Author Topic: The myth of value retaining? Where we go next?  (Read 31973 times)

Offline pexus

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Re: The myth of value retaining? Where we go next?
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2012, 08:22:56 PM »
I was once attracted to stories how people buy watches and later make a profit when selling....but later realized that this practice is not straightforward and easy.
Many of the how-to's of making money from watches are beyond  normal person like me.

I do learn one thing though....  Avoiding impulsive purchases and the willingness to look everywhere (on line sites, contacts, pm MWF members.. ;D) while hunting for THE piece can help cut losses in this hobby.

Kids? easy...my genius plan is  try best to make sure they do well in life....and when they become successful, I will put on my pity face on my 60th birthday and tell them how "Daddy worked so hard but never owned a Daytona...and even if you buy Daddy a Daytona...one day it will be yours or your children.''...
so its possible kids can be a good investment... :Laughing_on_floor: :Laughing_on_floor:
« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 08:26:13 PM by pexus »
`Learning to appreciate my watch as a tool, and not some fancy branded jewelry'

Offline IWCking

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Re: The myth of value retaining? Where we go next?
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2012, 08:56:46 PM »
Well, I have no shadow of doubt on all your comments whatsoever. Indeed, I always highlight to new comers that if they r concerned about 'value' dont indulge in watches. For record purpose, I never buy watches as investment. My point is that, say 5 years ago, if I buy a Pam says at 16k, I know for sure that if i am sicked of it later, I could resell it easily at 12k a year later. Loss is always inevitable. But you see, the problem is the 'same pam" which worths 16k 5 years ago is going at say 21k now due to price adjustment and lower discount. Yet, if i am buying it now and dispose it a year later, yes you hear me, rm12k.

That keeps me wonder and posed this question on what you guys, watch enthusiastics think and view. Well, I couldnt care the less if U asked me few years back. Collection is collection. But in hindsight now, since watches are getting more and more expensive, I am wondering if we should just go ahead and be happy about it. Watch collection is a pretty much uncurable poison. When u have a basic Pam 104, you may want to grab and own 8 days and 10 days. When u have a TH carrera, you may set your eyes balls on say Omega Seamaster or Rollie Submariner eventually.

Well, its a bit hard to compare watches with other consumable products like handbags and cars. When we buy cars, tv, fridges etc, we use it for several years, we will get it replace and never bother about its value anymore. But i guess what i make watches more interesting especially the mechanical watch is that if you taking good care of it, it will last.

In short, i just wanna open up this healthy discussion about how you guys think about watch collection in mid to long run. Guess this poison has no cure unless u quit it eventually. But its always easier say than done and our poison just get deeper and deeper arent we? lol.
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Offline Godzillaz

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Re: The myth of value retaining? Where we go next?
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2012, 09:23:40 PM »
Well, I have no shadow of doubt on all your comments whatsoever. Indeed, I always highlight to new comers that if they r concerned about 'value' dont indulge in watches. For record purpose, I never buy watches as investment. My point is that, say 5 years ago, if I buy a Pam says at 16k, I know for sure that if i am sicked of it later, I could resell it easily at 12k a year later. Loss is always inevitable. But you see, the problem is the 'same pam" which worths 16k 5 years ago is going at say 21k now due to price adjustment and lower discount. Yet, if i am buying it now and dispose it a year later, yes you hear me, rm12k.

That keeps me wonder and posed this question on what you guys, watch enthusiastics think and view. Well, I couldnt care the less if U asked me few years back. Collection is collection. But in hindsight now, since watches are getting more and more expensive, I am wondering if we should just go ahead and be happy about it. Watch collection is a pretty much uncurable poison. When u have a basic Pam 104, you may want to grab and own 8 days and 10 days. When u have a TH carrera, you may set your eyes balls on say Omega Seamaster or Rollie Submariner eventually.

Well, its a bit hard to compare watches with other consumable products like handbags and cars. When we buy cars, tv, fridges etc, we use it for several years, we will get it replace and never bother about its value anymore. But i guess what i make watches more interesting especially the mechanical watch is that if you taking good care of it, it will last.

In short, i just wanna open up this healthy discussion about how you guys think about watch collection in mid to long run. Guess this poison has no cure unless u quit it eventually. But its always easier say than done and our poison just get deeper and deeper arent we? lol.

Well ... not entirely true but I would agree with you on most situation your thought is correct. A basic unlimited always available model would do badly on the used market because people always think it's available and take their own sweet time. Unless the demand caught up price remain flat. True on most collectibles.

