Speake-Marin...a worthwhile "investment"?...pls advise.

[Plankton-IkanBilis]

Yes...before I start  "I do understand the general concept that buying watches DOES NOT equate to good investment".

However for certain brands namely Patek Philippe, Rolex and Panerai...it can be the opposite (selected models)

I have my eyes on the Speake-Marin Piccadilly Serpent Calender 2012



- 12,800CHF (US$14,000) for the 38mm in steel and 13,350CHF (US$14,700) for 42mm in steel. (about RM55k)
- 19,800CHF (US$21,800) for 38mm in red gold and 23,900CHF (US$26,324.49) for the 42mm in red gold (about RM75k)

the prices above are comparable to certain PP, Rolex and Panerai models.
Not too familiar with Panerai (sorry, not a fan yet)...but for PP, might just get a basic Calatrava and for Rolex, a gold Daytona or President. Also realised that for PP, the ones that really appreciates in price are the complication models ( price starts more than RM150k).

QUESTIONS:
1. will the speake-marin watch see a deprciation in price (lets say more than 50% in years to come)
2. what is the track record of watches by independent watchmakers being a highly sought after model in later years?

I hope dear forumers do understand what I am trying grasp and be enlightened here. Please comment from the perspective of retaining "ringgit and sen"...not the satisfaction (puas hati) of wearing a beautiful, less common watch.

Note: I am expecting the delivery of my ceramic ss GMT Master next week...yes, its half the price of the SS Serpant calender...but if the later can hold at least 60% of its value in the next 3 years and maybe increase further years later, I would seriously consider getting it as my next watch.

Thanks in advance.

[ck77]

PSM owner, takashi78, for your perusal 

[chrisyen]

so far i see only god can tell this...

many factor can affect the future value of PSM

the age of PSM himself

the later achievement of PSM - let say he invent something different and suddenly whole wolrd know him!

any big name admire his work - let say lady gaga order 100 pieces from him and flashing it in all her press appearance, or mayb our peter here bcom super star tomorrow n he still love psm

[terrenceterrence]

If our Peter vouches for it then it's all enough. 

Peter and our former king both afficiandos. yum char sing song together wei...

[G.MAC]

As a general rule, watches by independent watchmakers tend to take a huge hit the moment it is purchased. Think of around 60% off the purchase price. I have seen Romain Jeromes go for cheap in the used markets. Even Sothis when the maker passed away, the AD start to give huge discounts on the timepieces. Like Chris said, unless he achieved something later, it is very rare for independent watchmaker to appreciate in value. It would but possibly in the lifetime of the next generation and not in the foreseeable future. After all, brands like Patek Phillippe were once independent watchmakers as well.

[takashi78]

To answer your question, i have a No.1 production of a PSM watch in my configuration.
According to PSM himself max 3 produced in this config. As the serpent hands is usually made for the calendar models.
Even the paper used to print the warranty is sourced from a bankrupt specialist paper maker in Japan. Very rare.

I am selling for RM40k only. Are you interested?
Its lower than the retail price in AD now.

Dont forget my config is no more produced and never will be since the production for the old design has stopped.  Very rare and nice number.

If you as a potential buyer will pay me retail then it only retains its value. If you pay me my asking price of 40k then the value went down and you got your answer.

Whats the record of indie watchmakers?
Go look at past result of famous auction house and you should be able to gauge.

So far i seen unless its the Opus-5 or Dufour. 99.999% drop in prices.

Patek?
Heck the ones you see that are displayed at the AD WONT go up in price. Its the ones you never seen ending up in the display case thats worth anything above retail.

Go find post by Bernard Cheong or his blog, many say he is a great in depth knowledge on indie pieces or at least pieces that will retain or gain its value in 30-50yrs to come.
So far his predictions were true for PAM and the Opus-5. Others? Only time will tell.

I will say it again, buy watches that you LIKE, admire the maker or the design or the movement.
Dont buy your watches thinking how much it will depreciate and missed out a watch that you like. Life is too short, if you can afford go for it.
I am guilty of this to some extent but when a piece i like comes along, all logic is thrown out.
You want investment? Many other ways.

Seriously PM me, i am offering my PSM for sale at rm40k if you are interested.

[Godzillaz]

I would say it is a no go for you.

