Japan to seek his advice on how to improve their Grand Seiko line.

I know finishing is only part of it that's because the topic is center around movement. I didn't wanna go into the discussion of a whole watch simply due to the scope of the subject is too broad to reach an end.

Same thing could be say about movement. Just by developing its own movement doesn't automatically quality itself as a superior watchmaker.

Regard
Tyler

The debate about in-house vs. ETA/Valjoux/UNITAS has been debated countless times in many fora but remains refreshing.

My humble observations:

(a) Reliability - 2 different brands housing the same ETA/VJ/UNITAS movement may not have equal reliability. I have experience of a watch with UNITAS movement (ristis, don't get excited, it was a daniel jean richard) which needs servicing probbaly as often as the NASA space shuttle.

(b) Ease of Servicing - Some of the movements (albeit not in-house) used by Phillipe Dufour are so well polished and sculptured that I fear you will not be able to find a watchmaker in this part of the world to repair / replace if any of these parts are damaged. You will need to send it back to Switzerland in any instance. Moreover, would you want a local watchmaker with probably lesser watchmakng skill than Mr. Phillipe Dufour to service your beautiful and expensive PD watch?? Hence, ease of servicing do not apply equally to all ETA/VJ/Unitas watches.

(c) Phillipe Dufour creates some truly beautiful watches. Yes, I read he was invited by Seiko to advise them on the finishing (emphasis added deliberately  ) to some Credor movements. I am not aware of his involvement to improve the GS line. Perhaps Godzilla can share his source of information and what improvement PD made to the GS line (better accuracy?? longer PR??).

[terrenceterrence]

Just like F1 teams using myriad of similar engines with their own inhouse works tuners and engineers to rework it, the watch industries are the same. There are just a handful of "engine" suppliers.

It's just how much you want to rework the calibre and market it out (e.g. IWC, Omega 2500, Ressence, PSM etc)  or just plonk it in with minimal works (Sinn, Bremont, Helson etc) and calling it your own (Panerai unitas and 7750)

Of course the former method requires a deeper pocket and heck load of more patience to own and when maintenance period is up. The do require a more specialised set of parts and know how of the interior workings vs the latter. The time spent away would definitely be much longer which requires sending back to the SCs and not just your neighbourhood certified watchmaker.

Caveat, like what Tyler have brought up would be the supply of parts bin by the manufacturers in time to come. Even an inhouse manufacturer like Rolex does not service it's own watches of more than 30 years. So being inhouse does not guarantee eternal bliss. So does that mean collectors should follow examples of vintage cars lovers in hoarding up rubber seals, door latches, meters and etc?

An ideal world would be having a deep enough pocket to acquire a collection of workhorses and pedigree pieces. While the thoroughbred are away at the spa, you can take the workhorses out for some adventure.

[rusminag]

Just like F1 teams using myriad of similar engines with their own inhouse works tuners and engineers to rework it, the watch industries are the same. There are just a handful of "engine" suppliers.

It's just how much you want to rework the calibre and market it out (e.g. IWC, Omega 2500, Ressence, PSM etc)  or just plonk it in with minimal works (Sinn, Bremont, Helson etc) and calling it your own (Panerai unitas and 7750)

Of course the former method requires a deeper pocket and heck load of more patience to own and when maintenance period is up. The do require a more specialised set of parts and know how of the interior workings vs the latter. The time spent away would definitely be much longer which requires sending back to the SCs and not just your neighbourhood certified watchmaker.

Caveat, like what Tyler have brought up would be the supply of parts bin by the manufacturers in time to come. Even an inhouse manufacturer like Rolex does not service it's own watches of more than 30 years. So being inhouse does not guarantee eternal bliss. So does that mean collectors should follow examples of vintage cars lovers in hoarding up rubber seals, door latches, meters and etc?

An ideal world would be having a deep enough pocket to acquire a collection of workhorses and pedigree pieces. While the thoroughbred are away at the spa, you can take the workhorses out for some adventure.

[takashi78]

Now this is the type of topic i love.