On your question watches getting more and more expansive. Actually what isn't? The world is on to a high inflation future with all these central bank flushing money into the system. The funny thing is all this will come to pass in a decade or less. The swiss will find out that customer stop buying their over-hype under-deliver product that they have to either step up the game or introduce lower price model. Some company will get swallow and others will go under.

In the mean time I have stop buying new model for most watch brand until the quality and price ratio return a more acceptable rate.

MAN! Do you know the current price of a 2 tone Omega Lady Constellation quartz? It's almost insane.

Regards
T


Offline IWCking

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Re: The myth of value retaining? Where we go next?
« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2012, 09:31:54 PM »
I bought one omega lady constellation automatic 7 years ago. Lol. I know the price is absolutely insane now. Imagine I still got 2X +5% back then :)

Yeah, I absolutely agreed with your point. Yet, some people keep saying 'early buy early enjoy'. So in a way, its a catch 22 position for collectors like us. Less than 5 years and u notice that the price have gone up easily 50%, so one either caught admiring and keep thinking about the dream watch or break the bank account. Tough choice. Thats the dilemma for collector isnt it????
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Offline dpkong

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Re: The myth of value retaining? Where we go next?
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2012, 10:01:45 PM »
if you're looking at watches as a collecting hobby like coins and stamps, then put a value on the satisfaction of owning it for the time that you have it. let's say, RM50 for every time that you pick it up to wind and admire it. RM200 for every day that you wear it.

then the losses do seem to become profits...

 :Cheers:

Offline Angryrodent

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Re: The myth of value retaining? Where we go next?
« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2012, 10:46:42 PM »
Well worst case scenario.. you get fired or really need cash then watches are oki.. quite easy to sell and even with a loss youve enjoyed them while you had them so worth it
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Offline rusminag

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Re: The myth of value retaining? Where we go next?
« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2012, 09:18:07 AM »
I've said it before and will do it again... go to the toilet u have nothing to read... its boring! unless you have a watch then you can just sit and admire while doing your other "bussines". If you want a good investment plan.. skip uni start your own company and live in malaysia because you can get great food for almost no money
Totally agree... Appreciating my Tudor Heritage Chrono more when doing my 'business'.. :Laughing_on_floor: :Laughing_on_floor: :Laughing_on_floor:
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Offline bwee

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Re: The myth of value retaining? Where we go next?
« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2012, 10:37:31 AM »
-1 why one should think twice about buying pre-owned  :mooning:

Offline JPSP

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Re: The myth of value retaining? Where we go next?
« Reply #33 on: April 03, 2012, 01:40:34 PM »
buying watches rarely make money for owners  ...unless you're a parallel importer/dealer when you buy many pieces regardless of whether they're popular ones or not from the source to enjoy hefty discounts + tax refunds. You've to buy both popular and not popular ones which is one of the "criteria". Then sell them to locals to profit. Deep pockets to start with and a risky business.

new watches lose money once you step out of the shop. Simple. Here's how the pre-owned dealer works> They'll take in your new watches at 20%-35% of the retail price and then mark up 20-30% as profits. The pre-owned piece will then costs only 50% of the retail price, making it attractive to buy.

Besides, you need to also factor in the servicing/overhaul of the watches and that's not cheap. my recent overhaul of PP and AP costs me S$5.5K. Typically, those better known swiss brands will cost at least S$600 to service. imagine if you own 10-20 pieces of the watches...how much will servicing cost you'll need to foot?  :o

If you add up all these, there's no way the value retains.

It's just a hobby that provides intrinsic value that money cannot measure. As long as we're clear about it, we'll be happy and resale value will be the last thing in your mind.

Cheers

Offline silverstan

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Re: The myth of value retaining? Where we go next?
« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2012, 01:48:09 PM »
buying watches rarely make money for owners  ...unless you're a parallel importer/dealer when you buy many pieces regardless of whether they're popular ones or not from the source to enjoy hefty discounts + tax refunds. You've to buy both popular and not popular ones which is one of the "criteria". Then sell them to locals to profit. Deep pockets to start with and a risky business.

new watches lose money once you step out of the shop. Simple. Here's how the pre-owned dealer works> They'll take in your new watches at 20%-35% of the retail price and then mark up 20-30% as profits. The pre-owned piece will then costs only 50% of the retail price, making it attractive to buy.

