ETA 6497 talk... maybe some justive for the pam

[chrisyen]

how often you hear

using the same eta 6497.... but they charge you rm 10k more....



this is the swiss made eta 6497-1 base movement - an ugly non finish movement.



how about this, the so called finish movement u often seen in the RM few k watches.
nickel plated, blued screw, cotes de geneva


and compare to this


are they the same eta 6497?

comparing the movement 2 & 3 (Pam) i can simply point out the obvious differences (not the detail level/degree of finishing), worth the rm10k different.... u judge

1. most vious different - the ugly 6497 bridges has been thrown and replaced with the new bridges

2. plating - nickel vs pam rhodium - rhodium is the ultimate plating for watch movement. the price is also most expensive!

3. base plate finishing - none vs perlage

4. balance regulating - std vs polished swan neck - swan neck not just aesthetic, its easier to to do micro adjustment

5. bridges beveling - none vs yes

6. beat per hour - 18,000 vs 21,600 - arguably the faster the better accuracy

7. power reserve - 40 vs 56 hours

8. accuracy - non chronometer vs COSC

above are the obvious differences... the non obvious could be material of hair spring, balance wheel, polishing on each wheel, blue screw method, fine level of cotes de geneve, how many position is was regulated, etc

with many watch putting the so call swiss eta 6497 into their watches, they may claim the same... most likely they are not!

rm10k++ different justifiable no? u can go on to compare the other component of a watch...

[TheHobbit]

Panerai buys the Top Grade 6497 and sends them off to Soprod to modify the movement to look like the original Cortebert movement used in vintage Panerai.



Picture from The Swiss Monster blog

[Gigi]

Willing buyer willing seller. Most ppl who bought pam cos they like the design. Only small majority of ppl only cared about the movement.

[Kennypane]

Don't forget to add, on the Pam they use Nivarox hairspring like some of our Speedies.

[Kennypane]

The new modified 6497 except for balance screws may be more reliable, durable, and accurate than the Cortebert movement in vintage Pams too.  Reason due to new technology.

[chrisyen]

Don't forget to add, on the Pam they use Nivarox hairspring like some of our Speedies.

Actually nivarox not highest grade, just better grade, anachon... Is the best if I remember n spell correctly

[ck77]

A lot of people also think that Grank Seiko = Seiko

[Godzillaz]

I'm afraid it is the same for other brand. Take out the aesthetical reason most watch would lose their appeal. My experience taught me I can tolerated a sub standard movement in a good looking watch but the same can't be said for the opposite.

My 2 cents
T

Willing buyer willing seller. Most ppl who bought pam cos they like the design. Only small majority of ppl only cared about the movement.

[TJWN]

The hairspring in the PAM is Anachron instead of Nivarox 1

And the Balance wheel is Glucydur instead of Nickel Balance: Higher resistance against changes in temperature, higher consistency in-terms of time keeping

[davidtth]

i doubt about the accuracy... even tho its COSC, my pam 111 running at at least more than 10 sec per day even after 1 month of wearing... 

since then, i never justify pam as good watch maker, more like brand and design instead of watch maker, and their in-house movement is total disappointment, as accurate as seiko 5

[sidestreaker]

i doubt about the accuracy... even tho its COSC, my pam 111 running at at least more than 10 sec per day even after 1 month of wearing... 

since then, i never justify pam as good watch maker, more like brand and design instead of watch maker, and their in-house movement is total disappointment, as accurate as seiko 5

Well, has it been sent for regulation? If yes, any improvement?

[davidtth]

Well, has it been sent for regulation? If yes, any improvement?

send in for first time, was told the watch had magnetized, they help to demagnetize it, bring back try for another few weeks, still the same

bring over to service center they say need to do further checking which will takes months, and so i given up, ask among fren who own similar watch having similar accuracy issue, most of them not bothering.

since then i've giving up in pam, but no doubt the watch is very nice looking 

[TheHobbit]

Well, has it been sent for regulation? If yes, any improvement?

send in for first time, was told the watch had magnetized, they help to demagnetize it, bring back try for another few weeks, still the same

bring over to service center they say need to do further checking which will takes months, and so i given up, ask among fren who own similar watch having similar accuracy issue, most of them not bothering.

since then i've giving up in pam, but no doubt the watch is very nice looking 

If you got it new, get it in and get them to fix the problem. If pre-loved but still under warranty, still and it in. Why let them get away with it.