"Ringgit and sen" never sit well in a sentence when describing independent watch. I advice you don't go for it.

If you concern more about the "value of selling the watch" than the "value of owning the watch". Independent watches are dangerous field to cross.

I'm being straight with you here. Please don't take this as an insult.

You are stuck with certain steel sport model of Rolex if you want your watches to appreciate value in the future. Sub and Dayto are you best bet. However the time frame might be longer than you think if you get the modern model. Try 10+ years.

Even PP or PAM are risky bet. A plain Calatrava is guarantee to lose money even if you get huge discount of buying new. Ask around the people who said they make money on their watches you'll find out that they never actually sold one yet. Factoring seller's fees and shipping you're lucky if you just short of break-even.

A sad truth is only 2% of the collectible watches(not include quartz and new release) in the market can retain or even appreciate value.

It's a closed circle games where few are invited. These are the model we hear but never seen in life. Like PP's minute repeater, split second chronograph and yes even a normal perpetual calendar will not protect your value. For Panerai are PAM 267, PAM 21, PreV logo, WW2 vintages. It's hard enough just to see one in real life. What do you think the chances of owning/buying one without paying a premium.

It's every watch enthusiast pipe dream to own watches that never lose value but the thing is it will. Unless you are discipline and do a lot of homework then buy at the right time. However if you do that you kill the passion. You turn into a watch dealer/businessman instead. Do you think prostitute can still enjoy sex?

The harder truth is there's no chance to even be in the game of buying these money making watch model because it's a cartel. These people spend decades doing this. Do you think you can just be in their tuff just like that. Well NO! We're stuck at buying the watch at premium which erode all the profit the watch can ever make.


Please put away the idea of value retaining or else you will end up with a watch you don't quite like or worse HATE because the main attraction is the after market selling price.


If is not puas hati to look at and wear why even consider? 


I hope my honesty doesn't offend you but I really hate to see fellow MWF member end up with a watch their don't like and have to sell it at a loss.


Don't get me wrong I do like PSM. Personally I don't think PP or AP comes close to a PSM. If you still keen to know more after reading what I wrote. Ask me again and I'll post my comment about PSM.

Regards
Tyler




   

Yes...before I start  "I do understand the general concept that buying watches DOES NOT equate to good investment".

However for certain brands namely Patek Philippe, Rolex and Panerai...it can be the opposite (selected models)

I have my eyes on the Speake-Marin Piccadilly Serpent Calender 2012



- 12,800CHF (US$14,000) for the 38mm in steel and 13,350CHF (US$14,700) for 42mm in steel. (about RM55k)
- 19,800CHF (US$21,800) for 38mm in red gold and 23,900CHF (US$26,324.49) for the 42mm in red gold (about RM75k)

the prices above are comparable to certain PP, Rolex and Panerai models.
Not too familiar with Panerai (sorry, not a fan yet)...but for PP, might just get a basic Calatrava and for Rolex, a gold Daytona or President. Also realised that for PP, the ones that really appreciates in price are the complication models ( price starts more than RM150k).

QUESTIONS:
1. will the speake-marin watch see a deprciation in price (lets say more than 50% in years to come)
2. what is the track record of watches by independent watchmakers being a highly sought after model in later years?

I hope dear forumers do understand what I am trying grasp and be enlightened here. Please comment from the perspective of retaining "ringgit and sen"...not the satisfaction (puas hati) of wearing a beautiful, less common watch.

Note: I am expecting the delivery of my ceramic ss GMT Master next week...yes, its half the price of the SS Serpant calender...but if the later can hold at least 60% of its value in the next 3 years and maybe increase further years later, I would seriously consider getting it as my next watch.

Thanks in advance.

[Plankton-IkanBilis]

Firstly, thank you very much to all for the rather prompt responds - Your inputs have given me a clearer perspestive of watches by independent watchmakers (especially their future value).

I consider myself very fortunate that the watches I like and own, namely Rolex do command a respectable resale value (in case of rainy days). So the issue of buying watches I like that does not depreciate that much (especially when buying pre-owned) is no longer an issue - "match made in heaven". That is why all 7 of the 8 watches we (wife and I) own are Rolellies...8th piece coming next week.

