Buying From Overseas Forum

[watzisname]

Dear Hanz

Thank you for the post. It has been enlightening to say the least. As they say, to protect yourself from scammers , first you must learn to scam.

[hanz079]

Ok, enough on ebay.
Back to the original topic of buying from overseas forums.
Based on my experiences... buying and selling.
Both might contradict each other so take it with a bag of salt.

1. As a buyer.
- Do not pay as "gift".
- Check references.
- Ask item to be insured in full (no tax in Malaysia anyway so high value declaration does not matter except until the implementation of GST)
- Label the watch (assuming it's a watch) as "Professional Timing Device" "Scuba Diving Timer" "Chronometer Timer" or something like that, never label it as "watch" to prevent would be thieves.
- Ask for the pictures of the seller packing the watch and seal it with a tape with tamper proof writings.


2. As a seller.
- Always ask to be paid as "gift" (see the contradiction here?) as to NOT let buyers abuse the paypal system and escalate fraudulent claims (although general consensus is paypal will "investigate"... more often or not, buyers have the upperhand)
- If buyer ask you to underdeclare a watch as to lower his import taxes, only agree if he pay you as "gift" and if item gone missing, only refund is the declared value. (now this is abit shady as when both parties agree, the seller has the upperhand now, if you send him a box of rocks... that's it... the buyer is the loser) Reason being:-
1- Buyer can't file a claim as payment is a gift
2- Buyer can file for insurance claim but the claim is only for the declared value (which is low as to avoid taxes)
- From my experience, as of now, poslaju international is a good and cheap way to send watches overseas as it is now fully traceable. Alot of websites like packagetrackr.com can track packages from any courier.

Entering into the deal as a buyer or a seller, one has to understand the risk, loopholes and safeguard oneself against abuse.
Now this is a double edged sword, once u understand the situation from both the buyers and sellers point of view, wether you want to abuse the system or con ppl of a watch or hard earned cash is a choice...

[jason_recliner]

Thanks for clarifying Hanz. 

Personally, I only sell and buy as 'merchandise', only exchange gifts as 'gift'.  I rather do things the 'right' way, but that's just me.

I've been burnt twice now in 6+ years of collecting.  The worst was a trade with a member of TZ-UK.  I sent him two high end G-Shocks in exchange for a Mears, and received nothing.  Never again will I trade unless the other party sends me the item first.  Let's face it, I have 9,000+ posts on WUS, 3,000+ posts on Watchlords... everybody knows who I am, everybody knows they can trust me.  If somebody claims they are worried to send first, I ask "why would they worry?", truth is they aren't worried, they know they can deal with me with 100% confidence.  Alarm bells start to ring.

The other scam was when buying my first MM300 off Ebay, thought I was getting a 'good deal'.  I Paypal'd the funds, nothing was sent.  Paypal was awesome - they took the $$$ back from the dodgy MF and paid straight back into my account.  That's the advantage of doing things the right way. Then I bought a MM300 from a well known collector, paid a little more, but was 100% confident in the service.  And never looked back. 

Buy the seller, not the watch, not the deal.  You may pay a little bit more but you'll get your watch and you'll never be wondering "is it real?"

As for misrepresenting the watch value to avoid duties.  I will do this if the buyer insists, but he must understand that if anything goes wrong, insurance will only cover the stated value, not the true value.  Fine on a cheap watch where insurance is not worth it, but IMO not worth the risk on a pricey watch.  Just my opinion, others are happy to take the risk.  IMO when buying the watch you should consider the possibility of import duty as part of the purchase price, and maybe even insurance on shipping.  Watch arrives and you don't have to pay duty?  Bonus!

If you can't afford to insure a car or house, then you can't really afford that car or house - you need to look at something cheaper.  No different with watches IMO.  Others are less risk averse than me, they have more $$$ to play with, or they like to gamble, or they are just desperate to get the cheapest price no matter the risk, but for me, the stress and worry is not worth it.  If I am already paying thousands of dollars, why not save that little bit more to pay for import duty and insurance?

[tonykpk]

Thanks for clarifying Hanz. 

Personally, I only sell and buy as 'merchandise', only exchange gifts as 'gift'.  I rather do things the 'right' way, but that's just me.

