Some misc questions

[Meowy]

Hi all connoisseurs and pioneers, I'm very new to the luxury watch segment therefore please pardon me.

I have tried searching for answers for the following questions but I cant find them anywhere in the forum:

1) Where can I find the RRP for a certain brand online? Do you all have a source? The brand's website does not disclose any pricing. Currently I'm using Chrono24 as a benchmark but some of the price difference are too large.

2) Definition of AD(Authorised dealers) in the forum: Do you all mean shops like Cortina/hour glass ...etc

3) Does price in AD to AD and AD to Boutiques differs for a similar product? Aren't these prices supposed to be controlled? How do we prevent ourselves from being ripped off?

4) For hot models, some of the brands charges a "premium" on top of the RRP so when you ask for the price do you normally ask the salesman for the breakdown of actual RRP and the premium charge? How do you all normally ask?

5) Roughly how much more does the Perpetual calendars cost more than the annual calendar versions? 1.5 times? or more?

6) Are self-winding versions relatively more cheaper than the automatics? Do users regret this decision in the long run?

7) "XXX days power reserve" - Are these self winding watches and therefore means it can last that number of days before it needs another manual wind up?

Are luxury watches more cheaper in SG or MY or Europe. I'm particularly looking at ALS and JLC watches.

9) is it a common practice to nego with the salesman for discounts and free gifts like straps? I remembered walking into a Rolex boutique and they say "fixed price no discount"

10) Apart from checking the surface of the watch for cosmetic defects and other functionalities, what other things do we need to lookout for when we buy a new luxury watch?

11) If example, a watch like the ALS Lange 1 did not mention anything about water resistance, does it mean it has no tolerance over water? Or does it means it is a standard for nowadays to have a resistance of 50m or 100m?

[asimo]

Bro, you don't  look new to the luxury watch segment ..  JLC & Lange are
For advanced collector

Many of us here not that level yet ..

Some of questions are more like research or survey questions ... lolz


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[dualcarb]

Google davidsw. He has a website and is a very trusted seller on the Rolex forums. He will be more than happy to ship to Malaysia, but you take care of the taxes when you clear the watch from customs. His prices are fair, for new and used watches.
If you want to experience the boutique buying thing, then take a trip down to Singapore for a bigger range of choices la...

[TheWatchCollector]

Wow a lot of detailed questions!

1) I use an App called The Watch Enthusiast 10 USD per year subscription I think. Also has a website you can subscribe through, lists new prices on there. I also purchase the Wristwatch Annual 2017 by Peter Braun. Published once a year, available around October of the previous year. Some websites list prices, the Malaysian Omega site for example and the US JLC sites both list prices, but go to other countries and in most cases they don't. It is partly to do with fluctuating exchange rates and also differing tax rates by country,  so you need to take these, especially the tax rate of that country, into consideration when assessing the cost you will pay in the country of purchase.

2) Yes. Basically a distributor recognized by the Brand.

3) Yes. Boutiques rarely offer discounts, they aren't allowed, and you would look a bit silly asking for one. This is basically to protect the AD's. However boutiques often stock special edition models that aren't made available to AD's.

4) Not sure here. I'd need an example. Charging a premium for a hot model over and above the RRP would strike me as unethical. There is obviously a waiting list, if they are offering it a premium to people willing to pay it, that means people in the queue are losing out.

[TheWatchCollector]

5) Hard question to put a figure to. Perpetual calendars have been around a long time! The Annual Calendar only since 1996, invented by Patek Philippe as a cheaper option to Annual calendars. In fact the perpetual calendar was patented over 100 years before that also, I believe, by Patek Philippe, although at this time they would only have been in pocket watches as there were no wristwatches. For a long time I was in awe at perpetual until I realised a most of them cannot be set backwards. i.e. If you change time zones to an earlier time crossing the date line you have to wait for the watch to stop before you can reset them.