Yes, the interest in SM Serpent Calender is genuine...seriously contemplating it as my next watch before year ends...at the same time, being a fan of Rolex, the Submariner 116619 has also "been calling my name". So when push comes to shove, unless I become a multi millionaire in the next few months (and not a single ioata care about issues of depreciation), I guess I will focus my attention and resources on the 116619.

Thank you again. 

Further reinforces my personal belief...applicable to Hans Wilsdwarf... "A small fish with appetite for Rolex should just stick to Rolex...in this pond of limitless horological beauties'

[Plankton-IkanBilis]

Tyler (Godzillaz)...no offence taken at all!...should there be in the first place??

[JOS2012]

This is an interesting subject and I'm glad it was brought up for input by forummers.

I, too have harboured owning a AHCI eventually but once I came down from cloud9, I realised that these AHCI's or indies are meant for people with 100m super yachts which sail to Monaco every now and then, sip pink champagne with caviar in the VVIP boxes at EVERY F1 circuit ( I managed to experience this twice at Sepang only because the actual ticket holder couldn't make it). for such folks, it may not be surprising that they have a drawer full of high end watches which are individually worn sparsely.....(they may not even think that these watches warrant a well cushioned watch case unlike us where we coddle and treasure each piece)

Totally agreed with the rest of the forummers here that we should buy a watch without worrying about its re-sale. IMHO, our choice should be made on how strong the emotional connection is between us and the watch AFTER an informed selection. This informed decision should not be driven by trends, perceived values, endorsements by so-called 'famous personalities' or 'limited editions' due to clever marketing...Once that informed decision is made and you have bought the watch with as much FACTUAL information that you can gather, no one else should tell you that it was not a good buy.. as its your money, your choice, your taste...and ultimately your right..

After years of being bitten by the branded and luxury watch buying bug, we are sometimes numb to the high prices that we come to accept i.e. prices starting from 5 figures RM 10,000 upwards as  a normal price to pay for a branded watch. Prices go up almost every year for some of these clever market driven 'manufactures' and we stop feeling the pain like the frog who never jumped out of the pot of water that was very slow on the boil... he had got too used to the gradually marginal temp increase...........

In order to get a proper perspective of how much watches can be manufactured for, you can buy perfectly working mechanical watches at bazaars for as low as RM 30 each even though they may be lowly mass-produced Miyota driven..

Once you determine the approx cost of the movement, case materials, design elements, etc and made by an actual watch manufacture ( and not an OEM factory which can be any of the numerous individual small watch assemblers located in  Switzerland, HK, China, Malaysia,etc) you need to accept that a huge chunk of your money actually goes to brand equity, exclusivity, advertising, marketing & retail costs

There was once an article that said that watchmakers esp indies are actually much poorer than the conglomerates that retails their watches... that should give you an idea of the actual value of the watch..... (Dufour and Kari are opp ends vs Max Busser and Richard Mille even though they are all AHCI..)

oh.. another thing... for uber high end luxury goods to which AHCI watches should belong to, the ethos is that 'If you need to ask the price, then you really can't afford it..."meaning you should be able to buy such watches with your spare change and not save umpteen years to get one by which time the maker may even be long gone)

[takashi78]

I dont agree fully with this statement "If you need to ask the price, then you really can't afford it...".

This was what i thought and thus i was 2yrs late in buying my PSM watch. I didnt ask before and thinking it was way higher.
Until an event where i asked bout the price and was surprised i could afford.
But at the expense of selling of 2 Rolex and 1 Damasko plus some cash.

As for the OP.

BUY ROLEX. It seems to work for you thus far and you are happy with its "value".

Dont get me wrong, i love the brand. Still love my SD and still looking for another Exp1 when i can afford it.

[Watchnewby]

A very informative discussion by members of MWF.
We learn new things everyday.

[myric]

Thank you all for sharing your opinion.


I somehow agree with takashi78 on .........

"buy watches that you LIKE, admire the maker or the design or the movement."

"Dont buy your watches thinking how much it will depreciate and missed out a watch that you like. Life is too short, if you can afford go for it."

"You want investment? Many other ways."

[David_cheong]

Bravo, all well said...learning many things via these discussion.

dc

[IWCking]

Hans, nothing wrong for you to look for a watch and considering whether it will 'retain value' or not. I notice some of the members here like to sell the ideal of 'buying it if u like it'. I will just say I am minority here. I do consider very carefully on whether one particular watch can retain value or not before i pull the trigger especially for those which is above 15k.