I've been burnt twice now in 6+ years of collecting.  The worst was a trade with a member of TZ-UK.  I sent him two high end G-Shocks in exchange for a Mears, and received nothing.  Never again will I trade unless the other party sends me the item first.  Let's face it, I have 9,000+ posts on WUS, 3,000+ posts on Watchlords... everybody knows who I am, everybody knows they can trust me.  If somebody claims they are worried to send first, I ask "why would they worry?", truth is they aren't worried, they know they can deal with me with 100% confidence.  Alarm bells start to ring.

The other scam was when buying my first MM300 off Ebay, thought I was getting a 'good deal'.  I Paypal'd the funds, nothing was sent.  Paypal was awesome - they took the $$$ back from the dodgy MF and paid straight back into my account.  That's the advantage of doing things the right way. Then I bought a MM300 from a well known collector, paid a little more, but was 100% confident in the service.  And never looked back. 

Buy the seller, not the watch, not the deal.  You may pay a little bit more but you'll get your watch and you'll never be wondering "is it real?"

As for misrepresenting the watch value to avoid duties.  I will do this if the buyer insists, but he must understand that if anything goes wrong, insurance will only cover the stated value, not the true value.  Fine on a cheap watch where insurance is not worth it, but IMO not worth the risk on a pricey watch.  Just my opinion, others are happy to take the risk.  IMO when buying the watch you should consider the possibility of import duty as part of the purchase price, and maybe even insurance on shipping.  Watch arrives and you don't have to pay duty?  Bonus!

If you can't afford to insure a car or house, then you can't really afford that car or house - you need to look at something cheaper.  No different with watches IMO.  Others are less risk averse than me, they have more $$$ to play with, or they like to gamble, or they are just desperate to get the cheapest price no matter the risk, but for me, the stress and worry is not worth it.  If I am already paying thousands of dollars, why not save that little bit more to pay for import duty and insurance?

Hi . To me, pre owned great condition and beautiful watches  doesn't come cheap . Its better to deal f2f or buy the seller cause we have plenty of them in our very own MWF. Do you think pay pal will refund you after receiving something that is not to your satisfaction? Always remember not to be taken in by prices to good to be true.Like the saying goes : if you pay peanuts you get monkeys >> regards tony

me too interested in knowing this... cos i saw few watches in wus n fell in love with its price

Way to go Jason, Dont self inflict stress.regards tony

[dpkong]

My my.. this thread is getting lively indeed!

My rules for buying from overseas forum are:

1. Buy from a trusted seller.

Do your research. Check track records. Some sellers have been know to be "trusted" and suddenly all deals go south from a particular date. Beware of those who take some time to create a reputation and then go for the kill after that.

2. Never send money you cannot afford to lose.

Now this would be the most important bit. As in any case of sending money and then having to wait for the goods to arrive, there is a risk (small or large) that nothing will arrive or you get a box or rocks. If the amount is more than you are willing to write off, pay more at an AD.


Hanz has volunteered information that may sound bad to some members but that's what the truth is like. Distasteful. Thinking that Hanz would do the unthinkable only if you don't know him.


As posted before, I bought and paid by wire transfer amounting over RM30k+ but the seller was reputable and I had researched for some time. It was still 50-50 trust and luck since he could scam me and still get away with it since his reputation was much better than mine. So I count myself lucky.


Always remember Rule #2

[jetstrim]

I had a seller describe as horological device etc,used jewellery.Ended up custome did not understand what horological means and I had to drive all the way to LCCT customs and clarify things.Since then Im just ask them to describe as faulty watch  for repair...they should know what a watch is.dicey but I make sure it's fully insured

[tonykpk]

Dp, A bird in hand is worth more than those free in the bush. Why should we send money for nothing even if we can afford to lose? Buying a watch is not like going to a casino , why should we take 50- 50 risk ? People , i can give you 101 reasons not to buy expensive watches through the mail from overseas but rather buy locally even if it cost slightly higher, in order to sleep well and stress free for days. Dp , maybe you are lucky but what about the countless who got stung but chose not to talk about it. Fikir Fikir. regards tony

My my.. this thread is getting lively indeed!