6) I think you've worded the question wrong, a 'self-winding' watch IS an 'automatic'

7) A power reserve literally means the maximum amount of energy the mainspring can store expressed as a duration of time, e.g. 48 hours, or 7-days, etc. Whether the watch is an Automatic winder, or a Manual Winder is irrelevant. 2 interesting things to note regarding Power Reserves, a power reserve of over 65 Hours, but preferably over 72 hours can be left over the weekend. That is you can place the watch down on a Friday evening (after work) and it will still be running on a Monday morning (when you return to work) watches that hold low 60's or less would need to be worn or wound over the weekend or reset on a Monday. 2nd, watches with very long power reserves, e.g. 7-days and sometimes longer in a lot of cases have accuracy issues towards the end of the reserve, especially watches a few years old. That is, they'll keep better time when fully wound but may lose time in the last few days.

Referring back to point 1 this usually depends on the taxes in that country. Always best to purchase an expensive watch in a tax free zone (some countries, most airports), or in a country other than your own that will allow you to claim the tax upon leaving.

[TheWatchCollector]

9) It is common to negotiate, if you feel you are up to it, although as I said, never ask for discount in a Boutique unless you have a previous relationship, you will scream newbie and not be taken seriously.

If you are looking for a discount always go to an AD. But never ask for a 'discount' and never straight away. Ask to see a few watches, try some on, strike up a conversation, through some questions out there and always refer to 'Price / Purchase assistance'. 'Are you able to offer any purchase assistance with this timepiece?' or try to refer to the price you are willing to pay rather than how much you think the discount is.

As a rule of thumb, most AD's offer 10% 'price assistance'. Depending on the brand and if you're in the know, you can expect more. Rolex, nearly always 10, Omega 15, JLC 15. And if you're good at your delivery you might be able to get them a percentage or 2 more. I've been into JLC before just to enquire, been chatting with the Manager as I love talking watches, enquired about the cash price, and he's said 'after an 18% discount it will be this'! I felt a bit deflated as I like to play the game, but just because I obviously knew my stuff he just offered it straight away. It also helps if you're wearing a nice watch to begin with! Don't be rocking your GShock when heading into Lange, they'll either politely ask you to leave, treat you with contempt, or send the trainee to practice on you. Dress the part ?

[TheWatchCollector]

Phew nearly there!

10) If buying NEW from an AD, you don't really need look out for anything as it will be covered by a warranty and you can't exactly pull it apart for a look. I might be inclined to check the age of the piece if it isn't a new model. Sometimes they can sit in the showroom for years before someone purchases it. I nearly purchased a used Tag back when I was starting out and did a double take as the warranty card was stamped 3 years after the watch was no longer produced by the Brand. Everything checked out though and it turned out it was a gift from his boss (must have got a heavy discount on that one!) and it must have jus been sat in the showroom for well over 3 years before it was purchased!

11) The old Water Resistance conundrum! In short never take the depth given as the depth you can take the watch! Why is this? If a Watch is resistant to 30m, as I believe is the case of the Lange, it means the STATIC pressure at 30m. Water currents, moving your hand in water, jumping in the pool, all increase pressure significantly. As a rule of thumb the following applies:
  30m Can resist light rain or splashing when washing your hands
  50m Can resist heavy rain, can wear in the shower, maybe even the bath, although I wouldn't.
  100m Okay now you can swim with your watch on. But I wouldn't jump / dive in.
  150m Snorkelling, and you can jump/dive in.
  200m and above, okay now you can actually SCUBA dive with your 'dive' watch!

I hope this sets you along the way, obviously a lot of my comments are down to my personal experiences and my research.

I'd love to hear anyone else's thoughts on the questions or even better rubbish my answers, as I said, I love talking watches!

[Cocas]

Wow! @TheWatchCollector  bro.

Thanks for your informative professional answers to those questions.

