Malaysia Watch Forum
Main Forums => General Discussion - Modern Watches => Topic started by: terrenceterrence on February 25, 2011, 10:56:08 PM
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Been thinking maybe it's time i get myself my first affordable chrono for a try. Which one would you guys choose?
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and why..........
thanks in advance
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You should consider adding the Zenith El Primero to your list. Just a suggestion.
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thanks..but I don't really fancy the design of the watch.
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Of course omega moonwatch :D
Only issue is manual winding and no date... It's my weekend watch ;D
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Sppedy :thumbsup:
Simply classic.
If it's good enough to use for moon missions, is good enough for me :Dancing_banana:
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Tutima, Lemania 5100.
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speedmaster +1, from this for selection
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Legendary Lange Datograph.
gd 1. But a dayograph can buy 20 pieces of those listed up there!
I will suggest a seiko brightz Phoenix 8r28 in house movement with column wheel n vertical clutches!!!
Price just slightly lower than those listed!!!
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Based on those listed... I guess Omega would be the choice.
Based on Brand Recognition, Tradition, Quality and future value.
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The speedy no hesitation.. if there was an el primero inthere i might think a lill but still end up with the speedy.. there is no chrono whith such history n distinct design
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I would take tutima commando for its simplicity. minute and second chrono hands in 1 dial. also, the advantage of not having a second hand is ez to set time especially for ppl like me who likes to set the time "accurate" to the second :)
btw, The movement installed in the current speedy is not the one used for moon missions.
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Speedy pro.... a classic from Omega!!!
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Of course the Tutima!
Why?
Bcos..
1. the red hands/arrow hand
2. reminds me very the much of the Sinn142 (is it cheaper than the Sinn142 ?)
3. the Lemania5100
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In your choice for me speedy is the winner.
Cant beat the classic styling. Super easy to read the time at a glance.
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Of course the Tutima!
Why?
Bcos..
1. the red hands/arrow hand
2. reminds me very the much of the Sinn142 (is it cheaper than the Sinn142 ?)
3. the Lemania5100
Why lemania5100?
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Lemania 5100 to me has the best readability. Forget about squinting ur eyes on the small dials and do some mental calculations @ the same time.
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Yeah that's my sentiment too about a Lemania. They say soon it'll be a museum piece.
I do love the Sinn 142 but the few pre-owned pieces with 5100 is selling at a premium. tried on the 7750 version and it does not have the "wow" factor as the 5100. but love how it feels and look on the wrist.
(http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p186/terrenceterrenceterrence/P1030672.jpg)
That is why the next best thing similar to the 142 and having a history to boot would be the Tutima Commando/Nato Chrono. the integrated chrono pushers looks cool IMHO. BTW anyone knows why "special forces" chronos have only a single sweeping second hand e.g. Sinn EZM and Tutima Commando?
As for the Hanhart, maybe the "nostalgia" factor comes into frame over here. the off centred pushers and the look of it looks real cool. nothing much spectacular going underneath it other than the the whole look of it. but think it'll look great paired up with a vintage bund and leather strap.
(http://i557.photobucket.com/albums/ss14/StampeSV4/mcqueenmysterywatch.jpg)
Mcqueen with a Hanhart
The Moonwatch is somehow a peculiarity with me. It always look better on someone else other than me. i like the look and whole "moon heritage" marketing, but i need to strap it on the wrist again to have a feel. Don't really care much about brand recognition. I recognise the brand and that is more than enough, I don;t need someone else to notice to make me feel better of myself.
The Tudor Prince Date Chrono/Tiger Chrono always makes me smile whenever i see one. it's cute and funky IMHO. The Daytona that it's trying to emulate is always abit light, too refined and too "dressy". I can never carry it off. but the Tudor to me is the working man's daytona :laugh:. Thicker and rougher around the edges.
all four are a couple of hundred different from each other in the preowned market. set myself a limited budget for watches each year, so i try to make the best possible judgement as possible cause i tend to buy and keep.
thanks everyone for giving opinions :thumbsup:
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Of course the Tutima!
