Malaysia Watch Forum
Main Forums => General Discussion - Modern Watches => Topic started by: Jules Vega on March 01, 2014, 12:54:22 PM
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Hi All,
I am a noobie as far as buying from overseas forum is concerned. I tried to find some thread here in MWF on pointers from members for such purchase but can't find any. If there is already a thread, my apologies and I would be grateful if you could point me to it.
Few things I am unclear about:-
1. If payment is by PayPal, how much is the trasaction cost? I see that who bears this is a negotiated position.
2. If areowned watch arrives from overseas, would there be customs issues for the buyer? Would the parcel arrive at the buyer address or would it terminate at the customs office for buyer to pick up?
3. What is the customary period for parcel delivery if it comes from the US? Any major difference to the delivery period between a commercial courier and USPS?
4. Any other local regulatory issues that can come up from an overseas purchase?
Many thanks in advance to any member who can help me out on these questions.
4. As international delivery cost is also a negotiated point, any idea what the cost is like?
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me too interested in knowing this... cos i saw few watches in wus n fell in love with its price ;)
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Hi All,
I am a noobie as far as buying from overseas forum is concerned. I tried to find some thread here in MWF on pointers from members for such purchase but can't find any. If there is already a thread, my apologies and I would be grateful if you could point me to it.
Few things I am unclear about:-
1. If payment is by PayPal, how much is the trasaction cost? I see that who bears this is a negotiated position.
2. If areowned watch arrives from overseas, would there be customs issues for the buyer? Would the parcel arrive at the buyer address or would it terminate at the customs office for buyer to pick up?
3. What is the customary period for parcel delivery if it comes from the US? Any major difference to the delivery period between a commercial courier and USPS?
4. Any other local regulatory issues that can come up from an overseas purchase?
Many thanks in advance to any member who can help me out on these questions.
4. As international delivery cost is also a negotiated point, any idea what the cost is like?
1. Paypal fees are around 3-5% depending on seller. Some sellers will ask you to top up 3% some 5%... negotiate. Paypal exchange rate are also unfavourable to you. It's always slightly higher than market exchange rate.
2. No issues. Watches are tax free. But there are circumstances when parcels are open for random inspection and they just want to tax the croc strap that the watch comes with. How much? Up to them.
3. USPS or any other courier service is traceable, if USPS International Express, a week maybe? Fedex will take 3-5 days.
4. See answer no 2. Shipping rates are normally in the bicinity of usd60-100 based on my own experiences.
Always always beware when buying from open forums. Do your due diligence and ask for references.
If feel uncomfortable, it's always ok to back out of a deal.
Good luck.
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Hi . To me, pre owned great condition and beautiful watches doesn't come cheap . Its better to deal f2f or buy the seller cause we have plenty of them in our very own MWF. Do you think pay pal will refund you after receiving something that is not to your satisfaction? Always remember not to be taken in by prices to good to be true.Like the saying goes : if you pay peanuts you get monkeys >> regards tony
me too interested in knowing this... cos i saw few watches in wus n fell in love with its price ;)
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Hi . To me, pre owned great condition and beautiful watches doesn't come cheap . Its better to deal f2f or buy the seller cause we have plenty of them in our very own MWF. Do you think pay pal will refund you after receiving something that is not to your satisfaction? Always remember not to be taken in by prices to good to be true.Like the saying goes : if you pay peanuts you get monkeys >> regards tonyme too interested in knowing this... cos i saw few watches in wus n fell in love with its price ;)
Jules
Tony KPK have excellent points :thumbsup:. About 10 years ago, I have bought Golf Equipment from US.
No doubt their price is cheaper but a lot happened during my purchases. I am talking New
Equipment and not used or Preowned.
1) Make sure you ask them for for details. Verify with them. Keep all correspondence email etc.
You will need them if there is any problem with the purchase.
2) Check the price of the shipmment. They will charge you for every individual item and then
send everything in one box. They wont refund after I complaint to them when I rec the golf club
thoughI have asked them to put all the items into 1 box and they say no, its company policy
but when I received the equipment its all in a box
3) I had 1 case when the seller send the Golf Iron 3 weeks after I paid through Pay Pal. Its wasnt
until I complaint and reported the problem to Pay Pay and Ebay. I received the Golf Iron 6 weeks later.
4) Packaging was good but during transit from US, the Corrugated Boxes get stacked on, squashed
an there was 1 case where the Wood Club Head got dented and there was no refund so far..
That was about 10 years. Then there was a case where the iron set as in loose pieces and no more
in a box when I received it.
5) There was 1 case from NYC where the Golf Club (sand wedges) never arrived and there was no refund
from Pay pal. This was what made me think twice about buying from Overseas. :'(
A good friend of mine told :Scolding: me very nicely this,
"What can you do, go all the way to US to claim from the seller? " I felt like :Blue:
I do buy things from overseas when I go there or when my family goes oversea whereby we can check
out the item before buying them.
Good Luck and this is my 2 sen worth :Cheers:
Jimmy Wong
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Dear Hanz, many thanks for the pointers. They are invaluable . You seem to have a lot of experience on these type of transactions. Did you have any unpleasant experience? Also, would you think that Customs would be more diligent when GST kicks in? Also, why is there a difference in PayPal fees between different sellers?
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Dear Tony, many thanks for the word of caution. I am treading carefully. And you are right, the range of preowns is getting very extensive on mwf and thus attractive. The weakening ringgit is also discouraging. The overseas forum's attraction is not so much price but rather the range, including difficult to find models.