Besides, you need to also factor in the servicing/overhaul of the watches and that's not cheap. my recent overhaul of PP and AP costs me S$5.5K. Typically, those better known swiss brands will cost at least S$600 to service. imagine if you own 10-20 pieces of the watches...how much will servicing cost you'll need to foot?  :o

If you add up all these, there's no way the value retains.

It's just a hobby that provides intrinsic value that money cannot measure. As long as we're clear about it, we'll be happy and resale value will be the last thing in your mind.

Cheers

wow... a complicated watch? If this applied to basic movement... i think i better stay away from these brands...

Offline Angryrodent

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Re: The myth of value retaining? Where we go next?
« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2012, 10:03:41 PM »
"It's just a hobby that provides intrinsic value that money cannot measure. As long as we're clear about it, we'll be happy and resale value will be the last thing in your mind" i couldnt agree more! i collect alot of stuff watches fishing gear golf clubs movies lp's... I know its stupid but aslong as i pay for the kids school the gas for the car etc,, and knows my wife spends atleast as much, I love it. and giving to charity all the time cause otherwise id feel like an a'hole... and if we dont buy watches in the end we will hafta buy crap cause none of the craftmen who actually do them will be able to their amazing work!
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Offline IWCking

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Re: The myth of value retaining? Where we go next?
« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2012, 10:22:35 PM »
Servicing is very costly indeed. A normal service with a simple chronograph is going to cost a bomb. Watch collection is very expensive hobby indeed. I went to check normal service for a gerald genta, well, above rm2k, just a retrograde with no other complication.  :Startled:

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Offline dennis.T

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Re: The myth of value retaining? Where we go next?
« Reply #37 on: April 04, 2012, 06:27:17 AM »
Silverstan, I think JPSP is refer to his PP 5711 & AP ROO... Have you send your PP for servicing before? What the damage?

Offline siodee

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Re: The myth of value retaining? Where we go next?
« Reply #38 on: April 04, 2012, 08:50:19 AM »
This argument is happening almost every year, just different subject title, but the contents more or less the same. I agreed with most the comments here, until I watched "The Pawn Shop". This fat-ass guy is making money from selling the watch, the rarest the better, but he still make $$$ selling all the other brand too.

You want to make $$$ selling the watches, be the Pawn shop boss  :Laughing_on_floor:
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Offline Enkidu

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Re: The myth of value retaining? Where we go next?
« Reply #39 on: April 04, 2012, 10:25:11 AM »
I've said it before and will do it again... go to the toilet u have nothing to read... its boring! unless you have a watch then you can just sit and admire while doing your other "bussines". If you want a good investment plan.. skip uni start your own company and live in malaysia because you can get great food for almost no money

I admire your bravery, Mr. Rodent. I wouldn't dare to bring my watches into the toilet. I have butter fingers, as I admire it whilst doing my other business, it may just slip through my fingers and fall into the you-know-where. Then it's investment down the toilet, literally. Moreover, all the noxious gases in the toilet are also harmful to the watch. Ammonia is very soluble in water and vapour; will stick and damage the gaskets and find its way into the watch and damage the expensive movements, literally dissolving your investment......

Offline IWCking

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Re: The myth of value retaining? Where we go next?
« Reply #40 on: April 04, 2012, 03:02:11 PM »
Totally agreed endiku. I think the best companion for business is "ipad" and not watch  ;D
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Offline Godzillaz

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Re: The myth of value retaining? Where we go next?
« Reply #41 on: April 04, 2012, 03:10:36 PM »
I've said it before and will do it again... go to the toilet u have nothing to read... its boring! unless you have a watch then you can just sit and admire while doing your other "bussines". If you want a good investment plan.. skip uni start your own company and live in malaysia because you can get great food for almost no money

I admire your bravery, Mr. Rodent. I wouldn't dare to bring my watches into the toilet. I have butter fingers, as I admire it whilst doing my other business, it may just slip through my fingers and fall into the you-know-where. Then it's investment down the toilet, literally. Moreover, all the noxious gases in the toilet are also harmful to the watch. Ammonia is very soluble in water and vapour; will stick and damage the gaskets and find its way into the watch and damage the expensive movements, literally dissolving your investment......