First in reply to Terrence,
Technically F1 engines are frozen for development.
Teams are only allowed to change engine mapping to suit styles of drivers and the circuit.
NOTHING inside the engine can be changed. As per the rules.

Back to topic i agree with most here.
I would go for reliability first than anything else.
But sometimes the heart takes over and i go for something else.

But dont know if i am lucky or not, usually the newer in house movt are 2x-5x more expensive than their same brand same model eta/soprod/technotime etc equiv.

I think the in flux of in house movt in the market in recent years is due to the eta effect.
Dont know how long each company took to develop their movt and if its been tested or not so thats a gamble on our own.

Do i "look down" on eta modified brands?
Well...if the brand did enough "improvements" and extra time and finishing on it, why not?
Damn...i for one paid for one hell of a an expensive eta modified 2892 watch.

[Yikkie]

My points are not conflicting.  If all things being equal, it will be a no brainer to go for in-house.  If not, we would need to decide on what is important to us such as reliability, finishing, branding, design, etc, etc.  There are no right or wrong answers.  I personally chose the Omega PO with ETA movement rather than their in house 8500 movement as I thought the price increase was unjustified.  However, I also chose the Zenith Stratos Striking 10th over a lower end but comparatively priced  Panerai or IWC with ETA movement (as an example) as I value the in-house El Primero movement and its heritage.  I of course also like the design of both Panerais and IWC as much as the Zenith but I could not justify paying so much money for them as they use slightly modified ETA movements that are also used in other watches costing a fraction of the price.  The El Primero is unique to Zenith (and some early versions of Daytona among others) and the fact that it is made in house with unique complications such as the 1/10th foudrayante made the decision easy for me.  It really is a case by case basis if you factor in other variables.  Go with what is important to you.   

I'm confuse by your conflicting point.

If all things being equal then,YES one should choose an in house movement

but

Never a situation where all things can be equal, so YES we should still go for in house movement because is a manufacturer has more credentials?

Then the final point

There are many aspect to consider when buying a watch so the question "Do you always prefer in house movement or not in house?' is an unrealistic one and reliability is the key ....

and the answer is? 

That is a theoretical "equal" to take out the subjectivity of other influencing factors. After all, the question posted was "Do you always prefer in house movement or not in house?". It is of course unrealistic in the real world...but you would need to remove variables to answer a question directly.

[Godzillaz]

Aaaa ... ... I get it now.

Thanks to the example you gave. I was a bit lost now is crystal clear. Thanks for taking the time to explain it to a bonehead like me. 

I always thought using in house movement as a criteria for a purchase may not be fool proof. Your experience reinforce my thought.

Thanks again.

Regard
Tyler 

My points are not conflicting.  If all things being equal, it will be a no brainer to go for in-house.  If not, we would need to decide on what is important to us such as reliability, finishing, branding, design, etc, etc.  There are no right or wrong answers.  I personally chose the Omega PO with ETA movement rather than their in house 8500 movement as I thought the price increase was unjustified.  However, I also chose the Zenith Stratos Striking 10th over a lower end but comparatively priced  Panerai or IWC with ETA movement (as an example) as I value the in-house El Primero movement and its heritage.  I of course also like the design of both Panerais and IWC as much as the Zenith but I could not justify paying so much money for them as they use slightly modified ETA movements that are also used in other watches costing a fraction of the price.  The El Primero is unique to Zenith (and some early versions of Daytona among others) and the fact that it is made in house with unique complications such as the 1/10th foudrayante made the decision easy for me.  It really is a case by case basis if you factor in other variables.  Go with what is important to you.   

[CKL1213]

For example:

PAM 176 - Caliber OP X (ETA 6497)

Omega PO 232.30.42.21.01.001 - Caliber 8500

PAM pricing is higher than the Omega, IMHO I will choose Omega given that the cheaper price and with in-house movement (some argued that 8500 still doesn't consider as 100% in-house)

[Godzillaz]

Peter, is not just an ETA movement, you also get the integrity of a master watchmaker.

