In-house: Myths and Truths

[terrenceterrence]

I did not wrote this. Found this from a Rolex forum, but i find this really enlightening. Credit to the person who posted this.


Watch Manufacturer

1.Mainly own designs and manufactures all major components of every watch in-house.

Rolex
(Shock kif system, escapements hairsprings out sourced and crystals?) Update now use in some models
own in-house hairsprings and paraflex shock system and now own the crystal manufacture side but still out source mainsprings.

Glashütte Original/Union Glashütte (not sure about the crystals)

Harry Winston Fine Timepieces (with collaborators help)

Seiko. Makes everything in-house.

Urwerk. (even crystals designed all in-house)

2.Design and manufactures every movement in-house, but uses suppliers for cases, dials,crystals, etc.

A. Lange & Sohne. (big date mechanism designed by JLC)

Blancpain.

Breguet.

Citizen.

Philippe Dufour.

Girard-Perregaux.

Jaeger-LeCoultre.

F.P. Journe.

Richard Mille.

Patek Philippe. But even Patek Philippe never made their own movements till the middle 30s.And still use a modded
Lemania's Cal. 2310 as a base for some of there two register m/wind chronographs


Piaget.

Zenith.

3. Designs and manufactures most movements in-house, but also uses supplied movements mostly ETA Based and Lemania.

Audemars Piguet.

Parmigiani.

Roger Dubuis.

Vacheron Constantin. uses Lemania's Cal. 2310 as a base ebauche to some of their M/wind cronos

4.Designs and manufactures some movements in-house, but mostly uses supplied ebauches then rework movements.

Chopard.

Ulysse Nardin.

Panerai.

5.Manufactures who use supplied ébauche or base movement, but do extensive and substantial in-house modification to movement, that a unique finished movement, only to that said manufacture results.

Svend Andersen.

D. Dornblüth & Sohne.

IWC.

Paul Gerber.

Nomos.

Daniel Roth.

6. Designs and manufactures at least most movements in- house group, but uses other suppliers for cases, dials, etc.

Jacquet Droz.

Longines.

Omega.

Tissot.

Breitling.


7. Begins with supplied movements, but does additional finishing in-house or in-house-group.

Stowa/Jorg Schauer

8.Designs a few movements, receives completed movements, and assembles at least some watches in-house, but most out sourced.

Chronoswiss.
Tag Heuer.

9.Outsources all aspects of manufacturing.

All fashion brands.

10.Poljot. now produce all in-house movements,for chrono range.

The Chronograph P3133 is based on the Swiss Valjoux 7734 movement,they bought the old tooling and rights.The Val 7734 was
in production from 1969-78 less than 2 million were made.Then the
Russian Poljot firm modified the Val 7734 into the P3133


But most movements that Poljot uses are based on popular Swiss movements,plus today in some of there watches,they use full ETA movements like the 2824.

The P3133 is based on the Valjoux 7734 movement.

The P2612 is based on the AS 1475 (alarm) movement
17-18 Jewel M/W




Below are the technical data of the Valjoux 7734, and a comparison with the Poljot 3133 after the modification.


Valjoux 7734-------------- Poljot 3133
Winding. Handwind.----------- Handwind.

Jewels. 17. ============ 23.

A/h. 18000. ---------- 21600.

P/R 36 hours-------------- 42 hours.
__________________

[besview]

Thanks for posting mate,very informative

[peanut]

The information is consistent with my understanding.  However, after owning various in-house movement watches and standard ETA/Valjoux based watches, personally I am not particular whether a watch contains in-house or ETA or others.  As an example my Valjoux 7750 based A. Silberstein is extremely accurate and so far performs better than AP, Glashutte, Blancpain, etc.  Actually many of the in-house movements suck big time as well.

[swleong]

so as a cheapo watch purist like me, should buy Seiko only 

[Gigi]

I can now proudly walk into the major luxury watch shop and tell em my low end seiko is more in house than watever brand selling at gadzillion ringgit. 

Sure the sale man inside there will like 

[chrisyen]

This is what I knew about, it's not secret
but these brand jus know how to guide u to focus into what they good at

if these top brand chose that supplier for yrs and still using it now mean those supplier supplied them gd stuff
so whether is in house or out source or oem... I dun care

especially movement, the base movement using eta is
common and safest way for watch company!
Simply because it is proven it's reliability for yrs!

It is not cost effective to design a new movement...
No brand can test it's movement for ten yrs then only they manufacture it
so we all know most manufacture movements released in the past few yrs are having problems!

 

[takashi78]

So where is the part about "myths"?

[ck77]

Thanks Terrence, good post  

In-house doesn't mean better. Not to mention one need to a premium (most of it) to own a piece and high maintence cost.
ETA/Lemania have proven their reliability through this years.