My rules for buying from overseas forum are:

1. Buy from a trusted seller.

Do your research. Check track records. Some sellers have been know to be "trusted" and suddenly all deals go south from a particular date. Beware of those who take some time to create a reputation and then go for the kill after that.

2. Never send money you cannot afford to lose.

Now this would be the most important bit. As in any case of sending money and then having to wait for the goods to arrive, there is a risk (small or large) that nothing will arrive or you get a box or rocks. If the amount is more than you are willing to write off, pay more at an AD.


Hanz has volunteered information that may sound bad to some members but that's what the truth is like. Distasteful. Thinking that Hanz would do the unthinkable only if you don't know him.


As posted before, I bought and paid by wire transfer amounting over RM30k+ but the seller was reputable and I had researched for some time. It was still 50-50 trust and luck since he could scam me and still get away with it since his reputation was much better than mine. So I count myself lucky.


Always remember Rule #2

[hanz079]

Thanks for clarifying Hanz. 

Personally, I only sell and buy as 'merchandise', only exchange gifts as 'gift'.  I rather do things the 'right' way, but that's just me.

I've been burnt twice now in 6+ years of collecting.  The worst was a trade with a member of TZ-UK.  I sent him two high end G-Shocks in exchange for a Mears, and received nothing.  Never again will I trade unless the other party sends me the item first.  Let's face it, I have 9,000+ posts on WUS, 3,000+ posts on Watchlords... everybody knows who I am, everybody knows they can trust me.  If somebody claims they are worried to send first, I ask "why would they worry?", truth is they aren't worried, they know they can deal with me with 100% confidence.  Alarm bells start to ring.

The other scam was when buying my first MM300 off Ebay, thought I was getting a 'good deal'.  I Paypal'd the funds, nothing was sent.  Paypal was awesome - they took the $$$ back from the dodgy MF and paid straight back into my account.  That's the advantage of doing things the right way. Then I bought a MM300 from a well known collector, paid a little more, but was 100% confident in the service.  And never looked back. 

Buy the seller, not the watch, not the deal.  You may pay a little bit more but you'll get your watch and you'll never be wondering "is it real?"

As for misrepresenting the watch value to avoid duties.  I will do this if the buyer insists, but he must understand that if anything goes wrong, insurance will only cover the stated value, not the true value.  Fine on a cheap watch where insurance is not worth it, but IMO not worth the risk on a pricey watch.  Just my opinion, others are happy to take the risk.  IMO when buying the watch you should consider the possibility of import duty as part of the purchase price, and maybe even insurance on shipping.  Watch arrives and you don't have to pay duty?  Bonus!

If you can't afford to insure a car or house, then you can't really afford that car or house - you need to look at something cheaper.  No different with watches IMO.  Others are less risk averse than me, they have more $$$ to play with, or they like to gamble, or they are just desperate to get the cheapest price no matter the risk, but for me, the stress and worry is not worth it.  If I am already paying thousands of dollars, why not save that little bit more to pay for import duty and insurance?

Sad thing about dealings in forums is you are only as good as your last deal.
It doesn't matter if the person has 10000 posts or 1000 positive feedback... when the time that someone decides to scam... he will say that he is an old timer, senior member and etc... but truth is we will never know.
Having a wall of references does not mean that he is automatically innocent.

I am used to buying from a few reputable sellers overseas... paid by wire transfer... risky? Yes.
Now even so, I know what I am getting myself into.
If that particular person decided to pull a fast one and so unlucky that it's on me, then what do I have?
Even if I am the innocent party, because of the huge amount of posts and feedbacks the seller has, does it automatically mean I am guilty? No.
But that's the point... IF he wants pull a fast one, who better then someone who lives a couple of thousand miles away and absolutely no chance of me getting my plight heard?

I remember a couple of years back, someone over at WUS got conned. A fellow Malaysian but working in China iirc.
The Malaysian has next to no feedback and is pretty new.
Seller was considered reputable in the US.
Maybe he thought it was a good idea to scam someone as far as China but the Malaysian was adamant.
At 1st, his complaints all fell of deaf ears... ppl even coming out to say that HE was the scammer.
Imagine the stress and anger.
But he persisted and somehow got hold of some evidence.
He was exonerated at the end but still, it's against a username on cyberspace... the scammer can still make a comeback by just being patient, create a new handle and start being active in posting... do some small seiko deals, strap deals and when his reputation grew, there he go again...
Like I said, there is no guarantee.