It might be worthless to many ppl but I treasure such thing.

Regard
Tyler

Now this is the type of topic i love.

First in reply to Terrence,
Technically F1 engines are frozen for development.
Teams are only allowed to change engine mapping to suit styles of drivers and the circuit.
NOTHING inside the engine can be changed. As per the rules.

Back to topic i agree with most here.
I would go for reliability first than anything else.
But sometimes the heart takes over and i go for something else.

But dont know if i am lucky or not, usually the newer in house movt are 2x-5x more expensive than their same brand same model eta/soprod/technotime etc equiv.

I think the in flux of in house movt in the market in recent years is due to the eta effect.
Dont know how long each company took to develop their movt and if its been tested or not so thats a gamble on our own.

Do i "look down" on eta modified brands?
Well...if the brand did enough "improvements" and extra time and finishing on it, why not?
Damn...i for one paid for one hell of a an expensive eta modified 2892 watch.

[takashi78]

Tyler,

Agreed. Sometimes to be able to put a face and know the idea and philosophy on what and why each mod is done to the base caliber is very important to me.

Out of curiosity, i seriously didnt know the PD watch was based on a eta.
Which model?

 

[Yikkie]

Haha.   

Aaaa ... ... I get it now.

Thanks to the example you gave. I was a bit lost now is crystal clear. Thanks for taking the time to explain it to a bonehead like me. 

I always thought using in house movement as a criteria for a purchase may not be fool proof. Your experience reinforce my thought.

Thanks again.

Regard
Tyler 

My points are not conflicting.  If all things being equal, it will be a no brainer to go for in-house.  If not, we would need to decide on what is important to us such as reliability, finishing, branding, design, etc, etc.  There are no right or wrong answers.  I personally chose the Omega PO with ETA movement rather than their in house 8500 movement as I thought the price increase was unjustified.  However, I also chose the Zenith Stratos Striking 10th over a lower end but comparatively priced  Panerai or IWC with ETA movement (as an example) as I value the in-house El Primero movement and its heritage.  I of course also like the design of both Panerais and IWC as much as the Zenith but I could not justify paying so much money for them as they use slightly modified ETA movements that are also used in other watches costing a fraction of the price.  The El Primero is unique to Zenith (and some early versions of Daytona among others) and the fact that it is made in house with unique complications such as the 1/10th foudrayante made the decision easy for me.  It really is a case by case basis if you factor in other variables.  Go with what is important to you.   

[Godzillaz]

That's a brilliant plan. You always strike me as a forward thinking but sensible person.

Regard
Tyler

Just like F1 teams using myriad of similar engines with their own inhouse works tuners and engineers to rework it, the watch industries are the same. There are just a handful of "engine" suppliers.

It's just how much you want to rework the calibre and market it out (e.g. IWC, Omega 2500, Ressence, PSM etc)  or just plonk it in with minimal works (Sinn, Bremont, Helson etc) and calling it your own (Panerai unitas and 7750)

Of course the former method requires a deeper pocket and heck load of more patience to own and when maintenance period is up. The do require a more specialised set of parts and know how of the interior workings vs the latter. The time spent away would definitely be much longer which requires sending back to the SCs and not just your neighbourhood certified watchmaker.

Caveat, like what Tyler have brought up would be the supply of parts bin by the manufacturers in time to come. Even an inhouse manufacturer like Rolex does not service it's own watches of more than 30 years. So being inhouse does not guarantee eternal bliss. So does that mean collectors should follow examples of vintage cars lovers in hoarding up rubber seals, door latches, meters and etc?

An ideal world would be having a deep enough pocket to acquire a collection of workhorses and pedigree pieces. While the thoroughbred are away at the spa, you can take the workhorses out for some adventure.

[Enkidu]

Zenith is a sure thing... but as u all know... I am a huge fan... can't always be seen pushing Zenith in front right? lol

Hi, Hanz,

I guess it does no harm to push our old friend Zenith to the front a bit every now and then. When that Felix (what's his full name??) fellow pushed himself from a balloon floating dunno how many miles up the earth reportedly wearing a striking 10th stratos, I believe the interest in this brand stirred quite a bit but that itself has since died down.....