Why?
Bcos..
1. the red hands/arrow hand
2. reminds me very the much of the Sinn142 (is it cheaper than the Sinn142 ?)
3. the Lemania5100
Why lemania5100?
It is a real tool movement, robust and reliable. I like it because of the ease of reading. The chrono parts are rendered in red, no mistaking it. The second and minute indicator are large, no need to squint to try and read the minute. The 24 hour indicator is useful, more so when you want to adjust the date and don't have to worry if the time is at 12 or 24, no worry about damaging the movement. Very useful when you are spelunking and have no reference if it is day or night, also if you fly or are in areas when there is long day or nights. You also have the day and date. I would choose the Moon watch if it was still fitted with the original cal.321.
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I'd go for speedy as well.
But if it's my pick, would go for Sinn 156, 256 or the Bell & Ross M1... u can't go wrong with those...
Here's the 156:
(http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/5339/sinn156militarysml50241st0.jpg)
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156
(http://i51.tinypic.com/v74hex.jpg)
Bell & Ross M1
(http://forums.watchuseek.com/attachments/f24/317525d1283140164-help-sinn-156-bell_ross_m1_willv-jpg)
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Perhaps this might be a bit off-topic.
Here's something about the Lemania5100 (Mod. feel free to remove if the link is not appropriate) :)
http://www.chronomaddox.com/nouvelle_lemania_5100.html
... correct me if i'm wrong.. the Sinn142(Lemania5100) was brought to space & tested too. (can't remember the source)
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Tutima +1
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... correct me if i'm wrong.. the Sinn142(Lemania5100) was brought to space & tested too. (can't remember the source)
http://sinn142.fateback.com/
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Just some interesting reading on Chrono:
This Guide briefly examines most of the Swiss Automatic Chronograph movements currently in production today.
First of all, you do not need a "name" watch to get a very good timepiece. Many lesser-known manufacturers use the exact same movements as the Name Brands. The only difference may be of refinement--the higher-end the watch the more the manufacturer may refine, polish and decorate the movement.
Valjoux 7750 This is by far the most common Swiss Chronograph movement in production today. An integrated--designed to be a chronograph--25 Jewel workhorse, this is a highly durable, proven movement. Franck Muller uses it on occasion, as well as IWC, Baume&Mercier, Cartier, etc. An ETA (the largest Swiss movement manufacturer) product, it vibrates at 28,800 vph and is available in many configurations. The 7751 features a Moon Phase and Triple Date; 7753 features 9-6-3 Subdials with Date at 4:30 or 6:00.
ETA 2894-2 ETA also produces this movement. The 2894 is cutting edge, vibrating at 28,800 vph with 37 Jewels. This higher jewel count is mandated because this is a Modular Movement--a piggyback chronograph module is positioned on top of the 28 series movement, itself with 21 Jewels. A remarkable 12.25 ligne in width. These movements are showing up in more and more chronographs. Also available in a variety of configurations. Tag-Heuer, Chopard, Omega, and Baume & Mercier, among others, use this movement.
Zenith El Primero This is probably the most famous chrono movement of all time. Zenith originated it around 1963-4, and it is, with minor improvements, still in production today. It is an integrated 31-Jewel wonder vibrating at 36.000 vph--the world's fastest mechanical chronograph. Rolex used this in the Daytona until 2000, when it premiered it's own movement. Also used in the Tag Heuer Calibre 36, Panerai, Roth, Ebel, etc. If a watch other than Zenith contains the El Primero, it will certainly be advertised as such.
Lemania 1350 Ebel is the prime user of this 30 Jewel movement vibrating at 28,800 vph. Breguet uses a customized version of this in their Type XX. A very tough movement with a reputation for durability and lack of variance. Lemania also makes the 5100, a movement used by Sinn and Tutima.