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Dear Jimmy, many thanks for sharing the anecdote . Am sorry to hear of the untoward incident . I can understand if it puts you off overseas online purchases. Anyway it is difficult to resist the instant gratification of in person retail purchase with all of its attendant buying experience .
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Good luck to you Jules,If possible request a hd photo of watch to be taken on top of front page newspaper of the day ( that is with date shown). regards tony
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Always be on the alert when buying online, the best is face to face purchases in shops and AD's.
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I personally prefers to search and hunt in the virtual world. At my own sweet time and leisure. No distractions from sales guys (or gals :-*) and one of the main benefits is that the "shop" is still open after 10pm which is when I have some "me time".
I normally check a few regular sites but will sometimes do a search/google and see where it leads me to. But I always do some background checks e.g. preference are given to those with bricks and mortar shops as well, testimony/references, or regular contributors who are known to others. For e.g. one of my sellers turned out to be Head of a Library in an European country.
I usually pay via bankwire transfers or credit cards. But if you're uncomfortable, Paypal could be a safer option.
Delivery is quite fast using Fedex or UPS (usually 2-3 days) and even USPS is not bad (ard 1-2 wks). Except during the major delays at the end of last year. You can try to nego for pricing inclusive shipping charges.
Good Luck and enjoy the journey!
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The risk is relatively higher than buying it outright from a shop. If you are getting a really high-end watch, it's much wiser not to get it online. Just my 2 cents ;)
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The risk is relatively higher than buying it outright from a shop. If you are getting a really high-end watch, it's much wiser not to get it online. Just my 2 cents ;)
:thumbsup:
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The risk is relatively higher than buying it outright from a shop. If you are getting a really high-end watch, it's much wiser not to get it online. Just my 2 cents ;)
I bought a half-gold Daytona from the USA so it all depends who you're buying from.
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The risk is relatively higher than buying it outright from a shop. If you are getting a really high-end watch, it's much wiser not to get it online. Just my 2 cents ;)
I bought a half-gold Daytona from the USA so it all depends who you're buying from.
Wah, so adventurous of you. If me i wouldnt dare la. :thumbsup:
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I started with Ebay. UPS and Fedex is my choice of shipping. EMS is Ok but higher risk. I have experience with vintage watches with parts that were held together with super glue :Scolding:.
One more thing, anything above RM500 will attract KDM attention ;D. but since watches and clock is tax free I have never experience any problems with KDM.
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The risk is relatively higher than buying it outright from a shop. If you are getting a really high-end watch, it's much wiser not to get it online. Just my 2 cents ;)
I bought a half-gold Daytona from the USA so it all depends who you're buying from.
Wah, so adventurous of you. If me i wouldnt dare la. :thumbsup:
The hardest part is actually the declaration on the wire transfer form...
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Always pay with PayPal and file a case within 45 days,no more, if there is any issue....non receipt,item not as described,shortchanged etc.
I had two cases opened whereby the watch never arrived.Paypal intervened and I got every sen back. Way to go PayPal .Never wire unless the seller is of good repute.Then again,stil not the best way
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Always pay with PayPal and file a case within 45 days,no more, if there is any issue....non receipt,item not as described,shortchanged etc.
I had two cases opened whereby the watch never arrived.Paypal intervened and I got every sen back. Way to go PayPal .Never wire unless the seller is of good repute.Then again,stil not the best way
Yeah totally agreed. :thumbsup:
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Always pay with PayPal and file a case within 45 days,no more, if there is any issue....non receipt,item not as described,shortchanged etc.
I had two cases opened whereby the watch never arrived.Paypal intervened and I got every sen back. Way to go PayPal .Never wire unless the seller is of good repute.Then again,stil not the best way
That is the very reason why some asked to be paid by paypal as "gift" as you can't file disputes for "gift" payments.
Can't blame the sellers though as ppl have been abusing the paypal system for ages.
I sent my item out, together with consignment form and all... buyer filed... got his refund anyway.
Try this... buy any item and pay using paypal, wether you receive it or not, file a report and escalate to a claim... 99.99% you will get your money back... I doubt paypal even investigates claims...
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Always pay with PayPal and file a case within 45 days,no more, if there is any issue....non receipt,item not as described,shortchanged etc.
I had two cases opened whereby the watch never arrived.Paypal intervened and I got every sen back. Way to go PayPal .Never wire unless the seller is of good repute.Then again,stil not the best way
That is the very reason why some asked to be paid by paypal as "gift" as you can't file disputes for "gift" payments.
Can't blame the sellers though as ppl have been abusing the paypal system for ages.
I sent my item out, together with consignment form and all... buyer filed... got his refund anyway.
Try this... buy any item and pay using paypal, wether you receive it or not, file a report and escalate to a claim... 99.99% you will get your money back... I doubt paypal even investigates claims...
What the? That means you get both the item and the money? How does one sell overseas then?
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Always pay with PayPal and file a case within 45 days,no more, if there is any issue....non receipt,item not as described,shortchanged etc.
I had two cases opened whereby the watch never arrived.Paypal intervened and I got every sen back. Way to go PayPal .Never wire unless the seller is of good repute.Then again,stil not the best way
That is the very reason why some asked to be paid by paypal as "gift" as you can't file disputes for "gift" payments.
Can't blame the sellers though as ppl have been abusing the paypal system for ages.
I sent my item out, together with consignment form and all... buyer filed... got his refund anyway.
Try this... buy any item and pay using paypal, wether you receive it or not, file a report and escalate to a claim... 99.99% you will get your money back... I doubt paypal even investigates claims...
