The Conglomerates vs The Independents

[rainmaker81]

Hey guys,

I have a few burning questions to ask the fellow collectors here. As I'm sure you are aware, many watch companies are branches or subdivisions of a larger luxury goods companies. I gather that at least 80% of luxury watch brands are principally owned by 3 big conglomerates, namely SWATCH group (BlancPain, Omega, Breguet, Longines, Tissot, Glashutte Original etc), Richemont (Panerai, Cartier, VC, JLC, IWC, MontBlanc etc) and LVMH group (Hublot, Zenith, Tag, Bulgari etc). Only a handful of luxury brands today such as AP, Rolex, and Patek are still owned by independent watch makers. My questions are:

(1) Do you think such ownership structure makes the independent brands more desirable and exclusive than the conglomerate brands given their lineages and history?

(2) Will you be influenced (even slightly) by this fact in your decision making process? I personally don't like the idea that GO, Tissot and swatch watches share the same parent. 

(3) If given a choice between a conglomerate brand watch and an independent brand watch - all other things being equal - which would you choose?

I want to do a poll with regard to que 3 but dont know how to create one. 

[STT1987]

1) I buy the watch/brand not the company or management structure. Specifically the watch design that attracts my attention that fits into my preferences for my collection. In my case, my preferences fit the watches produced by Omega, Breitling and Panerai. I do not care if the watch comes from an independent company or his owned by a conglomerate. It does not matter to me nor it affects any aspect of my decision. So, no - being "independent" or in a company group, does not make it more or less "desirable" or "exclusive" in my eyes.

2) No, none whatsoever. The management structure of the company running the brand of my watch has nothing to do with my purchasing decisions. I don't care if Omega has financial connections to Swatch.

3) I buy the watch not the company. All things being equal, I will buy the watch that suits my fancy.

The only thing that will affect my purchasing decision is if the CEO or upper management of the company is some crazy guy that kill puppies and kittens or is some crazy religious fanatic. In that case, I will not contribute money to some company that is harmful to society etc. or something like that.

[G.MAC]

I agree with bro STT1987. Desirability of a watch doesnt change with the ownership of the brand. In many brands, there are low and high range. This is so that they can suit many different people's taste and budget. I use to think that I would buy what i truly desire. But being someone obssessed with collecting something new and upgrading, I now make resale value as part of my criteria as well. That is the only way I cant afford to keep this hobby going as I can afford to outrightly purchased new pieces each time. So to answer question no.3 it doesnt matter who owns the brand, if I like what I see and it has good resale value I would not hesitate to purchase it if the budget allows for it.

[JOS2012]

this applies to all products i.e. automobiles, luxury goods, etc  not just watches…

altho owned by the same parent, it is only in terms of financial backing and accountability…
all companies are still run by respective CEOs using their original DNA and branding characteristics….
Only pricing and brand levels are determined by the holding company..

does it mean you wont buy an Audi,Porsche or Bugatti just because Skoda is also in the same VW group or you wont buy a Ferrari because it is under the same group owned by Fiat ?

[TheHobbit]

No real impact on me. Only concern is after sales service when it comes to servicing. Hope it does not come down to a one stop shop for all the brands or one artisan handling a few brands.

[euclidorus]

Most watch companies started off as independents and via market forces and cyles, they evolve into the current structure. Each of the brands within large conglomerates strife to operate like an independent, in particular those premium brands. They do so in order to communicate the history, pedigree and values to their target consumers. Very important for them to execute that well so they continue to connect and remain relevant. On the other hand, the independents bring a level of passion and individualism that appeals to many looking for a difference and unique factor.

So the simple answer to your question is that the issue of a watch being part of a conglomerate or being independent does not matter in purchasing decision. The issue also does not make one brand more or less desirable/exclusive than others. Ultimately, it is how each brand is able to connect to the consumers' emotion, value-quotient and design appeal that determines buying behaviour.

[Godzillaz]

Simple answer is no or else these conglomerate would setup up different entity to own these separate brand and hide behind the curtain. The fact that they don't is because just because a brand is an independent doesn't mean their watch can sell.