[STT1987]

Well, has it been sent for regulation? If yes, any improvement?

send in for first time, was told the watch had magnetized, they help to demagnetize it, bring back try for another few weeks, still the same

bring over to service center they say need to do further checking which will takes months, and so i given up, ask among fren who own similar watch having similar accuracy issue, most of them not bothering.

since then i've giving up in pam, but no doubt the watch is very nice looking 

I've had a similar problem with my PAM000.

Turns out it was magnetized, I was keeping it near to my computer and miscellaneous hard drives, power supplies etc. occasionally I even put my hand phone (a huge magnetic source) next to it when I took the watch off for the evening. You'd be surprised to know the myriad of magnetic sources that we keep around the house that might affect mechanical watches!
 

After I found out my PAM was magnetized and had it fixed (from 1 min a day to less than 5 sec approx), I am happy as a clam with it.
 

You might want to check the surroundings of where you keep your watch after you take it off or even if your workplace has magnetic field sources nearby.

Either that or invest in a Rolex Milgauss, the latest Omega anti-magnetic Aqua Terra or the PAM 389.

[davidtth]

i wonder, how do you measure the accuracy on the PAM000 since the watch have no second hand ... ? 

i kept my watch far away from any magnetic stuff, all my baby are well taken care of 

Hobbit, yes still under warranty, just dun like the wait hence moved on...

[TheHobbit]

i wonder, how do you measure the accuracy on the PAM000 since the watch have no second hand ... ? 

i kept my watch far away from any magnetic stuff, all my baby are well taken care of 

Hobbit, yes still under warranty, just dun like the wait hence moved on...

From my understanding (yet to be confirmed), the movements (ETA/ Unitas 6497) that Panerai receives are all with COSC. Movements that are to used on the base Panerai like the PAM0000 and PAM00210 where there are no seconds hand are subsequently modified and the COSC cert is not issued with the watch. So at time of assemble, the movement was COSC but no longer since the movement has been modified. As for measurement of accuracy, you can still use a timing machine and regulate accordingly.

[Enkidu]

i wonder, how do you measure the accuracy on the PAM000 since the watch have no second hand ... ? 

And no minute markers...

[Enkidu]

From my understanding (yet to be confirmed), the movements (ETA/ Unitas 6497) that Panerai receives are all with COSC.

I thought the submission to COSC is in every case made by the watch company (Rolex, Omega, Breitling, OP.....)? If Panerai receives movements already with COSC, who submitted them in the first place? Doesn't it sound odd to get movements certified (with all the costs, time and labour expended) and just to have them modified with the result that the earlier COSC is made probably invalid.

[STT1987]

i wonder, how do you measure the accuracy on the PAM000 since the watch have no second hand ... ? 

i kept my watch far away from any magnetic stuff, all my baby are well taken care of 

Hobbit, yes still under warranty, just dun like the wait hence moved on...

I had the watch examined (not serviced) at JWW in SGP. If they are to be believed - it's well within COSC tolerance; within 5 secs according to their machine. My own observation (non-scientific and anecdotal as it is) are accumulated over a period of a few days. Also helps if you have a Breitling super-quartz on hand as a reference. I also have several omega COSC watches on winders, the PAM 000 keeps up with them also. Start the timing on the 5 min marker, and go from there. Sorry to disappoint Panerai bashers, but I don't have any problems with my Panerai and I'm posting as such here.
 

You'd be surprised at the number of magnetic sources around.
 


At home a year or so ago, probably going to be put next to my computer to be magnetized...
  

[TheHobbit]

From my understanding (yet to be confirmed), the movements (ETA/ Unitas 6497) that Panerai receives are all with COSC.

I thought the submission to COSC is in every case made by the watch company (Rolex, Omega, Breitling, OP.....)? If Panerai receives movements already with COSC, who submitted them in the first place? Doesn't it sound odd to get movements certified (with all the costs, time and labour expended) and just to have them modified with the result that the earlier COSC is made probably invalid.