Hanz079,
If what you said is true, I think I will order quickly order 1 PP and 1 AL from Ebay and pay through Paypal and make a claim of not receiving the 2 watches and then expect Paypal to refund me for the "Non Delivery" of the 2 watches after I receive the 2 watches. :Laughing_on_floor:
We can go :Cheers: .....
I dont think they will pay so easily. I have not received my Sand Wedge till now and also no refund from Paypal from my experience. :Blue:
Jimmy Wong
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Always pay with PayPal and file a case within 45 days,no more, if there is any issue....non receipt,item not as described,shortchanged etc.
I had two cases opened whereby the watch never arrived.Paypal intervened and I got every sen back. Way to go PayPal .Never wire unless the seller is of good repute.Then again,stil not the best way
That is the very reason why some asked to be paid by paypal as "gift" as you can't file disputes for "gift" payments.
Can't blame the sellers though as ppl have been abusing the paypal system for ages.
I sent my item out, together with consignment form and all... buyer filed... got his refund anyway.
Try this... buy any item and pay using paypal, wether you receive it or not, file a report and escalate to a claim... 99.99% you will get your money back... I doubt paypal even investigates claims...
Hanz079,
If what you said is true, I think I will order quickly order 1 PP and 1 AL from Ebay and pay through Paypal and make a claim of not receiving the 2 watches and then expect Paypal to refund me for the "Non Delivery" of the 2 watches after I receive the 2 watches. :Laughing_on_floor:
We can go :Cheers: .....
I dont think they will pay so easily. I have not received my Sand Wedge till now and also no refund from Paypal from my experience. :Blue:
Jimmy Wong
Sorry, I left out an important detail.
When you buy overseas, use a non traceable postage option... the the seller would have no way of proving your receipt of the item... And you will get your refund.
If the package is traceable and it shows package delivered, that's it... there's no way for a refund even if it's defective...
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Always pay with PayPal and file a case within 45 days,no more, if there is any issue....non receipt,item not as described,shortchanged etc.
I had two cases opened whereby the watch never arrived.Paypal intervened and I got every sen back. Way to go PayPal .Never wire unless the seller is of good repute.Then again,stil not the best way
That is the very reason why some asked to be paid by paypal as "gift" as you can't file disputes for "gift" payments.
Can't blame the sellers though as ppl have been abusing the paypal system for ages.
I sent my item out, together with consignment form and all... buyer filed... got his refund anyway.
Try this... buy any item and pay using paypal, wether you receive it or not, file a report and escalate to a claim... 99.99% you will get your money back... I doubt paypal even investigates claims...
Hanz, I hope you are not being serious.
If you make a false claim, and receive a refund from PP, then PP has assumed the innocent, honest, and unsuspecting seller is guilty and will go after him and blacklist him. All so you can get a free watch. That is lower than low, and I would expect MUCH better morals and behaviour from the moderator of a watch forum.
Please explain.
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Always pay with PayPal and file a case within 45 days,no more, if there is any issue....non receipt,item not as described,shortchanged etc.
I had two cases opened whereby the watch never arrived.Paypal intervened and I got every sen back. Way to go PayPal .Never wire unless the seller is of good repute.Then again,stil not the best way
That is the very reason why some asked to be paid by paypal as "gift" as you can't file disputes for "gift" payments.
Can't blame the sellers though as ppl have been abusing the paypal system for ages.
I sent my item out, together with consignment form and all... buyer filed... got his refund anyway.
Try this... buy any item and pay using paypal, wether you receive it or not, file a report and escalate to a claim... 99.99% you will get your money back... I doubt paypal even investigates claims...
Hanz, I hope you are not being serious.
If you make a false claim, and receive a refund from PP, then PP has assumed the innocent, honest, and unsuspecting seller is guilty and will go after him and blacklist him. All so you can get a free watch. That is lower than low, and I would expect MUCH better morals and behaviour from the moderator of a watch forum.
Please explain.
I guess u must have misread my comments.
Lemme elaborate.
My ebay account is set up since 2001.
Have been an active ebayer for more than 10 years.
These are all based on my own experiences and from reading from paypal scam sites. Do a google search.
1. Once I bought a pair of shoes on ebay... waited 5 weeks. Never arrived... Shoes are posted using Royal mail ground (from UK)
I filed for item not received... escalated to a claim.
Seller have no proof item have been posted as the service is untraceable.
I got my refund.
After another 8 weeks... I received the shoes... box is all crumpled.
I sent an email to the seller saying I will pay him back as the shoes got to me in the end.
2. I sold some jerseys via ebay as well.
Buyer paid in full, I sent using poslaju (back in the day, poslaju international tracking is almost non existent)...
After 4 weeks, buyer filed item not received claim. I got an email from paypal asking to assistance.
I furnish paypal with the necessary consignment form.
No use, buyer got his refund anyway. Reason given to me is that the package is not traceable hence it is decided that the item did not reach the buyer.
Now wether the buyer got his item in the end or not is only a guess on my part.
But I am down both in funds, and a jersey. Bummer.
3. Bought a jersey. Size XXL.
Seller sent me wrong size... L...
So I asked if he can send me the correct size and I send him the wrong one back?
OK he said... he can only send a correct one if he received the old one back.
Fair enough... I sent the jersey back using poslaju (yeah... choices are not much back in the days and international courier using private companies are costly)
Waited 4 weeks. Still no feedback wether he got the hersey back (guessing games at this point as well)
Since time is running out, I filed for a claim and the same thing happened.
Seller can prove that his item reached me and I can't prove the return reached him.
Same story... I am down a jersey... and funds...
4. Ordered a used electric guitar effects pedal.
Received a box of rocks... yes... a box of rocks.
