Let's talk Tourbillons

[TheHobbit]

Apologies upfront as this is not a thread on watches with tourbillons, although we do not mind if you do post them for us to view and appreciate, but more of a discussion on tourbillons.

To make it simple, I have copied the definition of tourbillon from wikipedia:

In horology, a tourbillon (French: "whirlwind") is an addition to the mechanics of a watch escapement. Developed around 1795 by the French-Swiss watchmaker Abraham-Louis Breguet from an earlier idea by the English chronometer maker John Arnold, a tourbillon aims to counter the effects of gravity by mounting the escapement and balance wheel in a rotating cage, to negate the effect of gravity when the timepiece (thus the escapement) is stuck in a certain position.

So to me, a tourbillon is a device used to regulate a watch and should be define such. However, we see that the tourbillon is now considered a complication. This is not to be confused with it, the tourbillon, being a complicated mechanism or complicated to make. To me, a complication by definition, is an additional function in a watch other than simple timekeeping. Simple timekeeping here is the hours, minutes and seconds. As such, the addition of a date on the watch is a complication as is a chronograph or even a minute repeater. But a tourbillon is not. It is a device or mechanism used to regulate the accuracy of time keeping.

Thoughts?

Additionally, what are your view on the use of the tourbillon on modern wristwatches? It does show the movement manufacturer capabilities to manufacture a complicated regulator, but does it improve on the accuracy of the wrist watch?

[sshark]

I look at tour-billion as an enormous effort to get back negligible accuracy. It adds aesthetic and complex mechanism to a  already fine working watch. As a result, the manufacturers have a good excuse to charge few hundreds time more from their ordinary models. It is more of an art piece rather than a necessity to a more precise watch.

[GMTmaster]

Thanks for bringing this up. I always wonder how much does a tourbilion improve accuracy.   A good mechanical watch is already 99.99% accurate.

P/S. I find a tourbillion not necessarily makes a watch more attractive aesthetically. ( maybe just me )

[el118]

It just give the watch companies an extra reason to charge premium on their watch, and vice versa an extra reason for the rich to convince themselves they got an impressive watch to show off

[mykita]

I think the function of the tourbillon has evolved beyond accuracy. It is more for showcasing a manufacturer's creativity/engineering/manfucturing capabilities to animate a watch. It should feel like seeing one of those clockwork toys when you see a tourbillion like either the gyro or freak.

I also remember the rejection rate to manufacture one is almost 99% so I suspect the manufacturer factors into the price the cost of not only making but also servicing the watch for its lifetime. Just my $0.02.

[chrisyen]

Tourbillon made watch difficult to regulate to my understanding
Parts r tiny n light weight, constantly moving... Adjusting hair spring n balance wheel is tough
If it is not gyro, it's bcom heavy due to the cage, hence affecting accuracy in a dial up or flown position

With modern tech, accuracy has been improved a lot.... Tourbillon no longer the accuracy creation nowadays
V nvr buy a patek Bcoz of accuracy, merely looking after it for next gen
What v buy is mere an art piece, how marvelous is human being, can create such an small mechanism

But no doubt, looking a constant moving part in a small mechanical watch is a happy thing.
Most brand do not design n build tourbillon, but buying it from tourbillon builder

Designing a new chronograph is much more difficult than a tourbillon

[GMTmaster]

Talking about tourbillion, I am more delighted about this "Constant Escapement", developed by Girard Perregaux...

[TheHobbit]

Talking about tourbillion, I am more delighted about this "Constant Escapement", developed by Girard Perregaux...

While I like and appreciate such development, I sometimes question the robustness of these new developments and even longevity of such mechanism, ease of service and of course the most important (to me) is the price point of entry......

[hanz079]

Talking about tourbillion, I am more delighted about this "Constant Escapement", developed by Girard Perregaux...

While I like and appreciate such development, I sometimes question the robustness of these new developments and even longevity of such mechanism, ease of service and of course the most important (to me) is the price point of entry......

There are always cheap china made tourbillions... 

[terrenceterrence]

Don't think it can be called "cheap" either 

Talking about tourbillion, I am more delighted about this "Constant Escapement", developed by Girard Perregaux...

While I like and appreciate such development, I sometimes question the robustness of these new developments and even longevity of such mechanism, ease of service and of course the most important (to me) is the price point of entry......

There are always cheap china made tourbillions... 

[sidestreaker]

No doubt turbillon are a wonderous mechanical invention.  I mean, who wouldn't like it on their wrist. The only problem is that for the rest of us mortals, it's a distant dream. For me and at that price point, tuorbillon watches from Villaret, Minerva are most unique and elegant, just like their monopushers.

Nevertheless, if I have the capacity, I'd probably be more interested on the more modest traditional fusée and chain transmission ( there's nothing humble about the price, though). It's much rarer and can only be achieved by a handful of skilled manufacturer.

[Godzillaz]

From my experience in this hobby I find things don't always seem the way they are. There are tourbillon and then there are tourbillon. Just a brief run in my head I can count there are

- Show off tourbillon
- Discreet tourbillon
- Low price tourbillon
- High price tourbillon
- Sophisticated tourbillon
- OEM tourbillon
- Highly decorated tourbillon
- Poorly made tourbillon
- Simple tourbillon
- Multi-axis tourbillon
- Single axis tourbillon
- Proper regulated tourbillon
- non-regulated tourbillon
- Modern tourbillon
- traditional tourbillon

I probably missed out some     

I actually find it hard to generalize tourbillon watches in the market today.