[asimo]

TheWatchCollector: your Nick really match your knowledge   


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[D'Andy]

Wow, TWC has really spent time answering the questions in a meticulous manner. Thanks for the sharing, mate!

[TheWatchCollector]

Thank you for your appreciative replies Gentlemen 

[mongourou]

Thank you TWC for your time and well constructed and informative answers.

I recently read an article on Hodinkee titled "Seven dive watch myths deep-sixed":

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/seven-dive-watch-myths-deep-sixed

In one of the part, it is mentioned that you have to move your arm 32miles/hour to increase the pressure but only 1atm.



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[TheWatchCollector]

Fantastic, and the Water Resistance conundrum continues!

As an interesting note I was just taking a cursory glance at how fast the human hand can move, I see that the guy was referring to the speed of a nuclear submarine, which admittedly are very large, but, I thought they don't move very fast, Yes faster than we could ever swim but our swimming speed doesn't equate to our arm speed. I read that a bowlers arm can travel at over 100mph, and the fastest a human hand can move is just over 150mph. I don't know what that would equate to under water but maybe more than the 32mph?

Also got me thinking, how fast does a diver enter the water? Apparently, depending on height anywhere up to 50mph, and although speed would play a factor here, it's the breaking of the surface tension that is the killer, hence the need to 'dive' rather than 'belly flop'. Obviously I can't see many people cliff-diving with a watch on, but I'd be interested to see what pressure the breaking of the surface places on a Watch.

New thread anyone?

[Meowy]

Thanks to TheWatchCollector for really taking the time to answer my questions! I really appreciate those step by step explanations and extra bits you've thrown in!

I was a bit lost for awhile as most of the answers couldn't be found anywhere and most of the people around do not have knowledge or insights to these. I have taken note on a few of your advises especially on point 9 - saved me from embarrassments  especially we only have 1 AD here in Johor Bahru. Point 7 and 11is really something worth noting. Really thanks a lot for your answer

One last clarification/question here though.

On your explanation on point 3, lets say we use the Rolex for an example. I don't understand why the AD are allowed to sell cheaper than the boutiques. Why would Rolex want to "protect" the AD by letting them discount the same watches which were also available in the boutiques? Isn't this allowing the AD to jeopardise the sales of the boutiques which are owned by Rolex themselves? So at the end of the day it is best, pocket-wise, to buy from an AD right?

[asimo]

Thanks to TheWatchCollector for really taking the time to answer my questions! I really appreciate those step by step explanations and extra bits you've thrown in!

I was a bit lost for awhile as most of the answers couldn't be found anywhere and most of the people around do not have knowledge or insights to these. I have taken note on a few of your advises especially on point 9 - saved me from embarrassments  especially we only have 1 AD here in Johor Bahru. Point 7 and 11is really something worth noting. Really thanks a lot for your answer

One last clarification/question here though.

On your explanation on point 3, lets say we use the Rolex for an example. I don't understand why the AD are allowed to sell cheaper than the boutiques. Why would Rolex want to "protect" the AD by letting them discount the same watches which were also available in the boutiques? Isn't this allowing the AD to jeopardise the sales of the boutiques which are owned by Rolex themselves? So at the end of the day it is best, pocket-wise, to buy from an AD right?

Using Rolex as example,

Usually AD are required to buy non popular stocks (bling bling DJ , etc) + popular stocks (sports models such as sub, GMT2, etc)..
They have no choice but to give discount to clear some of the non popular stocks .. in another scenario , possibly the client is a regular of the AD (which also carry other brands example JLC, IWC, Omega, etc), so AD have to give some good discounts to keep their regular or VIP clients happy.

FYI, some of the Rolex boutiques in Malaysia  also owned n run by the big watch AD companies and not directly by Rolex.

I may be wrong .



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[TheWatchCollector]

Thanks to TheWatchCollector for really taking the time to answer my questions! I really appreciate those step by step explanations and extra bits you've thrown in!