Filed my claim... can't get my refund as well. Why, solely because I can't prove it.
After all these experiences, I searched around and see if there is anyone with the same predicament, which to my astonishment, ppl shared stories about loopholes in the paypal system and how to get around it.
Regarding that box of rocks... Online community told me the only way to prove u receive a box of rocks is to go to the post office to collect the package and open it in front of the post office staff, take a video if necessary... and send it to paypal... go figure...
That is why sellers started asking payments as "gifts" and various countermeasures.
One bad thing when ppl asking for "gifts" as paypal payment is that you can't escalate a claim.
So, sellers have the upperhand.
I am sure for a watch purchase (high value especially), sellers would have had sufficient paperwork to prove item have been sent. (wether the item is true to the description is an entirely different story)
And also take note of 1 thing, ebay nowadays are no more like it used to be.
Individual sellers are squeezed out by the high fees and those occupying the ebay marketplaces are registered merchants solely because individual sellers and buyers are causing so much problems.
Wether you judge me as immoral by sharing information that is available if you just do a simple search... I leave it to you.
Have I taken advantage of the loophole? I find it unnecessary as like I said earlier, when you buy high value items, sellers have already taken all precautions.
If a seller is still willing to post items to you using standard mail, then it is small items or cheap items... and if you think ppl stoop so low as to con an USD3 hdmi cable... then it's their choice...
I am not advocating these type of actions... just letting you guys know it is there.
Deals can go south sometimes and when entering a deal online... it's better to know the ball is in the buyers' or the sellers' court...
Anyone can con anyone if they want to... there are no guarantees.
I do apologize if my comments sounded like I am "teaching" guys here how to scam.
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Dear Hanz
Thank you for the post. It has been enlightening to say the least. As they say, to protect yourself from scammers , first you must learn to scam.
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Ok, enough on ebay.
Back to the original topic of buying from overseas forums.
Based on my experiences... buying and selling.
Both might contradict each other so take it with a bag of salt.
1. As a buyer.
- Do not pay as "gift".
- Check references.
- Ask item to be insured in full (no tax in Malaysia anyway so high value declaration does not matter except until the implementation of GST)
- Label the watch (assuming it's a watch) as "Professional Timing Device" "Scuba Diving Timer" "Chronometer Timer" or something like that, never label it as "watch" to prevent would be thieves.
- Ask for the pictures of the seller packing the watch and seal it with a tape with tamper proof writings.
2. As a seller.
- Always ask to be paid as "gift" (see the contradiction here?) as to NOT let buyers abuse the paypal system and escalate fraudulent claims (although general consensus is paypal will "investigate"... more often or not, buyers have the upperhand)
- If buyer ask you to underdeclare a watch as to lower his import taxes, only agree if he pay you as "gift" and if item gone missing, only refund is the declared value. (now this is abit shady as when both parties agree, the seller has the upperhand now, if you send him a box of rocks... that's it... the buyer is the loser) Reason being:-
1- Buyer can't file a claim as payment is a gift
2- Buyer can file for insurance claim but the claim is only for the declared value (which is low as to avoid taxes)
- From my experience, as of now, poslaju international is a good and cheap way to send watches overseas as it is now fully traceable. Alot of websites like packagetrackr.com can track packages from any courier.
Entering into the deal as a buyer or a seller, one has to understand the risk, loopholes and safeguard oneself against abuse.
Now this is a double edged sword, once u understand the situation from both the buyers and sellers point of view, wether you want to abuse the system or con ppl of a watch or hard earned cash is a choice...
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Thanks for clarifying Hanz.
Personally, I only sell and buy as 'merchandise', only exchange gifts as 'gift'. I rather do things the 'right' way, but that's just me.
I've been burnt twice now in 6+ years of collecting. The worst was a trade with a member of TZ-UK. I sent him two high end G-Shocks in exchange for a Mears, and received nothing. Never again will I trade unless the other party sends me the item first. Let's face it, I have 9,000+ posts on WUS, 3,000+ posts on Watchlords... everybody knows who I am, everybody knows they can trust me. If somebody claims they are worried to send first, I ask "why would they worry?", truth is they aren't worried, they know they can deal with me with 100% confidence. Alarm bells start to ring.
The other scam was when buying my first MM300 off Ebay, thought I was getting a 'good deal'. I Paypal'd the funds, nothing was sent. Paypal was awesome - they took the $$$ back from the dodgy MF and paid straight back into my account. That's the advantage of doing things the right way. Then I bought a MM300 from a well known collector, paid a little more, but was 100% confident in the service. And never looked back.
Buy the seller, not the watch, not the deal. You may pay a little bit more but you'll get your watch and you'll never be wondering "is it real?"
As for misrepresenting the watch value to avoid duties. I will do this if the buyer insists, but he must understand that if anything goes wrong, insurance will only cover the stated value, not the true value. Fine on a cheap watch where insurance is not worth it, but IMO not worth the risk on a pricey watch. Just my opinion, others are happy to take the risk. IMO when buying the watch you should consider the possibility of import duty as part of the purchase price, and maybe even insurance on shipping. Watch arrives and you don't have to pay duty? Bonus!
If you can't afford to insure a car or house, then you can't really afford that car or house - you need to look at something cheaper. No different with watches IMO. Others are less risk averse than me, they have more $$$ to play with, or they like to gamble, or they are just desperate to get the cheapest price no matter the risk, but for me, the stress and worry is not worth it. If I am already paying thousands of dollars, why not save that little bit more to pay for import duty and insurance?
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Thanks for clarifying Hanz.
Personally, I only sell and buy as 'merchandise', only exchange gifts as 'gift'. I rather do things the 'right' way, but that's just me.