Rolex 4130 This brand-new Rolex Chronograph movement replaced the El Primero in the Daytona in 2000. At 44 Jewels with a vph of 28,800, this movement has already won praises for it's toughness and accuracy. Elegant three-column design with a phenomenal 72 hour power reserve. Now Rolex, like just a few other Houses, produces all its movements in-house.
Frederic Piguet 1185 At 21.600 vph, this 37 Jewel movement is used in Audemars Piguet, Blancpain, Cartier Pasha, VC, and Brequet, among others. With its exquisite three-column design, it is a favorite of collectors, who have considered it the finest autochrono movement made. Exceptionally thin at 5.2mm.
Omega 3313 Co-Axial This is Omega's Showpiece movement, originally based on the Piguet 1185, but now upgraded to include the Co-Axial Escapement (a large leap in mechanical technology). With a large power reserve of 55 hours, 3-column design, 37 Jewels, this movement is now state of the art (28,800vph).
Patek Philippe 5960 PP's first automatic chronograph movement (2006) is a 3-column design, vibrating at 28,800 vph with 40 Jewels. Complete with a solid 18K rotor and a 55 hour reserve, this is the most exclusive autochrono movement made, and with the Rolex, available in no other watch. Generally available on eBay for less than 80K in platinum case.
As of today, Swatch Group of Switzerland owns ETA, Lemania, Valjoux, and F. Piguet, giving it a stranglehold on the Swiss Watch Industry. It will be interesting; new movements by a variety of producers are now in the early stages of production.
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Lets put it this way, what u like?
You are buying the chrono b'cos of the look or the mvmt itself?
Each of this model has their own unique selling point.
Tutima a good brand with the Lemania 5100, very military feel and proven track record. After sales service and warranty will be a minor issue as not local agent.
Omega Moon Watch a legendary also a Lemania based cnrono mvmt. Share with you all all Lemania based mvmt like the are assemble at Breguet Manufacture formerly known as Lemania Nouvelle (located in Vallee de Joux) b4 being send to Omega at Bienne to be case. The Speedy Pro is like another AP Off Shore being made in various limited edition.
The Tudor Prince Chrono with the ever robust valjoux 7750 (the most understated of the valjoux 7750 being made unlike the famous IWC Pilot Chrono). Value for money among the 4.
My favourite Hanhart Flieger Chrono as with the discon valjoux 7760 (a handwind of version valjoux 7750 with the auto). It should have a slight convex dial and and a bend tip chrono second hand). I think Hanhart will discon all their classic range and focus of the new version of collection. Pls note that Hanhart is one of the watch supplier to the German Pilots during the WWII. A very clean and simple watch. Maybe you should look for the Primus Single button chrono as another choice, comes in auto or handwind.
All above all very unique pcs, and solely depends on your mood.
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duke916sps;
Good read. Its a learning process everyday. Thanks for sharing.
dc
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No poljot 3313 n glashutte cal 39...
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Based on the 4 options , I wld probably go for the Omega.
Duke- good insight on the movements that power the chronos,TQ for sharing.
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No Prob, just something to share. If anyone looking for good value 7750, Ollech & Wajs Mirage MKIII Chronograph is a pretty good pick, probably less than 3K, I think there'
s a shop in Singapore selling this name. Tough good old watch making culture..... not some overpriced ETA rebadge that we see so often these days ...
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Don't forget Guinand and UHR with 7750 (EUR399; cheapest 7750) too.
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Lemania 5100 chrono movement... Really practical as i
do dont need to do mental calculation on the chrono elaspe time.
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With 5100 still need to do mental calculation??? the next better thing is the digital display. :)
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Speedy speedy speedy... :Cheers:
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With 5100 still need to do mental calculation??? the next better thing is the digital display. :)
Lol sorry, i meant to be "dont". I type too fast lar... :Laughing_on_floor:
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Production year, if I can remember correctly:
- Lemania 5100 - 1978
- Valjoux 7750 - 1973
- Omega 3570 calibre 1861 - originally cal 861 (based on cal 321 (based on some other cal)) produced in 1968. 1861 is rhodium plated, with extra jewels, a 1996 upgrade.