Well, rm15k for a watch is not considered as small sum even for advanced economy standard. So i am not sure if bland people is so loaded until one can go ahead and simply spend 60k without considering its 'monetary value' later. Of course, we all know that watch is not good investment, but i guess it will definitely give us more comfort when we realise that our collection 'gained in value' or 'not losing a lot' after a few years down the road.

There are just so many nice models and brands out there. Unless one is lim gotong's grand son or know how to print money, i see nothing wrong for us to consider the future value of our collections. We will never know if in case of rainy day we may have to force sell our collection. Never say never especially when one's collection is considerable. For instance, I like VC overseas dual time and Breguet La tradition a lot, but i rather give it a pass since the resell value for those two can be quite bad. affordability is one thing, spending money wisely is another thing. We just have to live with our means since everyone has his budget.  its perfectly alright for us to buy a watch which we like while not losing too much money if we decide to sell it for any reason.

Back to the topic of independent watches. Well, save and except highly acclaimed 'independent watch makers' like PP and AP, I think most independent watches will have very bad resell value. I have seemed plenty of them selling at less than 50% of its price at auctions, mind you thats before seller's commission. So, if you are keen, try to scoup out those auctions. There are a number of them such as Sotxxxx, Chrisxxx, Bonhxxxxx and Antiqxxxx. Check them out if you are keen. I definitely wont buy them new.

[Godzillaz]

Actually most watch have bad resell value.

Only few rare model can escape that faith. Namely Rolex Daytona in the 80s and SeaDweller in 90s. For PP it's those RM300k model. Panerai is a messy because price are still fluctuating on its modern post vendome model.

I did this calculation.

A Explorer II 16570 can be bought brand new in the late 90s for roughly RM11,000 and it can still be bought now around RM11,000 but used. That's 15+ years!

A modest inflation rate of 3% I need to sell at 60% above my cost. Would you buy my used Explorer at RM 17,500? 

Anther way of looking at it is. The value of my watch has gone from RM11,000 to RM6,875 in 15 years.
Together with service and maintain cost of say $1,015 over 15 years (modest but believable)
The lost of owning a Rolex Explorer is $4200. Which mean my lost is 38%

The funny thing is ... a new watch from any brand (ok exclude the very obscure ones) bought and sold within 2 years suffer almost the depreciation so all that holding out to break-even with a rolex is ... well you tell me 


I too wish to buy cautiously and avoid great financial lost but the truth is the game is set against us as consumer.

Better work harder and follow the heart 1st then find way to spend wisely is what I learned in this hobby. Save up for that watch you truly desire and have it for a longtime or better lifetime

You don't lose any if you don't sell. 

But we need to make sure what we buy can keep us passionate for a long time. For that the heart has to come 1st.

Hope you guys can have something useful in my rambling.

Regards
Tyler

Hans, nothing wrong for you to look for a watch and considering whether it will 'retain value' or not. I notice some of the members here like to sell the ideal of 'buying it if u like it'. I will just say I am minority here. I do consider very carefully on whether one particular watch can retain value or not before i pull the trigger especially for those which is above 15k.

Well, rm15k for a watch is not considered as small sum even for advanced economy standard. So i am not sure if bland people is so loaded until one can go ahead and simply spend 60k without considering its 'monetary value' later. Of course, we all know that watch is not good investment, but i guess it will definitely give us more comfort when we realise that our collection 'gained in value' or 'not losing a lot' after a few years down the road.

There are just so many nice models and brands out there. Unless one is lim gotong's grand son or know how to print money, i see nothing wrong for us to consider the future value of our collections. We will never know if in case of rainy day we may have to force sell our collection. Never say never especially when one's collection is considerable. For instance, I like VC overseas dual time and Breguet La tradition a lot, but i rather give it a pass since the resell value for those two can be quite bad. affordability is one thing, spending money wisely is another thing. We just have to live with our means since everyone has his budget.  its perfectly alright for us to buy a watch which we like while not losing too much money if we decide to sell it for any reason.

Back to the topic of independent watches. Well, save and except highly acclaimed 'independent watch makers' like PP and AP, I think most independent watches will have very bad resell value. I have seemed plenty of them selling at less than 50% of its price at auctions, mind you thats before seller's commission. So, if you are keen, try to scoup out those auctions. There are a number of them such as Sotxxxx, Chrisxxx, Bonhxxxxx and Antiqxxxx. Check them out if you are keen. I definitely wont buy them new.