I've been burnt twice now in 6+ years of collecting. The worst was a trade with a member of TZ-UK. I sent him two high end G-Shocks in exchange for a Mears, and received nothing. Never again will I trade unless the other party sends me the item first. Let's face it, I have 9,000+ posts on WUS, 3,000+ posts on Watchlords... everybody knows who I am, everybody knows they can trust me. If somebody claims they are worried to send first, I ask "why would they worry?", truth is they aren't worried, they know they can deal with me with 100% confidence. Alarm bells start to ring.
The other scam was when buying my first MM300 off Ebay, thought I was getting a 'good deal'. I Paypal'd the funds, nothing was sent. Paypal was awesome - they took the $$$ back from the dodgy MF and paid straight back into my account. That's the advantage of doing things the right way. Then I bought a MM300 from a well known collector, paid a little more, but was 100% confident in the service. And never looked back.
Buy the seller, not the watch, not the deal. You may pay a little bit more but you'll get your watch and you'll never be wondering "is it real?"
As for misrepresenting the watch value to avoid duties. I will do this if the buyer insists, but he must understand that if anything goes wrong, insurance will only cover the stated value, not the true value. Fine on a cheap watch where insurance is not worth it, but IMO not worth the risk on a pricey watch. Just my opinion, others are happy to take the risk. IMO when buying the watch you should consider the possibility of import duty as part of the purchase price, and maybe even insurance on shipping. Watch arrives and you don't have to pay duty? Bonus!
If you can't afford to insure a car or house, then you can't really afford that car or house - you need to look at something cheaper. No different with watches IMO. Others are less risk averse than me, they have more $$$ to play with, or they like to gamble, or they are just desperate to get the cheapest price no matter the risk, but for me, the stress and worry is not worth it. If I am already paying thousands of dollars, why not save that little bit more to pay for import duty and insurance?
Hi . To me, pre owned great condition and beautiful watches doesn't come cheap . Its better to deal f2f or buy the seller cause we have plenty of them in our very own MWF. Do you think pay pal will refund you after receiving something that is not to your satisfaction? Always remember not to be taken in by prices to good to be true.Like the saying goes : if you pay peanuts you get monkeys >> regards tonyme too interested in knowing this... cos i saw few watches in wus n fell in love with its price ;)
Way to go Jason, Dont self inflict stress.regards tony
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My my.. this thread is getting lively indeed!
My rules for buying from overseas forum are:
1. Buy from a trusted seller.
Do your research. Check track records. Some sellers have been know to be "trusted" and suddenly all deals go south from a particular date. Beware of those who take some time to create a reputation and then go for the kill after that.
2. Never send money you cannot afford to lose.
Now this would be the most important bit. As in any case of sending money and then having to wait for the goods to arrive, there is a risk (small or large) that nothing will arrive or you get a box or rocks. If the amount is more than you are willing to write off, pay more at an AD.
Hanz has volunteered information that may sound bad to some members but that's what the truth is like. Distasteful. Thinking that Hanz would do the unthinkable only if you don't know him.
As posted before, I bought and paid by wire transfer amounting over RM30k+ but the seller was reputable and I had researched for some time. It was still 50-50 trust and luck since he could scam me and still get away with it since his reputation was much better than mine. So I count myself lucky.
Always remember Rule #2
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I had a seller describe as horological device etc,used jewellery.Ended up custome did not understand what horological means and I had to drive all the way to LCCT customs and clarify things.Since then Im just ask them to describe as faulty watch for repair...they should know what a watch is.dicey but I make sure it's fully insured
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Dp, A bird in hand is worth more than those free in the bush. Why should we send money for nothing even if we can afford to lose? Buying a watch is not like going to a casino , why should we take 50- 50 risk ? People , i can give you 101 reasons not to buy expensive watches through the mail from overseas but rather buy locally even if it cost slightly higher, in order to sleep well and stress free for days. Dp , maybe you are lucky but what about the countless who got stung but chose not to talk about it. Fikir Fikir. regards tony
My my.. this thread is getting lively indeed!
My rules for buying from overseas forum are:
1. Buy from a trusted seller.
Do your research. Check track records. Some sellers have been know to be "trusted" and suddenly all deals go south from a particular date. Beware of those who take some time to create a reputation and then go for the kill after that.
2. Never send money you cannot afford to lose.
Now this would be the most important bit. As in any case of sending money and then having to wait for the goods to arrive, there is a risk (small or large) that nothing will arrive or you get a box or rocks. If the amount is more than you are willing to write off, pay more at an AD.
Hanz has volunteered information that may sound bad to some members but that's what the truth is like. Distasteful. Thinking that Hanz would do the unthinkable only if you don't know him.
As posted before, I bought and paid by wire transfer amounting over RM30k+ but the seller was reputable and I had researched for some time. It was still 50-50 trust and luck since he could scam me and still get away with it since his reputation was much better than mine. So I count myself lucky.
Always remember Rule #2
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Thanks for clarifying Hanz.
Personally, I only sell and buy as 'merchandise', only exchange gifts as 'gift'. I rather do things the 'right' way, but that's just me.
I've been burnt twice now in 6+ years of collecting. The worst was a trade with a member of TZ-UK. I sent him two high end G-Shocks in exchange for a Mears, and received nothing. Never again will I trade unless the other party sends me the item first. Let's face it, I have 9,000+ posts on WUS, 3,000+ posts on Watchlords... everybody knows who I am, everybody knows they can trust me. If somebody claims they are worried to send first, I ask "why would they worry?", truth is they aren't worried, they know they can deal with me with 100% confidence. Alarm bells start to ring.