That is my understanding. But there are plenty of loose end when it comes to the movement. We know that Panerai buys the top grade or Chronometre grade 6497 movement. But what does it mean? Does the movement come with COSC or meet COSC requirements. I am guessing that it meets the requirements. We know that Panerai sends the movement to Soprod for modification, I am guessing this includes the removal of the sub-seconds pinion. So does Soprod sends the movement to COSC on behalf of Panerai or does Panerai sends it first then have the movement modified? Your guess is as good as mine. Does Soprod just do the modifications or do they case the watch as well? Again, your guess is as good as mine. All these are the dirty little secrets all watch brands keep away from the buyers.

All I know based on my limited knowledge is that all the 6497 are COSC certified, regardless if it comes with or without the seconds hand.

[chrisyen]

Every can send movement to get cosc
They check movement at different position

When movement put back in watches... Things can change

Most eta are accurate n reliable at today standard

More so with those chronometer grade come with cosc grade with glucydur balance n anachron hair spring
They r way better than most tourbillon... Even ap n pp... Yeah, belief me

Yeah I do belief Rolex n GS achieve gd accuracy n reliability
As well as current running omega 8500

So r v comparing this pam 6497 with which movement again?

When Age catch up, loosing eyesight to focus on minute marker
The big dial with 3,6,9,12 of pam still best time telling watch for me
Whether in the dark or bright day light

[Enkidu]

When Age catch up, loosing eyesight to focus on minute marker
The big dial with 3,6,9,12 of pam still best time telling watch for me
Whether in the dark or bright day light

That is true. But OP is not making watches exclusively for old folks like us. 

But yes you are right, modern ETA movements are accurate and well tested. Few can dispute that. In all honesty, the "preference" for in-house is somewhat due (as Woon once told me) to snobbery. As between a well tested ETA/UNITAS/Lemania and an untested and expensive new in-house movement, logically the preference should be for the former, but this is for another thread.....(or maybe we have discussed this sometime ago).

[Enkidu]

Sorry to disappoint Panerai bashers, but I don't have any problems with my Panerai and I'm posting as such here.
 

....but in your earlier post in this same thread just one day ago you admitted and I quote:

"I've had a similar problem with my PAM000".

So, which is which???

[TheHobbit]

They r way better than most tourbillon... Even ap n pp... Yeah, belief me

When Age catch up, loosing eyesight to focus on minute marker
The big dial with 3,6,9,12 of pam still best time telling watch for me
Whether in the dark or bright day light

Don't get me started on tourbillons.....

Chris, you that old meh? If like me, oklah... that is why my collection mostly no minute markers...

[Enkidu]

From my understanding (yet to be confirmed), the movements (ETA/ Unitas 6497) that Panerai receives are all with COSC.

I thought the submission to COSC is in every case made by the watch company (Rolex, Omega, Breitling, OP.....)? If Panerai receives movements already with COSC, who submitted them in the first place? Doesn't it sound odd to get movements certified (with all the costs, time and labour expended) and just to have them modified with the result that the earlier COSC is made probably invalid.

That is my understanding. But there are plenty of loose end when it comes to the movement. We know that Panerai buys the top grade or Chronometre grade 6497 movement. But what does it mean? Does the movement come with COSC or meet COSC requirements. I am guessing that it meets the requirements. We know that Panerai sends the movement to Soprod for modification, I am guessing this includes the removal of the sub-seconds pinion. So does Soprod sends the movement to COSC on behalf of Panerai or does Panerai sends it first then have the movement modified? Your guess is as good as mine. Does Soprod just do the modifications or do they case the watch as well? Again, your guess is as good as mine. All these are the dirty little secrets all watch brands keep away from the buyers.

All I know based on my limited knowledge is that all the 6497 are COSC certified, regardless if it comes with or without the seconds hand.

You conveniently answered my 3 questions with 3 questions but I guess I can get the drift of what you are trying to tell.

AS regards Chris' original post above whether the RM 10K is justifiable, I believe it can only be answered on a case-by-case basis and is dependant on the purpose and reason for which you buy that particular watch. I am still asking myself whether it will be worth the extra $$$ getting the AP 15202ST instead of the 15400. Some people feel yes, some says it's crazy. How do we decide??