[sshark]

I won't buy ur used Explorer at rm175000 now but i might 15 years later. basically u dun make $$ but u dun lost $ either. I have discounted inflation here. but in term of figure, u didn't lose.

yes, if you dun sell ur watch, u probably won't lose other than servicing them. anyway... once u not wearing the watch and newer ones came along, u have no space to store them and those will shallow pockets will hv to sell those u seldom wear to compensate the money u paid for the new watch.

A Explorer II 16570 can be bought brand new in the late 90s for roughly RM11,000 and it can still be bought now around RM11,000 but used. That's 15+ years!

A modest inflation rate of 3% I need to sell at 60% above my cost. Would you buy my used Explorer at RM 17,500? 

Anther way of looking at it is. The value of my watch has gone from RM11,000 to RM6,875 in 15 years.
Together with service and maintain cost of say $1,015 over 15 years (modest but believable)
The lost of owning a Rolex Explorer is $4200. Which mean my lost is 38%

The funny thing is ... a new watch from any brand (ok exclude the very obscure ones) bought and sold within 2 years suffer almost the depreciation so all that holding out to break-even with a rolex is ... well you tell me 


I too wish to buy cautiously and avoid great financial lost but the truth is the game is set against us as consumer.

Better work harder and follow the heart 1st then find way to spend wisely is what I learned in this hobby. Save up for that watch you truly desire and have it for a longtime or better lifetime

You don't lose any if you don't sell. 

But we need to make sure what we buy can keep us passionate for a long time. For that the heart has to come 1st.

Hope you guys can have something useful in my rambling.

Regards
Tyler

Hans, nothing wrong for you to look for a watch and considering whether it will 'retain value' or not. I notice some of the members here like to sell the ideal of 'buying it if u like it'. I will just say I am minority here. I do consider very carefully on whether one particular watch can retain value or not before i pull the trigger especially for those which is above 15k.

Well, rm15k for a watch is not considered as small sum even for advanced economy standard. So i am not sure if bland people is so loaded until one can go ahead and simply spend 60k without considering its 'monetary value' later. Of course, we all know that watch is not good investment, but i guess it will definitely give us more comfort when we realise that our collection 'gained in value' or 'not losing a lot' after a few years down the road.

There are just so many nice models and brands out there. Unless one is lim gotong's grand son or know how to print money, i see nothing wrong for us to consider the future value of our collections. We will never know if in case of rainy day we may have to force sell our collection. Never say never especially when one's collection is considerable. For instance, I like VC overseas dual time and Breguet La tradition a lot, but i rather give it a pass since the resell value for those two can be quite bad. affordability is one thing, spending money wisely is another thing. We just have to live with our means since everyone has his budget.  its perfectly alright for us to buy a watch which we like while not losing too much money if we decide to sell it for any reason.

Back to the topic of independent watches. Well, save and except highly acclaimed 'independent watch makers' like PP and AP, I think most independent watches will have very bad resell value. I have seemed plenty of them selling at less than 50% of its price at auctions, mind you thats before seller's commission. So, if you are keen, try to scoup out those auctions. There are a number of them such as Sotxxxx, Chrisxxx, Bonhxxxxx and Antiqxxxx. Check them out if you are keen. I definitely wont buy them new.

[Plankton-IkanBilis]

As the person who initiated this thread, I would like to thank all forumers for their comments...especially those which had enlightened me on the issue of "Watches by independent watchmaker - How their watches hold `value', in general?"

[Godzillaz]

Well if we excluded inflation then we will never lose money with our watches. Just hold them for 50 years then all of them are gainer.

Joking aside. I don't get what are you trying to say here.

Regard
Tyler

I won't buy ur used Explorer at rm175000 now but i might 15 years later. basically u dun make $$ but u dun lost $ either. I have discounted inflation here. but in term of figure, u didn't lose.

yes, if you dun sell ur watch, u probably won't lose other than servicing them. anyway... once u not wearing the watch and newer ones came along, u have no space to store them and those will shallow pockets will hv to sell those u seldom wear to compensate the money u paid for the new watch.