The other scam was when buying my first MM300 off Ebay, thought I was getting a 'good deal'. I Paypal'd the funds, nothing was sent. Paypal was awesome - they took the $$$ back from the dodgy MF and paid straight back into my account. That's the advantage of doing things the right way. Then I bought a MM300 from a well known collector, paid a little more, but was 100% confident in the service. And never looked back.
Buy the seller, not the watch, not the deal. You may pay a little bit more but you'll get your watch and you'll never be wondering "is it real?"
As for misrepresenting the watch value to avoid duties. I will do this if the buyer insists, but he must understand that if anything goes wrong, insurance will only cover the stated value, not the true value. Fine on a cheap watch where insurance is not worth it, but IMO not worth the risk on a pricey watch. Just my opinion, others are happy to take the risk. IMO when buying the watch you should consider the possibility of import duty as part of the purchase price, and maybe even insurance on shipping. Watch arrives and you don't have to pay duty? Bonus!
If you can't afford to insure a car or house, then you can't really afford that car or house - you need to look at something cheaper. No different with watches IMO. Others are less risk averse than me, they have more $$$ to play with, or they like to gamble, or they are just desperate to get the cheapest price no matter the risk, but for me, the stress and worry is not worth it. If I am already paying thousands of dollars, why not save that little bit more to pay for import duty and insurance?
Sad thing about dealings in forums is you are only as good as your last deal.
It doesn't matter if the person has 10000 posts or 1000 positive feedback... when the time that someone decides to scam... he will say that he is an old timer, senior member and etc... but truth is we will never know.
Having a wall of references does not mean that he is automatically innocent.
I am used to buying from a few reputable sellers overseas... paid by wire transfer... risky? Yes.
Now even so, I know what I am getting myself into.
If that particular person decided to pull a fast one and so unlucky that it's on me, then what do I have?
Even if I am the innocent party, because of the huge amount of posts and feedbacks the seller has, does it automatically mean I am guilty? No.
But that's the point... IF he wants pull a fast one, who better then someone who lives a couple of thousand miles away and absolutely no chance of me getting my plight heard?
I remember a couple of years back, someone over at WUS got conned. A fellow Malaysian but working in China iirc.
The Malaysian has next to no feedback and is pretty new.
Seller was considered reputable in the US.
Maybe he thought it was a good idea to scam someone as far as China but the Malaysian was adamant.
At 1st, his complaints all fell of deaf ears... ppl even coming out to say that HE was the scammer.
Imagine the stress and anger.
But he persisted and somehow got hold of some evidence.
He was exonerated at the end but still, it's against a username on cyberspace... the scammer can still make a comeback by just being patient, create a new handle and start being active in posting... do some small seiko deals, strap deals and when his reputation grew, there he go again...
Like I said, there is no guarantee.
I too would like to agree with Donald's view, only enter into the deal being prepared to lose whatever you have committed. It's not that we are rich and have money to burn.
It's that certain people have different threshold towards risk.
Some take more, some avoid it altogether.
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I get what you're saying, Mr. Kong, and you're right, but for those of us who are well established members, who are part of the community and not just random traders or unknowns, I think the risk is close enough to zero. We meet face to face, we go to each other's houses, hell I have even bought a reasonably expensive (US$500+) watch for a fellow collector, with him paying me cash in advance, because he didn't want his wife to see the transaction on his credit card (http://illiweb.com/fa/i/smiles/icon_lol.gif)
We help each other pout with things like US Only deals, we send each other free stuff, we get drunk with each other... we know our characters. One of these guys has an emergency and needs a vehicle for a weekend? No problem mate, take my keys. I'll get the car back Monday, or whenever he doesn't need it any more. I have standing invitations to stay with collectors all over the world - just gotta jump on a plane.
Is there risk? More risk that a bank will scam you than one of those guys.
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To each his own I know but as far as watches are concerned, I take a stance similar to those who would only deal in person. That's because I'm anal over condition and completeness which I am not prepared to sacrifice, or risk sacrificing, for a lower price. Correction, at any price.
I'm not as fearful of deceptive and fraudulent practices by sellers as highlighted, but do harbour this morbid fear of a custom officer's mishandling of the watch during inspection resulting in a dent, ding, scratch or whatever. And/or inadvertently misplacing the vital original papers after the inspection. Too many people I know have shared their sad and nerve wrecking experiences along those lines - all tempted by online prices too good to shrug off.
I guess if one is not as anal or as neurotic lol, an online purchase driven solely by low price makes perfect sense.
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My head's spinning now.......the information is just way too much....and all I wanted was some quick advice on purchasing a "cheapish" watch on WUS....lol :Laughing_on_floor:
But man, this forum is informative, and I thank you for all the effort in sharing...it really does help a lot (in a good way I mean)..... :Cheers: :Cheers:
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My head's spinning now.......the information is just way too much....and all I wanted was some quick advice on purchasing a "cheapish" watch on WUS....lol :Laughing_on_floor:
But man, this forum is informative, and I thank you for all the effort in sharing...it really does help a lot (in a good way I mean)..... :Cheers: :Cheers:
No sweat man, we are all here to learn and help. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Good luck to you. :Cheers:
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2. Never send money you cannot afford to lose.
To me, best advise ever.
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2. Never send money you cannot afford to lose.
To me, best advise ever.
Agreed.
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To each his own I know but as far as watches are concerned, I take a stance similar to those who would only deal in person. That's because I'm anal over condition and completeness which I am not prepared to sacrifice, or risk sacrificing, for a lower price. Correction, at any price.