I too would like to agree with Donald's view, only enter into the deal being prepared to lose whatever you have committed. It's not that we are rich and have money to burn.
It's that certain people have different threshold towards risk.
Some take more, some avoid it altogether.

[jason_recliner]

I get what you're saying, Mr. Kong, and you're right, but for those of us who are well established members, who are part of the community and not just random traders or unknowns, I think the risk is close enough to zero.  We meet face to face, we go to each other's houses, hell I have even bought a reasonably expensive (US$500+) watch for a fellow collector, with him paying me cash in advance, because he didn't want his wife to see the transaction on his credit card

We help each other pout with things like US Only deals, we send each other free stuff, we get drunk with each other... we know our characters.  One of these guys has an emergency and needs a vehicle for a weekend?  No problem mate, take my keys.  I'll get the car back Monday, or whenever he doesn't need it any more.  I have standing invitations to stay with collectors all over the world - just gotta jump on a plane.

Is there risk?  More risk that a bank will scam you than one of those guys.

[2ndOpinion]

To each his own I know but as far as watches are concerned, I take a stance similar to those who would only deal in person. That's because I'm anal over condition and completeness which I am not prepared to sacrifice, or risk sacrificing, for a lower price. Correction, at any price.

I'm not as fearful of deceptive and fraudulent practices by sellers as highlighted, but do harbour this morbid fear of a custom officer's mishandling of the watch during inspection resulting in a dent, ding, scratch or whatever. And/or inadvertently misplacing the vital original papers after the inspection. Too many people I know have shared their sad and nerve wrecking experiences along those lines - all tempted by online prices too good to shrug off.

I guess if one is not as anal or as neurotic lol, an online purchase driven solely by low price makes perfect sense.

[Jules Vega]

My head's spinning now.......the information is just way too much....and all I wanted was some quick advice on purchasing a "cheapish" watch on WUS....lol 

But man, this forum is informative, and I thank you for all the effort in sharing...it really does help a lot (in a good way I mean).....  

[JeepWH]

My head's spinning now.......the information is just way too much....and all I wanted was some quick advice on purchasing a "cheapish" watch on WUS....lol 

But man, this forum is informative, and I thank you for all the effort in sharing...it really does help a lot (in a good way I mean).....  

No sweat man, we are all here to learn and help. 

Good luck to you. 

[TheHobbit]

2. Never send money you cannot afford to lose.

To me, best advise ever.

[JeepWH]

2. Never send money you cannot afford to lose.

To me, best advise ever.

Agreed.

[jason_recliner]

To each his own I know but as far as watches are concerned, I take a stance similar to those who would only deal in person. That's because I'm anal over condition and completeness which I am not prepared to sacrifice, or risk sacrificing, for a lower price. Correction, at any price.

I'm not as fearful of deceptive and fraudulent practices by sellers as highlighted, but do harbour this morbid fear of a custom officer's mishandling of the watch during inspection resulting in a dent, ding, scratch or whatever. And/or inadvertently misplacing the vital original papers after the inspection. Too many people I know have shared their sad and nerve wrecking experiences along those lines - all tempted by online prices too good to shrug off.

I guess if one is not as anal or as neurotic lol, an online purchase driven solely by low price makes perfect sense.

Your OCD  / neurosis is not about the risk of buying online, but buying used.  Most used watches will have signs of use.  You need to buy new, that's all.

[JeepWH]

To each his own I know but as far as watches are concerned, I take a stance similar to those who would only deal in person. That's because I'm anal over condition and completeness which I am not prepared to sacrifice, or risk sacrificing, for a lower price. Correction, at any price.

I'm not as fearful of deceptive and fraudulent practices by sellers as highlighted, but do harbour this morbid fear of a custom officer's mishandling of the watch during inspection resulting in a dent, ding, scratch or whatever. And/or inadvertently misplacing the vital original papers after the inspection. Too many people I know have shared their sad and nerve wrecking experiences along those lines - all tempted by online prices too good to shrug off.