Truly, Zenith is probably one of the least appreciated of all in-house manufacturers. Imagine, in 1999/2000 the Rolex Daytona SS black dial equipped with the EP movement was selling (at premium) close to RM38K if I recall correctly. The Zenith EP chronograph without moonphase could be bought for RM6,9000 without any negotiation and the EP chronograph moonphase for about RM8,500. Hence, the watch with non in-house movement (Daytona, with EP movement but tuned down to 28,800bph) was seling at nearly 600% the price of the watch with in-house movement (Zenith EP Chrono).

Likewise, these days a basic Zenith with its well tested Elite movement (which by the way won the movement of the year award in 1994) could still be bought in the RM 15k++ region  , well below some watches stuffed with UNITAS based movement.

And since you are in the topic of "best value swiss in house", maybe it's also worth mentioning the venerable JLC....... 







Each of the above 2 watches is priced (after the usual miserly discount....) in the same region as a boring Rolex Sub-date (after the usual ridiculous premium!!)...

     

[Godzillaz]

No harm saying what you like as long as it is the truth. 

Regard
Tyler

Zenith is a sure thing... but as u all know... I am a huge fan... can't always be seen pushing Zenith in front right? lol

[terrenceterrence]

But what constitute as "inhouse" nowadays?

Does one consider Breguet, Blancpain, Montblanc and VC "inhouse"? Or certain ACHI member's work as true artisan "inhouse"?

What would happen if let's say...VH passes.. who would you send to work on your pieces? Do you just keep it suspended in a vacuum glass tube with a winder and touch it with white gloves like those pieces of art in the Louvre?

Mass produced "inhouse" is just a marketing ploy to further push up the brand's prestige. But there are pros to it because of the service support it provides.

I always look at the hobby as parallel compared to buying cars. If you worry about maintenance, then buy a "generic" mass produced "inhouse" or ETA equipped watch. If money is of no limit, get yourself a Koenigsegg.

On the polished flipside would be the world of what I would call "prestige inhouse". Now, if I have the capability and cash to plonk in half a million pounds on a wrist piece, the last thing I would worry about is servicing. I would have runners and assistants finding the solution for me.

If it stops, then it's an expensive piece of paperweight that my tax accountants would take care of. Finding ways to make it run again would just be a novelty past time.

[STT1987]

Do others feel the same or is just me being tired of all the lies from these so call in house movement talk.

Call a spade a spade. A lot of the "in-house movement" talk is basically exclusivity snobbery. An ETA based Tudor (cosc chronometer grade etc.) is not as valued as a Rolex. Why? Even with equivalent reliability and finishing? Being a manufacture company with a proprietary movement adds to the snob appeal.

I admit I have fallen prey to it myself, skipping over an IWC chronograph because it was "just another 7750". Knowing what I know now, I regret passing over a huge bargain for something that was not wholly relevant to the overall "value" of the watch for me.
 

The thing is, the valuation of the watch and resale price hinges on the snob appeal. So what a WIS knows as a completely reworked 7750, extensively modified with in-house parts and higher quality finishing will still be only "another Valjoux 7750" as per above to most laymen.

But does it really matter? No one expects a Tissot 7750 based watch to sell at the same price as an IWC 7750 based chronograph. Rather while a manufacture movement adds a premium to the perceived value of a watch - the brand name and reputation trumps over all. That's why IMHO, you don't see a Seiko 5 with the proprietary 7s26 movement being more expensive than a IWC with an ETA movement. Just my opinion and 2sen.

PS: my answer to the original question - I used to but not so much now.

[Godzillaz]

Could not have say it better myself.

I'm sure when VH is not around anymore there will be other master watchmaker to take the job. It's silly to think that the VH or PD type of craftsman only exist in this era.