- Valjoux 7760 - 1985
I'd go for the Speedy. There's something unexplainable about wearing a watch with a 43-year old movement in today's modern and technology-driven world.
-Mel
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Production year, if I can remember correctly:
- Lemania 5100 - 1978
- Valjoux 7750 - 1973
- Omega 3570 calibre 1861 - originally cal 861 (based on cal 321 (based on some other cal)) produced in 1968. 1861 is rhodium plated, with extra jewels, a 1996 upgrade.
- Valjoux 7760 - 1985
I'd go for the Speedy. There's something unexplainable about wearing a watch with a 43-year old movement in today's modern and technology-driven world.
-Mel
Cal 321 - 1957
Cal 861 - 1968 Oscillation frequency per hour increased from 18,000 to 21,000, lower number of parts and used a shuttle/cam for the chronograph rather than the more traditional column wheel mechanism. Sometime between 1974 to 1976, the metal brake was replaced by the Delrin brake.
Cal 861L - 1980 same as 861 but now with Rhodium plating.
Cal 863 - 1980 same as 861 but with gold plating and Geneva wave
Cal 1861 - 1996 jewel count up to 18 from 17 and a plastic brake (Delrin) has replaced the metal brake. There is a cal 1863 which retains the metal brake and is used on moon watch with display back (it also has a more elaborate finish in general).
Basically:
Cal 321: chosen for the moon and went
Cal 861: built for the moon and did it go?
Cal 1861: sold through the moon and have yet to go
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If anyone looking for good value 7750, Ollech & Wajs Mirage MKIII Chronograph is a pretty good pick, probably less than 3K, I think there'
s a shop in Singapore selling this name. Tough good old watch making culture..... not some overpriced ETA rebadge that we see so often these days ...
Wondering whether u cld post some pics of the O&W if u hv it n ur overall thoughts on the build quality,etc. As u said, quite reasonably priced with ETA inside..
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If anyone looking for good value 7750, Ollech & Wajs Mirage MKIII Chronograph is a pretty good pick, probably less than 3K, I think there'
s a shop in Singapore selling this name. Tough good old watch making culture..... not some overpriced ETA rebadge that we see so often these days ...
Wondering whether u cld post some pics of the O&W if u hv it n ur overall thoughts on the build quality,etc. As u said, quite reasonably priced with ETA inside..
I am still searching for it as the shop in Sing didn't have the one I am looking for (http://www.thewatchforum.co.uk/uploads/1106649515/gallery_240_5_93040.jpg)
however, here's a short wiki on the brand and the owner:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ollech_%26_Wajs
and their web site: http://www.chronotime.ch/
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bro ... Stowa Chronograph 1938 :Jumping:
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Omega Speedmaster Moonwatch are incredibly underpriced for what is essentially a very desired Lemania based movement. Even if the Speedies were to double in price tomorrow to RM24,000+, it would still be quite cheap when compared to the Rolex Daytona and AP Offshore Chrono (which are more than double that).
There are essentially two mass market version of the moon watch, the 3570.50 and 3573.50. One is with a solid caseback and Hesalite crystal (3570.50) and the other is with a see through caseback and Sapphire crystal (3573.50). The 3570.50 features a plastic Delrin brake while the 3573.50 has a metal brake that can be seen through the sapphire caseback.
3570.50 is retailling for RM12.000+ while the 3573.50 is going for RM15,200.
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What?..no PAM chronos?.....I love my 250!
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What?..no PAM chronos?.....I love my 250!
True risti indeed!!!
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Pam chronographs are very nice but they are not exactly value for money. :) They are actually trading at slightly above their fair value.
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What?..no PAM chronos?.....I love my 250!
yeah love the 251 but with it trading round sgd7.5-8.5k used for a 7750, it hardly place it in the bang for the buck category.
would rather get a GMT/Alarm 98 for that price.
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Pam chronographs are very nice but they are not exactly value for money. :) They are actually trading at slightly above their fair value.