I'm not as fearful of deceptive and fraudulent practices by sellers as highlighted, but do harbour this morbid fear of a custom officer's mishandling of the watch during inspection resulting in a dent, ding, scratch or whatever. And/or inadvertently misplacing the vital original papers after the inspection. Too many people I know have shared their sad and nerve wrecking experiences along those lines - all tempted by online prices too good to shrug off.
I guess if one is not as anal or as neurotic lol, an online purchase driven solely by low price makes perfect sense.
Your OCD / neurosis is not about the risk of buying online, but buying used. Most used watches will have signs of use. You need to buy new, that's all.
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To each his own I know but as far as watches are concerned, I take a stance similar to those who would only deal in person. That's because I'm anal over condition and completeness which I am not prepared to sacrifice, or risk sacrificing, for a lower price. Correction, at any price.
I'm not as fearful of deceptive and fraudulent practices by sellers as highlighted, but do harbour this morbid fear of a custom officer's mishandling of the watch during inspection resulting in a dent, ding, scratch or whatever. And/or inadvertently misplacing the vital original papers after the inspection. Too many people I know have shared their sad and nerve wrecking experiences along those lines - all tempted by online prices too good to shrug off.
I guess if one is not as anal or as neurotic lol, an online purchase driven solely by low price makes perfect sense.
Your OCD / neurosis is not about the risk of buying online, but buying used. Most used watches will have signs of use. You need to buy new, that's all.
:Laughing_on_floor:
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Dp, A bird in hand is worth more than those free in the bush. Why should we send money for nothing even if we can afford to lose? Buying a watch is not like going to a casino , why should we take 50- 50 risk ? People , i can give you 101 reasons not to buy expensive watches through the mail from overseas but rather buy locally even if it cost slightly higher, in order to sleep well and stress free for days. Dp , maybe you are lucky but what about the countless who got stung but chose not to talk about it. Fikir Fikir. regards tony
Tony,
It's fine if you prefer face-to-face deals for your watches but there are adventurers among us who like a particular model or dial which is not readily available locally or a very good condition piece. For eg., the Daytona I bought was only 3 months old then, with many stickers still on it but priced better than local 5 year old, used pieces. How to resist?
"Why should we send money for nothing" is interesting because then you're looking only at your side of the deal. A seller would also not ship out his goods before getting paid. Once he hands the package over to the shipping agent, his side of the deal is complete.
The people in the world need to learn to trust more, but not blindly.
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To each his own I know but as far as watches are concerned, I take a stance similar to those who would only deal in person. That's because I'm anal over condition and completeness which I am not prepared to sacrifice, or risk sacrificing, for a lower price. Correction, at any price.
I'm not as fearful of deceptive and fraudulent practices by sellers as highlighted, but do harbour this morbid fear of a custom officer's mishandling of the watch during inspection resulting in a dent, ding, scratch or whatever. And/or inadvertently misplacing the vital original papers after the inspection. Too many people I know have shared their sad and nerve wrecking experiences along those lines - all tempted by online prices too good to shrug off.
I guess if one is not as anal or as neurotic lol, an online purchase driven solely by low price makes perfect sense.
Your OCD / neurosis is not about the risk of buying online, but buying used. Most used watches will have signs of use. You need to buy new, that's all.
Lol....did I anywhere allude to the fact that my fears stem from buying used? Would and could not that fear apply to buying new? Shed in another light, would not the risk of buying online pertain not just to deception and fraud but as importantly the dissatisfaction with the condition and completeness of the watch new, used or otherwise upon collection?
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Lol....did I anywhere allude to the fact that my fears stem from buying used?
No, but that's my point.
Would and could not that fear apply to buying new?
Not for me, but for you it obviously does. Whenever I've bought something new online, it has always arrived in new condition. And this goes for everybody I know. I've never heard of anybody buying anything new, and it arriving in used condition, apart from Invictas with the hands fallen off and floating around under the crystal.
(damn UPS!!! :Laughing_on_floor:)
Occasionally you read about a watch that arrives with the regulation out of whack, presumably from a bump or magnetisation during shipping, but even this is extremely rare. And it's not really a case of the item showing wear, just minor internal disruption which can be easily, cheaply, and quickly rectified by any watchmaker. Generally, you pay for new, you receive new, be it an online or face to face transaction.
There's no right or wrong here. Some of us are comfortable with Paypaling hundreds or even thousands of dollars and waiting for our watch (or other item to be delivered) to be delivered. Some of us are worried about scams and so insist on face to face. I've never heard of anyone being afraid to buy a new item online in case it is delivered with wear evident, I could not live like that, but that doesn't mean you're wrong, you need to do what you feel comfortable with.
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Lol....did I anywhere allude to the fact that my fears stem from buying used?
No, but that's my point.
Would and could not that fear apply to buying new?
Not for me, but for you it obviously does. Whenever I've bought something new online, it has always arrived in new condition. And this goes for everybody I know. I've never heard of anybody buying anything new, and it arriving in used condition, apart from Invictas with the hands fallen off and floating around under the crystal.
(damn UPS!!! :Laughing_on_floor:)
Occasionally you read about a watch that arrives with the regulation out of whack, presumably from a bump or magnetisation during shipping, but even this is extremely rare. And it's not really a case of the item showing wear, just minor internal disruption which can be easily, cheaply, and quickly rectified by any watchmaker. Generally, you pay for new, you receive new, be it an online or face to face transaction.