[Gigi]

Thanks Terrence, good post  

In-house doesn't mean better. Not to mention one need to a premium (most of it) to own a piece and high maintence cost.
ETA/Lemania have proven their reliability through this years.

Hmm wat about those in house movement tat around for sometime like Lolex or zenith el-primero series?

[terrenceterrence]

So where is the part about "myths"?

easy..when a manufacturer come out with their new movement ..ask the Sales guy just "how much" of it is in house? case in Tag Huer

[peanut]

So where is the part about "myths"?

The myths is "Seiko is an alcheapo manufacture"   Truth is Seiko is a world class full in-house manufacture!  

[ck77]

Thanks Terrence, good post  

In-house doesn't mean better. Not to mention one need to a premium (most of it) to own a piece and high maintence cost.
ETA/Lemania have proven their reliability through this years.

Hmm wat about those in house movement tat around for sometime like Lolex or zenith el-primero series?

Those are proven too but service cost is higher than ETA if you bring back to manufacturer.

[terrenceterrence]

it would be interesting now..to see how things would turn out to be once swatch stops supplying ebauches to everyone.

[takashi78]

I think out of the brands i know i would only consider Seiko a true and true manufacturer.
They even produce their own grade of oil used in the movt!

[ck77]

it would be interesting now..to see how things would turn out to be once swatch stops supplying ebauches to everyone.

Sellita 

[Gigi]

I think out of the brands i know i would only consider Seiko a true and true manufacturer.
They even produce their own grade of oil used in the movt!

What about other jap watch company like Citizen or  Orient (ya i know they are own by Seiko) are they consider TRUE in house manufacture?

[terrenceterrence]

I think out of the brands i know i would only consider Seiko a true and true manufacturer.
They even produce their own grade of oil used in the movt!

i think it boils down to economies of scale. seiko and rolex produces millions of watches a year between themselves. they are their own largest customers... might as well control their own supply chain

the rest of the manufacturers are now held ransom by swatch....

[genec]

But would all these change once Swatch Group stops supplying ETA movements to other brands not owned by Swatch?

[terrenceterrence]

swatch only would stop supplying ebauches

they would still supply movements to everyone...

[sshark]

Tat y Tag H. quickly bought a working design from Seiko.

I think out of the brands i know i would only consider Seiko a true and true manufacturer.
They even produce their own grade of oil used in the movt!

i think it boils down to economies of scale. seiko and rolex produces millions of watches a year between themselves. they are their own largest customers... might as well control their own supply chain

the rest of the manufacturers are now held ransom by swatch....

[TheHobbit]

swatch only would stop supplying ebauches

they would still supply movements to everyone...

We will have to wait and see what the new management at Swatch decides. Before Mr. Hayek passed on, he did indicate that ETA will stop supplying ebauches and movements to everyone save those who do manufacture some of their own movements.

[watchtime]

When Damasko put an  inhouse movement into their DA46 model and rename it DK10 they increase the
list price from euro 1099 to euro 2990. Is a watch movement worth that much ? Got this info. from
their official website.

[duniajam]

If I not mistaken the late Mr Hayek make the announcement in 2005 because of no new innovation from most Swiss brand (supplied by ETA). Of course they will do it step by step....if not, some brand might be vanish/close or whatever...  . They still can use ETA but thats full movement made by ETA with ETA logo on the rotor. No more ebauches like before. Some say, buying a full complete movement from ETA will also increase the price than the ebauches & assemble by them self.... I think this might be true also. Maybe when ETA start to stop supplying ebauches 100%, then maybe we can see a dramatic changes if the brand still not taking any action by this matter. Maybe some will take other route or alternative. Who knows...  

A few brand already take action after late Mr Hayek announced it.   I take Panerai for example. Since 2006 Panerai started making their in-house movement. Of course R&D need a huge amount of money & need to take many years to perfect their movement. So the price for the new PAM also increase. Almost double the price than the ETA they are using before (these goes to other brand else well). Some got problem with the new movement. Need to take more years to produce a perfect movement. But their movement innovation (a new movement every year) is superb!  

As for Japanese, really respect them. They can produce a good, reliability in-house movement & sell it with a very affordable price. Almost most horology innovation/milestone..... quartz (so many development), digital, mechanical & many other thing, Seiko are there.  So why shame wearing a Seiko? Not to offend anybody ok.... just my 2 cent   Do correct me if I'm wrong...  

Maybe a few more years we can see a new development from many Swiss brand & I hope can sell it with a more affordable price.  

 

[genec]

When Damasko put an  inhouse movement into their DA46 model and rename it DK10 they increase the
list price from euro 1099 to euro 2990. Is a watch movement worth that much ? Got this info. from
their official website.

Yes. You can say the movement is the heart and soul of the watch.

[duniajam]

For me that too much for the watch. With that kind of price can get other brand which offered better.