I think you just described the entire segment of luxury product my friend....its a luxury, not necessity..you never pay "fair" value for luxury products IMHO
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What?..no PAM chronos?.....I love my 250!
yeah love the 251 but with it trading round sgd7.5-8.5k used for a 7750, it hardly place it in the bang for the buck category.
would rather get a GMT/Alarm 98 for that price.
Ah, my bad..I missed your first post...let me vote as per the question...Omega of course :)
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Pam chronographs are very nice but they are not exactly value for money. :) They are actually trading at slightly above their fair value.
I think you just described the entire segment of luxury product my friend....its a luxury, not necessity..you never pay "fair" value for luxury products IMHO
That's where you are mistaken, my friend. JLC makes great watches at fair prices. While Patek Philippe watches are overvalued. Rolexes are overpriced and so are panerai's. Azimuth a tad undervalued, especially their complicated models (ie. SP-1 mecanique spaceship). Omega's are now very undervalued but is rising fast (just check out the American price list for 2011. Some models have jumped 30%).
What I'm trying to say is that some luxury brands may have already reached a plateau in terms of pricing (unless they want to price themselves out of the market). But there are hidden gems out there that have the potential to grow. It is those that I would categorize as undervalued at the moment.
But you do have a valid point when you said that all luxury goods are overpriced. :) that I must agree is very true. But it won't be a luxury item if it is priced at casio's price point, would it?
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Pam chronographs are very nice but they are not exactly value for money. :) They are actually trading at slightly above their fair value.
I think you just described the entire segment of luxury product my friend....its a luxury, not necessity..you never pay "fair" value for luxury products IMHO
That's where you are mistaken, my friend. JLC makes great watches at fair prices. While Patek Philippe watches are overvalued. Rolexes are overpriced and so are panerai's. Azimuth a tad undervalued, especially their complicated models (ie. SP-1 mecanique spaceship). Omega's are now very undervalued but is rising fast (just check out the American price list for 2011. Some models have jumped 30%).
What I'm trying to say is that some luxury brands may have already reached a plateau in terms of pricing (unless they want to price themselves out of the market). But there are hidden gems out there that have the potential to grow. It is those that I would categorize as undervalued at the moment.
But you do have a valid point when you said that all luxury goods are overpriced. :) that I must agree is very true. But it won't be a luxury item if it is priced at casio's price point, would it?
Value is subjective IMHO...what is fair to you might not be fair to others...in the end it balls down to personal preference/financials/interest/passion....whatever the brand is. Take me for instance..I'd be happy to pay some "unfair" price for PAMs with ETA/Valjoux movements because I am passionate about the brand/design ethos/history etc...and in my view, I am paying "fair" value while obviously it is not to you...and on the other hand I , while appreciate the smooth, creamy JLC movements, I am not taken by its design ethos etc..hence, whatever I'm paying, it'll be in my view not "fairly" priced...
In short, one cannot generalize when it comes to matter of preference (which I think plays a significant part in luxury purchases). Somebody told me back in the year 2000/2001 that the PAMs are overpriced and it has reached peak prices and that its a fad that will come crashing to the ground...11 years on and I'm still waiting for that....(having said that I am still amazed that there are a lot of people out there who is willing to pay USD30k for my PAM360 which I purchased just in November last year....you tell me is that "fair"?)
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Luxury goods are defined as "In general, a good (or service) that is not essential but makes life more enjoyable. Luxury goods are often more expensive and primarily purchased by people with more wealth and income. Using more precise, technical language, a luxury good exists if the income elasticity of demand is positive and greater than one. In other words, as people receive more income, they devote an increasingly larger share of income to the purchase of luxury goods."
Most brand like JLC, Patek, Rolex, Panerai are all over priced. But there are reasons why you pay more for these brands. The watch itself, the movement inside, the advances made in the case, movement and what ever else. It is the comfort you receive when you know when something goes wrong, there is a service center in your country that can sort you out. Even than, the quality of the people behind these service centers differs like heaven and hell, but I digress. Of course you also pay for the adverts, the need to have popular people wearing the brand, fight against counterfeit and a whole host of other things.