Another point is that just because something exclusive doesn't automatic qualify itself to be unreliable. More often it means there less or only one service center you can send it for service. Inconvenient perhaps but not entirely unreliable. 

Regard
Tyler

But what constitute as "inhouse" nowadays?

Does one consider Breguet, Blancpain, Montblanc and VC "inhouse"? Or certain ACHI member's work as true artisan "inhouse"?

What would happen if let's say...VH passes.. who would you send to work on your pieces? Do you just keep it suspended in a vacuum glass tube with a winder and touch it with white gloves like those pieces of art in the Louvre?

Mass produced "inhouse" is just a marketing ploy to further push up the brand's prestige. But there are pros to it because of the service support it provides.

I always look at the hobby as parallel compared to buying cars. If you worry about maintenance, then buy a "generic" mass produced "inhouse" or ETA equipped watch. If money is of no limit, get yourself a Koenigsegg.

On the polished flipside would be the world of what I would call "prestige inhouse". Now, if I have the capability and cash to plonk in half a million pounds on a wrist piece, the last thing I would worry about is servicing. I would have runners and assistants finding the solution for me.

If it stops, then it's an expensive piece of paperweight that my tax accountants would take care of. Finding ways to make it run again would just be a novelty past time.

[Yikkie]

The brand name and reputation you said...wouldn't that be falling prey into the marketing hype generated by these brands. It is just moving from movement snobbery to brand snobbery. Look up the actual history of brands like IWC and even Panerai. They are not all that impressive. Brand name and reputation are generated by marketing campaigns...albeit really great ones. A prime example being B&R.

Do others feel the same or is just me being tired of all the lies from these so call in house movement talk.

Call a spade a spade. A lot of the "in-house movement" talk is basically exclusivity snobbery. An ETA based Tudor (cosc chronometer grade etc.) is not as valued as a Rolex. Why? Even with equivalent reliability and finishing? Being a manufacture company with a proprietary movement adds to the snob appeal.

I admit I have fallen prey to it myself, skipping over an IWC chronograph because it was "just another 7750". Knowing what I know now, I regret passing over a huge bargain for something that was not wholly relevant to the overall "value" of the watch for me.
 

The thing is, the valuation of the watch and resale price hinges on the snob appeal. So what a WIS knows as a completely reworked 7750, extensively modified with in-house parts and higher quality finishing will still be only "another Valjoux 7750" as per above to most laymen.

But does it really matter? No one expects a Tissot 7750 based watch to sell at the same price as an IWC 7750 based chronograph. Rather while a manufacture movement adds a premium to the perceived value of a watch - the brand name and reputation trumps over all. That's why IMHO, you don't see a Seiko 5 with the proprietary 7s26 movement being more expensive than a IWC with an ETA movement. Just my opinion and 2sen.

PS: my answer to the original question - I used to but not so much now.

[terrenceterrence]

An affordable iconic inhouse, why not?

But heard LVMH service sucks... Well....

[takashi78]

Good to see it back on the wrist Terrence!

Adjusted the moonphase liao?

Lets see the Georgy strap and the buckle you bought.

Time for a Zenith owners thread perhaps? 

[STT1987]

The brand name and reputation you said...wouldn't that be falling prey into the marketing hype generated by these brands. It is just moving from movement snobbery to brand snobbery.
....

Wearing watches is in its basic form is all about "snobbery". It is just a matter of degrees. If you want to tell time, your hand phone has a clock. If you want to tell time on your wrist, the cheapest digital watch from the nearest pasar malam will do the job adequately (more accurately in fact than most our branded automatic watches). If you want an investment, collecting the usual luxury watches gives terrible returns (even at the million dollar level - there are better forms of investments).

Just what is the degree of exclusivity (or crudely put "snobbery") are you willing to fork out money over? That is the gist of this thread. Whether it is a Zenith chronograph with in-house movement over an Omega heavily modified ETA chronograph? An older Daytona with a zenith movement vs the newer Daytona with an in-house Rolex mechanism? Lots of debate over that one...

There is a reason why WIS means Watch Idiot Savant.