I guess if one is not as anal or as neurotic lol, an online purchase driven solely by low price makes perfect sense.

Your OCD  / neurosis is not about the risk of buying online, but buying used.  Most used watches will have signs of use.  You need to buy new, that's all.

 

[dpkong]

Dp, A bird in hand is worth more than those free in the bush. Why should we send money for nothing even if we can afford to lose? Buying a watch is not like going to a casino , why should we take 50- 50 risk ? People , i can give you 101 reasons not to buy expensive watches through the mail from overseas but rather buy locally even if it cost slightly higher, in order to sleep well and stress free for days. Dp , maybe you are lucky but what about the countless who got stung but chose not to talk about it. Fikir Fikir. regards tony

Tony,

It's fine if you prefer face-to-face deals for your watches but there are adventurers among us who like a particular model or dial which is not readily available locally or a very good condition piece. For eg., the Daytona I bought was only 3 months old then, with many stickers still on it but priced better than local 5 year old, used pieces. How to resist?

"Why should we send money for nothing" is interesting because then you're looking only at your side of the deal. A seller would also not ship out his goods before getting paid. Once he hands the package over to the shipping agent, his side of the deal is complete.

The people in the world need to learn to trust more, but not blindly.

[2ndOpinion]

To each his own I know but as far as watches are concerned, I take a stance similar to those who would only deal in person. That's because I'm anal over condition and completeness which I am not prepared to sacrifice, or risk sacrificing, for a lower price. Correction, at any price.

I'm not as fearful of deceptive and fraudulent practices by sellers as highlighted, but do harbour this morbid fear of a custom officer's mishandling of the watch during inspection resulting in a dent, ding, scratch or whatever. And/or inadvertently misplacing the vital original papers after the inspection. Too many people I know have shared their sad and nerve wrecking experiences along those lines - all tempted by online prices too good to shrug off.

I guess if one is not as anal or as neurotic lol, an online purchase driven solely by low price makes perfect sense.

Your OCD  / neurosis is not about the risk of buying online, but buying used.  Most used watches will have signs of use.  You need to buy new, that's all.

Lol....did I anywhere allude to the fact that my fears stem from buying used? Would and could not that fear apply to buying new?  Shed in another light, would not the risk of buying online pertain not just to deception and fraud but as importantly the dissatisfaction with the condition and completeness of the watch new, used or otherwise upon collection?

[jason_recliner]

Lol....did I anywhere allude to the fact that my fears stem from buying used?

No, but that's my point.

Would and could not that fear apply to buying new? 

Not for me, but for you it obviously does.  Whenever I've bought something new online, it has always arrived in new condition.  And this goes for everybody I know.  I've never heard of anybody buying anything new, and it arriving in used condition, apart from Invictas with the hands fallen off and floating around under the crystal.

(damn UPS!!!  )

Occasionally you read about a watch that arrives with the regulation out of whack, presumably from a bump or magnetisation during shipping, but even this is extremely rare.  And it's not really a case of the item showing wear, just minor internal disruption which can be easily, cheaply, and quickly rectified by any watchmaker.  Generally, you pay for new, you receive new, be it an online or face to face transaction.

There's no right or wrong here.  Some of us are comfortable with Paypaling hundreds or even thousands of dollars and waiting for our watch (or other item to be delivered) to be delivered.  Some of us are worried about scams and so insist on face to face.  I've never heard of anyone being afraid to buy a new item online in case it is delivered with wear evident, I could not live like that, but that doesn't mean you're wrong, you need to do what you feel comfortable with. 

[JeepWH]

Lol....did I anywhere allude to the fact that my fears stem from buying used?

No, but that's my point.

Would and could not that fear apply to buying new? 

Not for me, but for you it obviously does.  Whenever I've bought something new online, it has always arrived in new condition.  And this goes for everybody I know.  I've never heard of anybody buying anything new, and it arriving in used condition, apart from Invictas with the hands fallen off and floating around under the crystal.