A Explorer II 16570 can be bought brand new in the late 90s for roughly RM11,000 and it can still be bought now around RM11,000 but used. That's 15+ years!

A modest inflation rate of 3% I need to sell at 60% above my cost. Would you buy my used Explorer at RM 17,500? 

Anther way of looking at it is. The value of my watch has gone from RM11,000 to RM6,875 in 15 years.
Together with service and maintain cost of say $1,015 over 15 years (modest but believable)
The lost of owning a Rolex Explorer is $4200. Which mean my lost is 38%

The funny thing is ... a new watch from any brand (ok exclude the very obscure ones) bought and sold within 2 years suffer almost the depreciation so all that holding out to break-even with a rolex is ... well you tell me 


I too wish to buy cautiously and avoid great financial lost but the truth is the game is set against us as consumer.

Better work harder and follow the heart 1st then find way to spend wisely is what I learned in this hobby. Save up for that watch you truly desire and have it for a longtime or better lifetime

You don't lose any if you don't sell. 

But we need to make sure what we buy can keep us passionate for a long time. For that the heart has to come 1st.

Hope you guys can have something useful in my rambling.

Regards
Tyler

Hans, nothing wrong for you to look for a watch and considering whether it will 'retain value' or not. I notice some of the members here like to sell the ideal of 'buying it if u like it'. I will just say I am minority here. I do consider very carefully on whether one particular watch can retain value or not before i pull the trigger especially for those which is above 15k.

Well, rm15k for a watch is not considered as small sum even for advanced economy standard. So i am not sure if bland people is so loaded until one can go ahead and simply spend 60k without considering its 'monetary value' later. Of course, we all know that watch is not good investment, but i guess it will definitely give us more comfort when we realise that our collection 'gained in value' or 'not losing a lot' after a few years down the road.

There are just so many nice models and brands out there. Unless one is lim gotong's grand son or know how to print money, i see nothing wrong for us to consider the future value of our collections. We will never know if in case of rainy day we may have to force sell our collection. Never say never especially when one's collection is considerable. For instance, I like VC overseas dual time and Breguet La tradition a lot, but i rather give it a pass since the resell value for those two can be quite bad. affordability is one thing, spending money wisely is another thing. We just have to live with our means since everyone has his budget.  its perfectly alright for us to buy a watch which we like while not losing too much money if we decide to sell it for any reason.

Back to the topic of independent watches. Well, save and except highly acclaimed 'independent watch makers' like PP and AP, I think most independent watches will have very bad resell value. I have seemed plenty of them selling at less than 50% of its price at auctions, mind you thats before seller's commission. So, if you are keen, try to scoup out those auctions. There are a number of them such as Sotxxxx, Chrisxxx, Bonhxxxxx and Antiqxxxx. Check them out if you are keen. I definitely wont buy them new.

[Ian Skellern]

It should be noted that the Speake-Marin Serpent is one of the most affordable and most popular haute horlogerie timepieces by an excellent independent watchmaker.

The new Serpent has a movement with a 5-day power reserve and the case is slimmer and I think more elegant than the original.

Many people have, or can buy, a Rolex, but very few have a Speake-Marin.

Here is a post from a recent Serpent customer. http://ahci.watchprosite.com/?show=forumpost&fi=16&pi=5365033&ti=799378&s=0

[JOS2012]

hi..Ian from PxxxxPro & WxxxxxPxx ?

a newbie in MWF but a long time watch photographer and columnist on other international watch forums..

I agree that for AHCI's PSM is very affordable...try comparing with Kari/Dufour/MBF
correct me if I'm wrong.. PSM now has a team of young watch makers under him who work on the simpler movements whereas he concentrates on the haute horlogerie complications... and is it correct that for his entry level pieces, he uses base ebauches..

Thanks and great to see you here...I've been a member of the 'other' forums previously for years and always come across your factually informed posts...

[Godzillaz]

It should be noted that the Speake-Marin Serpent is one of the most affordable and most popular haute horlogerie timepieces by an excellent independent watchmaker.

The new Serpent has a movement with a 5-day power reserve and the case is slimmer and I think more elegant than the original.

Many people have, or can buy, a Rolex, but very few have a Speake-Marin.