In my 20 + years of collecting watches, I have seen and noted that prices have gone up and up with little or no apparent reasons. With regards to one brand having better value as compared to others, let me tell you no. Most brands do not offer good or great value, no matter what you have been lead to believe. Retail prices and actual cost of the watches do not co-relate.
Just enjoy what you have, buy what you want and can afford. Watch companies will price a watch at what ever price they believe they can get away with and trust me, most of the time, they do.
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Another analogy is the Luis Vuitton: did anyone get any discount from them, & anyone refuse to buy it, if within their means? ;D
LV 10 years ago was very cheap. I managed to hog around 5 louis viutton handbags for my mom when I was visiting Europe. Each one costing me no more than rm2k for even the biggest bag you can throw your money at. Ditto for mont blanc. I managed to get a fountain pen and a roller ball pen from their meisterstruck series from way back in 2001 for a song. RM500 for the rollerball and RM700 for the fountain pen in 14k gold. Hehe... I recently got the UNICEF limited edition mont blanc gold fountain pen with a sapphire gem cap and it cost me around rm2k. Yikes!
Nowadays, I only buy chanel, gucci and CD bags for my wife as they are more affordable. LV prices have hit the roof recently.
But now she wants a Berkin bag and a freaking ladymatic. Die lah... :(
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yeah the same goes to "yuppie" jewelry like tiffany, bvlgary and cartier.
bought those silver bracelet and choker for my wife 7 years ago for only USD150 and also the surfer bracelet for myself and a money clip for my brother for only USD120 and USD110 7 years ago.
fast forward now.. the same choker is selling for SGD650 and the surfer bracelet for SGD360.
with the rising economic capabilities of the population in the far east.. i think things would just go up and up and up
just like HK was used to be a economical place to get a Rolex.. but with the Mainlanders flocking down and can buy everything retail without discount, how am I going to compete?
thank God europe is still a lightly "harder" place for the mainlanders to get to due to the visa restrictions, i can still get discount from shops over there.
shops in HK and SG are not for locals anymore... it's for the rich Indons and Mainlanders
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First time I hear The House of Cartier being called a 'yuppie' jewellery. Perhaps we should start a new thread for this discussion?
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I was referring to the more "affordable" line in Cartier like the love ring, trinity ring. that every other female regardless of age seems to have in any developed country. not the diamond crusted panther bracelet.
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Luxury goods are defined as "In general, a good (or service) that is not essential but makes life more enjoyable. Luxury goods are often more expensive and primarily purchased by people with more wealth and income. Using more precise, technical language, a luxury good exists if the income elasticity of demand is positive and greater than one. In other words, as people receive more income, they devote an increasingly larger share of income to the purchase of luxury goods."
Most brand like JLC, Patek, Rolex, Panerai are all over priced. But there are reasons why you pay more for these brands. The watch itself, the movement inside, the advances made in the case, movement and what ever else. It is the comfort you receive when you know when something goes wrong, there is a service center in your country that can sort you out. Even than, the quality of the people behind these service centers differs like heaven and hell, but I digress. Of course you also pay for the adverts, the need to have popular people wearing the brand, fight against counterfeit and a whole host of other things.
In my 20 + years of collecting watches, I have seen and noted that prices have gone up and up with little or no apparent reasons. With regards to one brand having better value as compared to others, let me tell you no. Most brands do not offer good or great value, no matter what you have been lead to believe. Retail prices and actual cost of the watches do not co-relate.
Just enjoy what you have, buy what you want and can afford. Watch companies will price a watch at what ever price they believe they can get away with and trust me, most of the time, they do.
All I can say is I agree 110%
Well said... +10 :Cheers:
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Sigh, PAM00356 has been released and already on the second hand market. Sad, very sad.
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yeah there was one listed on SGROC
dunno if it's sold by now
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yeah there was one listed on SGROC
dunno if it's sold by now
PM you.