(damn UPS!!!  )

Occasionally you read about a watch that arrives with the regulation out of whack, presumably from a bump or magnetisation during shipping, but even this is extremely rare.  And it's not really a case of the item showing wear, just minor internal disruption which can be easily, cheaply, and quickly rectified by any watchmaker.  Generally, you pay for new, you receive new, be it an online or face to face transaction.

There's no right or wrong here.  Some of us are comfortable with Paypaling hundreds or even thousands of dollars and waiting for our watch (or other item to be delivered) to be delivered.  Some of us are worried about scams and so insist on face to face.  I've never heard of anyone being afraid to buy a new item online in case it is delivered with wear evident, I could not live like that, but that doesn't mean you're wrong, you need to do what you feel comfortable with.

Well said, and agreed.

[2ndOpinion]

Lol....did I anywhere allude to the fact that my fears stem from buying used?

No, but that's my point.

Would and could not that fear apply to buying new? 

Not for me, but for you it obviously does.  Whenever I've bought something new online, it has always arrived in new condition.  And this goes for everybody I know.  I've never heard of anybody buying anything new, and it arriving in used condition, apart from Invictas with the hands fallen off and floating around under the crystal.

(damn UPS!!!  )

Occasionally you read about a watch that arrives with the regulation out of whack, presumably from a bump or magnetisation during shipping, but even this is extremely rare.  And it's not really a case of the item showing wear, just minor internal disruption which can be easily, cheaply, and quickly rectified by any watchmaker.  Generally, you pay for new, you receive new, be it an online or face to face transaction.

There's no right or wrong here.  Some of us are comfortable with Paypaling hundreds or even thousands of dollars and waiting for our watch (or other item to be delivered) to be delivered.  Some of us are worried about scams and so insist on face to face.  I've never heard of anyone being afraid to buy a new item online in case it is delivered with wear evident, I could not live like that, but that doesn't mean you're wrong, you need to do what you feel comfortable with. 

It would appear your response is out of context with my original assertion. Please allow me to repeat myself. I was asserting that my discomfort was not receiving a watch in the expected condition and completeness owing to mishandling stemming from the custom's inspection process - not vendor deception or fraud. And it doesn't matter if the watch is used or new.

Your contention's that if I buy new, I should get new with "no wear evident" - if the obvious has to be stated. No arguments there. But that's not my contention lol. Whether I buy new or used, it's still subject to the custom's mishandling risk resulting in dings, dents etc compounded by misplaced documentation. That's my contention for not buying new or used watches online. So your contention on "buy new, get new" is not what I am saying all along lol. But hold your horses (pun intended for horsey year) sir! Your contention should not challenge but augment mine - I mean aren't we both correct, albeit divergently, in the final analysis? Lol.

[JeepWH]

I did order one before, and it was not inspected by customs at all. As long as all papers are in order, its usually not inspected, especially when it is sent using FedEx or DHL

[jason_recliner]

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear.  I get that you are worried that customs staff may damage the watch while inspecting it.  I just consider that likelihood to be infinitesimally small.  If I was going to worry about that, I would be worried about pretty much every remote possibility in day to day life, many of which have far greater reaching ramifications than a ding on a watch.  But yes, as you say we are both "correct", as there is no 'right' or 'wrong' when it comes to this passion of ours. 

Enjoy your watches 

It would appear your response is out of context with my original assertion. Please allow me to repeat myself. I was asserting that my discomfort was not receiving a watch in the expected condition and completeness owing to mishandling stemming from the custom's inspection process - not vendor deception or fraud. And it doesn't matter if the watch is used or new.

Your contention's that if I buy new, I should get new with "no wear evident" - if the obvious has to be stated. No arguments there. But that's not my contention lol. Whether I buy new or used, it's still subject to the custom's mishandling risk resulting in dings, dents etc compounded by misplaced documentation. That's my contention for not buying new or used watches online. So your contention on "buy new, get new" is not what I am saying all along lol. But hold your horses (pun intended for horsey year) sir! Your contention should not challenge but augment mine - I mean aren't we both correct, albeit divergently, in the final analysis? Lol.

[contender]

Good info you have provided Hanz .... learn something new about the risks when buying online

[JeepWH]

All in all, the information provided here is good for those who wants to buy online.