I was once think they are overprice complication. That thought slowly change when I see some of them show up in my friend's collection.

I started asking myself "Did I missed something?" "How come season collector like them would fall for the tourbillon gimmick?!" The questions lead me to discover the wonderful world of these finely crafted horological device. After a few close encounter with some of my friend's watch. I now know why.

My findings are

1. There aren't a lot of parts in a tourbillon. (some GP 3 gold bridge only have about 40 parts)
2. It's inexpensive to make a tourbillon mechanism (generally they don't cost more than a few thousand CHF)
3. They don't really improve accuracy of the watch (at least not significantly)
4. They take your breath away (the proper finish one)
5. They show a manufacturer true skill and capability.
6. Making them fairly easy (my surprise!) regulate them is hard.
7. A tourbillon need to be examine from a loupe to be fully appreciate.
8. You have to see quite a few to distinguish between the jewel and the lemon.

These are some of the model that I personally fancy.

1. Breguest La Tradition Tourbillon
2. GP 3 Gold Bridge (manual wind)
3. JLC Gyro 1
4. LF Galet Tourbillon
5. Patek 10 day Tourbillon

The unfortunate thing is a manufacturer know they can get away with a silly price when they have a proper product. Or in Patek case, a crazy price.

Finally I think measuring the merit of a mechanical through accuracy present some limitation in the journey of collecting. Since it is a given fact that mechanical watch can't match the accuracy of quartz or satelite watch we have nowadays. I will continue to face the dilemma of whether I should go for the watch that fascinate and attract me or the so so one because it's more accurate.

I have given up accuracy as a criteria because I believe almost every watch nowadays can be regulate to COSC standard regardless of its movement. It's up to the manufacturer to be ethical and do so for they watch. If is not then demand a service and have them do so.   


BTW I do agree with Ivan that tourbillon shouldn't be categorize as a complication. Just by the fact that it do not show additional time telling features ie date, timezone, alarm as such.

Regard
Tyler

[hanz079]

Tyler... No love for the Zenith Cristophe Colombe Hurricane? 

[Godzillaz]

Technically the movement is interesting but the overall aesthetics is not to my personal taste. Kinda like the Gyro II. Fascinating movement and interesting idea to put it in a rectangular case. However it's also a watch I would find difficulties to wear.

That's the thing about these watch. The movement might be superb but wearability is not. Achieving the balance is hard. When they do gets it. They can charge an arm (maybe 2) or leg for it.

Come to think of it. I even find the 10 days tourby from Patek abit too large albeit it's a gorgeous watch. Though the price is an insult.


Regard
Tyler

Tyler... No love for the Zenith Cristophe Colombe Hurricane? 

[pexus]

From my experience in this hobby I find things don't always seem the way they are. There are tourbillon and then there are tourbillon. Just a brief run in my head I can count there are

- Show off tourbillon

Good read.  I like this one the best ....straight to the point...
 

[GTH]

Before the tourbillion was invented, various lever escapements were used in pocket watches. These pocket watches, clipped to a coat by a chain and kept in a pocket, were subjected to the effects of gravity when the owner walked, rode a horse or a carriage.
The pocket watches would change its positions many times during use, the parts of the watch and hair spring would bounce up and down affecting its timing. The hair-spring in general would be greatly affected by the daily motions of the watch owner, hence its timing would be off frequently.
Breguet conceptualized the tourbillon in 1795 and the patent was issued in 1801.
The tourbillon is made up of a conventional assortment and a balance. These elements are mounted in a rotating carriage, pivoted at either end, running between the main plate and "that" pretty looking bridge.
The carriage functions as the fourth wheel and pinion. The fourth pinion is part of the axis of the carriage and is driven be the third wheel. Inside the carriage the escapement functions as normal, power in transmitted from the fourth pinion to the carriage which makes the escape pinion turn on a fixed fourth wheel that forms part of the main plate, and rotates in the manner of a satellite.
Imagine a big circle (fourth wheel), with one small circle in the center (fourth pinion) and one more small one (escape pinion) on the perimeter of the big circle. The 2 small circles are directly connected to each other in a straight line.
The big circle stays still, the center small circle rotates on its axis, and it guides the small perimeter circle around the big circle. Can understand ar?
That's how you see the escape wheel rotating around when you look at tourbillon watches.




It doesn't actually negate the effects of gravity in vertical positions, it takes the average of errors in vertical positions and recovers to show a pretty decent timing.

for example (this will be pretty close to regular watch timing procedures), when the carriage (if its pinion is used as a seconds indicator with a second hand) points towards:
12H : +5 secs
3H :  +2 secs
6H : + 1 secs
9H : +2 secs

Average out the time and you get +2.5 seconds. I've seen a tourbillon in a watch timing tester before and the display showed an unstable rate as the tourbillon cage rotates. The watch rate display looked like a oscillating wave, but it will show a constate averaged rate.
Other normal watches i see have a constant rate depending on which position it is set to be tested.  based on fixed position tests, some normal watches or normal escapement chronometers will have a better average rate than a Tourbillon.

I'd say a tourbillon watch nowadays are pretty much useless, much as in the old times it was sorta used as a status symbol. You see that fella got tourbillon pocket watch means sibeh rich.

To make it is an art form and requires a lot of patience to file and polish the carriage, you pay for art on your wrist nowadays.