I was a bit lost for awhile as most of the answers couldn't be found anywhere and most of the people around do not have knowledge or insights to these. I have taken note on a few of your advises especially on point 9 - saved me from embarrassments  especially we only have 1 AD here in Johor Bahru. Point 7 and 11is really something worth noting. Really thanks a lot for your answer

One last clarification/question here though.

On your explanation on point 3, lets say we use the Rolex for an example. I don't understand why the AD are allowed to sell cheaper than the boutiques. Why would Rolex want to "protect" the AD by letting them discount the same watches which were also available in the boutiques? Isn't this allowing the AD to jeopardise the sales of the boutiques which are owned by Rolex themselves? So at the end of the day it is best, pocket-wise, to buy from an AD right?

You're more than welcome Meowy, I know how many questions I had when starting out ?

To clarify point 3, and my answer is based upon the Boutiques being owned by the brand so this answer might be negated if asimo is correct in his assumption that some boutiques are owed by the larger AD's.

The reason Brand-owned boutiques are not allowed to offer discounts is because discounts are not offered as a matter of course. If you go in and slap the cash down without question, sure they'll take it. A newbie might be given 5%, someone who just asks for 10% will get 10, a good negotiator might get 15, and if you have a good relationship maybe even more. Why does all this matter?

Joe Bloggs heads into a Brand-owned Rolex Boutique and manages to bag himself a 12% discount; this presents a few problems for the brand. Joe Bloggs later pops into an independently owned AD to buy his wife a Watch (or worse, puts the word out and his friend pops in). Maybe it's family-owned, not a large company with shareholders and lots of branches, the owner might be happy to offer between 5-10% discount to to get the sale and/or build a relationship, but Joe Bloggs pipes up, "But I can get this for 12% off at the Rolex Boutique!" There's the problem.

It sets a precedent, The AD's start moaning that their margins are being squashed and also it communicates that Rolex themselves don't even stand by their RRP's. And yes you are right it might reduce the sales volume of standard pieces in the Boutiques but people not in the know will still buy there, and in addition this is why special edition watches are only available in Boutiques (without discount!) it generates revenues that aren't in competition with the AD's. Everyone's a winner!

[Meowy]

TheWatchCollector - Wow thats hell of a lesson. I believe it takes great experience to nego with the boutiques. Come to think of it, maybe the brand own boutiques may stand firmly to their RRP however the privately owned boutiques that asimo mentioned may be the ones that gives the discounts. Possible?

On a side note there are more questions popping out so i hope you can shed some light:

Similarly, using Rolex as an example:

a) If we buy rolex from an AD, are the warranty cards all already filled up with names? Sort of like pre-owned? I heard some of my friends buying in such situations from their so called AD. I am suspecting that they might have walked into a "pre-owned" shop rather than an official AD.

b) For hot watches like the 116710 BLNR - how would the brand-owned boutiques treat such a watch in terms of pricing? They shouldn't be charging premiums like the AD does right? Or do they really increase the RRP due to the demand over supply situation?

c) Does paying cash over CC gives you better discount? Carry cash like this seems like a crazy idea.

d) Is it a common practice in luxury watch retail world to ask for freebies like additional straps or some other accessories like the watch winder. I believe the AD might be able to pull this off if they didn't give out much discounts. But what about the boutiques? Do they practice it as well?

e) 15% discount seems like a lot and i believe it even eats into the salesman's commission. Would asking for the manager or some higher position personnel increase our chance of getting a better price? 

f) When buying a new watch, do they typically give you the displayed one must we actually ask for a "new one"?

Thanks again for taking the time to read my post and answering my questions!

[Timeless]

Impressive sharing with valuable knowledges.

[dennis.T]

TWC has given a deep and clear reply. Thumbs up


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[asimo]

good read..

http://www.ablogtowatch.com/doomsday-coming-for-wrist-watch-retailers/

[Jaymie360]

Thank you for the valuable knowledge that i gained from this explanation.

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