Hey guys,

I have a few burning questions to ask the fellow collectors here. As I'm sure you are aware, many watch companies are branches or subdivisions of a larger luxury goods companies. I gather that at least 80% of luxury watch brands are principally owned by 3 big conglomerates, namely SWATCH group (BlancPain, Omega, Breguet, Longines, Tissot, Glashutte Original etc), Richemont (Panerai, Cartier, VC, JLC, IWC, MontBlanc etc) and LVMH group (Hublot, Zenith, Tag, Bulgari etc). Only a handful of luxury brands today such as AP, Rolex, and Patek are still owned by independent watch makers. My questions are:

(1) Do you think such ownership structure makes the independent brands more desirable and exclusive than the conglomerate brands given their lineages and history?

Even if the watch look great and price is a bargain? Hmm ....

(2) Will you be influenced (even slightly) by this fact in your decision making process? I personally don't like the idea that GO, Tissot and swatch watches share the same parent. 

This question is pointless. Explain how could there ever be a situation where 2 watch brand produce a same equal watch. Price maybe but same exterior and internal movement? You must be joking.

(3) If given a choice between a conglomerate brand watch and an independent brand watch - all other things being equal - which would you choose?

I want to do a poll with regard to que 3 but dont know how to create one. 

Regard
Tyler

[meoramri]

Buy the watch....period. Don't even think about second hand value - this is the hidden trap that forces you to re-look at obvious brands with substantial PR budget

[Gigi]

Buy the watch....period. Don't even think about second hand value - this is the hidden trap that forces you to re-look at obvious brands with substantial PR budget

Seconded 

As long you are buying to keep, then buy the watch that sings to you. If you cereal flipper than its a totally different story alltogether 

[GMTmaster]

I suspect there are price fixing motive for large conglomerates to own severals brands under their sleeves. They position different brands to target different markets so as to maximise their group profits. Sharing market informations, hardware resources, R&D, financial flexibilities etc... The benefits far outweighs the fact that each individual brands competing each others. It is good for the country as well (Swiss). 

Felt like we are slaves to those conglomerates. But this is a luxury item right? Err... can't complain!!!

[Cocas]

I owned few basic and middle range watches from both "Conglomerate" and "Independent". I always buy their basic and most simple watch to test their qualities first before i decided to buy their premium range watch.

Regardless Conglomerate or Independent, if they cannot even perfect its simple/basic range watch, it is totally pointless for me to pursue its upper or premium range watches.

Below are the examples that i owned and tested the basic then proceed to the premium range:
1. Tissot PR100 (basic) - Tissot Carson 18k
2. Seiko skx diver / monster (basic) - MM300
3. Ball Ohio (basic) -  Ball EHC

Below are those watch brands that i tested their basic range but will  not proceed further:
1. Mido
2. Certina
3. Oris
4. Steinhart

Below are those basic watches tested with satisfactory and will proceed further to its premium range:
1. Titoni
2. Epos
3. Citizen
4. Seiko non-diver

[asimo]

i think those conglomerate HQ may set some "Strategic directions"  to Brands under their portfolio eg.
pricing, marketing, after sales service/availability of parts, uses of proprietary movements/parts/
straps/etc, designs style...

is interesting to read G.MAC view on the resale... sometimes i also have the same feeling... hope
you can share some of the brands/models that have resale value ... as far as i know only
Rolex (sub, daytona, GMT2) and basic panerai models "depreciate" less.... i am keen to find
out more too 

There actually many independent watch makers... probably their profit margins not set to high due to
limited marketing/advertising/less celebrity endorsement/sponsorship..

Independents i bought before is the Fortis, Ball, Solvil Titus..   quite reasonably priced..quality on par
with conglomerate.

Other indepedent companies i can think of including Maurice Lacroix, Frederique Constant, Raymond Weil,
Breitling, Longines (not sure),  Certina,  Vulcain,  Oris, Sinn, Stowa, Poljot, Laco, Azimuth, etc  and the high end such as HYT, Speake Marin,
Urwerks, M&BF, BRM, etc..