I beg the differ. Nothing beats timing the descend of your "output" before it hits the water. One of the two best way to use a chronograph. Other one is timing the duration of the "splash".  :D

Investment? What investment? You mean like saving plans and unit trust? Those go down to the toilet much faster.  :-\

Regards
T

Offline Enkidu

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Re: The myth of value retaining? Where we go next?
« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2012, 03:52:33 PM »


I beg the differ. Nothing beats timing the descend of your "output" before it hits the water. One of the two best way to use a chronograph. Other one is timing the duration of the "splash".  :D
[/quote]

If you are able to time the descend of the output before it hits the water, I guess you must be using the 1/100th sec seiko quartz stopwatch. Don't think the El Primero can even do that. Otherwise, you must have invested all your money to build the deepest toilet plunge in the world, as deep as Grand Canyon. Are you sure you can still hear the splash??? and make sure to account for the speed of the sound travelling back from the bottom???  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Timing the duration of the splash????:o :o :o :o :o No wonder your handle reads "Godzilla"...... I salute you!!  :Startled: :Startled: :Startled:

 

Offline Godzillaz

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Re: The myth of value retaining? Where we go next?
« Reply #43 on: April 04, 2012, 07:07:19 PM »
LOL. Grand Canyon toilet bowl. That's funny.

Regards
T


I beg the differ. Nothing beats timing the descend of your "output" before it hits the water. One of the two best way to use a chronograph. Other one is timing the duration of the "splash".  :D

If you are able to time the descend of the output before it hits the water, I guess you must be using the 1/100th sec seiko quartz stopwatch. Don't think the El Primero can even do that. Otherwise, you must have invested all your money to build the deepest toilet plunge in the world, as deep as Grand Canyon. Are you sure you can still hear the splash??? and make sure to account for the speed of the sound travelling back from the bottom???  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Timing the duration of the splash????:o :o :o :o :o No wonder your handle reads "Godzilla"...... I salute you!!  :Startled: :Startled: :Startled:
[/quote]

Offline Watchnewby

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Re: The myth of value retaining? Where we go next?
« Reply #44 on: April 06, 2012, 02:17:36 PM »
Watches are not meant to be an investment vehicle anyway.
Just be happy that you still can trade in the used pieces and top up for something new.
If you come from a point of view that even with the annual increases and lesser discounts, by right your collection's value should have grown instead the other way round, then you're bound to be disappointed.

I wonder who started the point of view that watches are a good investment?
Patek? With the auction houses closing sales on million dollar watches?
Those are really rare and exceptional pieces... not all should be treated as such.

The most common question one get on forums is:

"I am buying my 1st serious watch, what's a good watch to invest?"
"I am buying a new _____ (enter any brand here), is it a good investment?"

I have no idea where this "investment" thing came about...
And it seems to be sending the wrong message.

Agreed that watch is not an investment. Some watches may fetch a good price in later years for trade in or pre-owned market but watches, IMO, should not be deemed as an investment.

Just like our cars (of course not discounting antique automobiles), we buy the car to get us from Point A to B. Why we choose so-and-so car? Because we like the colour, the design, our budget etc. Well, it is the same for watches.

Offline Angryrodent

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Re: The myth of value retaining? Where we go next?
« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2012, 10:36:38 AM »
I think Watches are an investment, but in ureself.. worked hard all year, school for the kids, cars, loans, food etc etc.  It's really nice to have something along all the time that is all your own. But for profit one must be kinda good at reading the future market or own a nice vintage or sold out piece.
Regarding toilet matters, so far only killed my Iphone in it(have like 5 old phones and newer phones around but cant find the loaders and dont trust the multi ones) .
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Offline IWCking

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Re: The myth of value retaining? Where we go next?
« Reply #46 on: April 09, 2012, 08:57:20 PM »
Well, i guess making profit is almost unlikely unless you have access to some very exclusive models. I do know a couple of people make their living by trading exortic watches. I guess for normal people, trying our best and do our homework by not losing too much money is probably the best that we could do.
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Offline rusminag

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Re: The myth of value retaining? Where we go next?
« Reply #47 on: April 09, 2012, 09:07:00 PM »
MYTH...... BUSTED!!!!!!!
Don't Waste Time, Go for Rolex

Offline IWCking

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Re: The myth of value retaining? Where we go next?
« Reply #48 on: April 09, 2012, 09:08:05 PM »
Thats how I feel recently.  :Blue:
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Offline Gigi

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Re: The myth of value retaining? Where we go next?
« Reply #49 on: April 09, 2012, 10:08:30 PM »
For me, collecting watches is an hobby and i don really care abt value retaining. I tend to get what i liked and stick to it. If i ever lost my love for it i will try to sell it for break even or at a slight lost.


Usually 2nd hand dealer buy cheap then sell expensive but still cheaper than AD. That how the 2nd hand shop work in Aus considering the new watch price is insanely expensive.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 10:11:23 PM by Gigi »