There's no right or wrong here. Some of us are comfortable with Paypaling hundreds or even thousands of dollars and waiting for our watch (or other item to be delivered) to be delivered. Some of us are worried about scams and so insist on face to face. I've never heard of anyone being afraid to buy a new item online in case it is delivered with wear evident, I could not live like that, but that doesn't mean you're wrong, you need to do what you feel comfortable with.
Well said, and agreed.
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Lol....did I anywhere allude to the fact that my fears stem from buying used?
No, but that's my point.
Would and could not that fear apply to buying new?
Not for me, but for you it obviously does. Whenever I've bought something new online, it has always arrived in new condition. And this goes for everybody I know. I've never heard of anybody buying anything new, and it arriving in used condition, apart from Invictas with the hands fallen off and floating around under the crystal.
(damn UPS!!! :Laughing_on_floor:)
Occasionally you read about a watch that arrives with the regulation out of whack, presumably from a bump or magnetisation during shipping, but even this is extremely rare. And it's not really a case of the item showing wear, just minor internal disruption which can be easily, cheaply, and quickly rectified by any watchmaker. Generally, you pay for new, you receive new, be it an online or face to face transaction.
There's no right or wrong here. Some of us are comfortable with Paypaling hundreds or even thousands of dollars and waiting for our watch (or other item to be delivered) to be delivered. Some of us are worried about scams and so insist on face to face. I've never heard of anyone being afraid to buy a new item online in case it is delivered with wear evident, I could not live like that, but that doesn't mean you're wrong, you need to do what you feel comfortable with.
It would appear your response is out of context with my original assertion. Please allow me to repeat myself. I was asserting that my discomfort was not receiving a watch in the expected condition and completeness owing to mishandling stemming from the custom's inspection process - not vendor deception or fraud. And it doesn't matter if the watch is used or new.
Your contention's that if I buy new, I should get new with "no wear evident" - if the obvious has to be stated. No arguments there. But that's not my contention lol. Whether I buy new or used, it's still subject to the custom's mishandling risk resulting in dings, dents etc compounded by misplaced documentation. That's my contention for not buying new or used watches online. So your contention on "buy new, get new" is not what I am saying all along lol. But hold your horses (pun intended for horsey year) sir! Your contention should not challenge but augment mine - I mean aren't we both correct, albeit divergently, in the final analysis? Lol.
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I did order one before, and it was not inspected by customs at all. As long as all papers are in order, its usually not inspected, especially when it is sent using FedEx or DHL
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Sorry if I didn't make myself clear. I get that you are worried that customs staff may damage the watch while inspecting it. I just consider that likelihood to be infinitesimally small. If I was going to worry about that, I would be worried about pretty much every remote possibility in day to day life, many of which have far greater reaching ramifications than a ding on a watch. But yes, as you say we are both "correct", as there is no 'right' or 'wrong' when it comes to this passion of ours.
Enjoy your watches :Cheers:
It would appear your response is out of context with my original assertion. Please allow me to repeat myself. I was asserting that my discomfort was not receiving a watch in the expected condition and completeness owing to mishandling stemming from the custom's inspection process - not vendor deception or fraud. And it doesn't matter if the watch is used or new.
Your contention's that if I buy new, I should get new with "no wear evident" - if the obvious has to be stated. No arguments there. But that's not my contention lol. Whether I buy new or used, it's still subject to the custom's mishandling risk resulting in dings, dents etc compounded by misplaced documentation. That's my contention for not buying new or used watches online. So your contention on "buy new, get new" is not what I am saying all along lol. But hold your horses (pun intended for horsey year) sir! Your contention should not challenge but augment mine - I mean aren't we both correct, albeit divergently, in the final analysis? Lol.
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Good info you have provided Hanz .... learn something new about the risks when buying online
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All in all, the information provided here is good for those who wants to buy online.
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Hypothetical scenario>>> If you receive a package minus the watch and kastams had opened up the box for inspection,would insurance bought via usps cover this "missing content"?
It would be our word against theirs.Of course a police report should be lodged
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Hypothetical scenario>>> If you receive a package minus the watch and kastams had opened up the box for inspection,would insurance bought via usps cover this "missing content"?
It would be our word against theirs.Of course a police report should be lodged
That would be the worst situation to be in.
A police report will have to be made 1st.
CCTV footage (assuming the customs checking area has them) have to be reviewed.
And make a report to the courier company (by furnishing them with police report) and facilitate an insurance claim.
If it is proved that the sender indeed send an empty box while collecting payment, technically it's fraud or insurance fraud... the authorities will go for the sender.
And all this takes time... lots and lots of time...
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I too was tempted to buy on a few occasions but pulled back after careful consideration. ;)
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For a watch that cost at least 5 figures, i will not dare to buy from someone who is gonna send it by mail. Mainly cause
1) Money paid but got to wait usually for more then a few days to get your watch. The wait for your beloved watch to appear in your mail is excruciating :Scolding:.
2) Don't trust the seller, no face to face dealing thus hard to tell whether you will get your goods or rocks :Mad:
3) The high risk that you do not get your watch vs the attractiveness of discount , easily offset the addition discount given.
At least you are guarantee to get what you pay for. :Cheers:
Just my 2 cent
skepticism in all things :Laughing_on_floor:
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If you pay via PayPal,it could be safer as PP intervenes if buyer does not get the watch.The seller must buy insurance as PP can restore the funds to the buyer if no show.Then seller claims from insurance.I have had PP refund me the money when a watch did not show up.
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hi people, before we prevail any further pls go to link n resources and read poor John posted by ck77.This is one reason not to buy USED expensive watches from overseas through the mail which i meant in my earlier reply. And for those people with plenty of money or risk takers Pls . give it to charity,it starts at home. Avoid all these n sleep well. regards tony