Here is a post from a recent Serpent customer. http://ahci.watchprosite.com/?show=forumpost&fi=16&pi=5365033&ti=799378&s=0

WOW! Ian Skellern in da house.  Our Malaysia Watch forum is certainly getting popular these days.

Thanks for chipping in.

Regard
Tyler

[takashi78]

And now he can give us more insight to MB&F

[danny]

Hi Ian,
Welcome to Malaysia Watch Forum, and thanks for the link to the concise and informative post by the PSM serpent watch owner.
Hope to see more of you here.

 

[IWCking]

With due respect, there is no need to even bring in inflation into this topic. 5 years ago, one could grab a submariner with around rm16k. Try to save your 16k into banks and see if you are able to do it now? So, in the sense, I dont think we should really calculate inflation since bank FD interest rate will never be able to catch up with inflation.

I said that many times and i will reinterate again. Its absolutely nothing wrong for one to consider the 'monetary retention value' when one is buying an expensive watch. How to buy, where to buy, when to buy and what to buy is an art. I guess thats what makes watch collection interesting. I like the classic case of PP5980ss. When it was first launched few years back, one can get it at around rm90k. Due to the limited supply and high demand, the watch was subsequently sold at premium price of around rm250k in most asian cities. Then, come lehman brother tsuinami, some collectors able to grab it at around rm90k from some parts of states. Just imagine if you paid for 250k back then and even at current market, one can still grab a new one at around rm140k from parallel importer.

Its a globalised world now. I have bought my watches from KL, Tokyo, HK and even Geneva. At time u may not even have to travel there physically. Ask your relative and or friends to do a favour for you. 5-6 years ago, a friend of mine bought a new sub green bezel at around rm19.5k from KLAD and guess what i only paid rm16k at the same year from Tokyo.

Anyway, life is about choice. Save and except the particular watch is something which u cant sleep without it, then i will say by hook or by crook you should just go for it without even thinking if u can sell it later. But come on, watch makers keep making more n more appealing models. So sooner and later and we may just get sicked of some of our collections. It does not make much sense personally to keep so many watches if i no longer wear them for very long time and if there is no sentimental value to that particular watch, why not just sell it so that i can use that fund for another new love. We just have to live by our means. Nothing wrong with that. Even high income nations like States, Spore, taiwan and HK, you see people ask about 'value' before they pull the trigger. Can afford is one thing and whether is rationale to just buy it is another.

Well if we excluded inflation then we will never lose money with our watches. Just hold them for 50 years then all of them are gainer.

Joking aside. I don't get what are you trying to say here.

Regard
Tyler

I won't buy ur used Explorer at rm175000 now but i might 15 years later. basically u dun make $$ but u dun lost $ either. I have discounted inflation here. but in term of figure, u didn't lose.

yes, if you dun sell ur watch, u probably won't lose other than servicing them. anyway... once u not wearing the watch and newer ones came along, u have no space to store them and those will shallow pockets will hv to sell those u seldom wear to compensate the money u paid for the new watch.

A Explorer II 16570 can be bought brand new in the late 90s for roughly RM11,000 and it can still be bought now around RM11,000 but used. That's 15+ years!

A modest inflation rate of 3% I need to sell at 60% above my cost. Would you buy my used Explorer at RM 17,500? 

Anther way of looking at it is. The value of my watch has gone from RM11,000 to RM6,875 in 15 years.
Together with service and maintain cost of say $1,015 over 15 years (modest but believable)
The lost of owning a Rolex Explorer is $4200. Which mean my lost is 38%

The funny thing is ... a new watch from any brand (ok exclude the very obscure ones) bought and sold within 2 years suffer almost the depreciation so all that holding out to break-even with a rolex is ... well you tell me 


I too wish to buy cautiously and avoid great financial lost but the truth is the game is set against us as consumer.

Better work harder and follow the heart 1st then find way to spend wisely is what I learned in this hobby. Save up for that watch you truly desire and have it for a longtime or better lifetime

You don't lose any if you don't sell. 

But we need to make sure what we buy can keep us passionate for a long time. For that the heart has to come 1st.

Hope you guys can have something useful in my rambling.

Regards
Tyler

Hans, nothing wrong for you to look for a watch and considering whether it will 'retain value' or not. I notice some of the members here like to sell the ideal of 'buying it if u like it'. I will just say I am minority here. I do consider very carefully on whether one particular watch can retain value or not before i pull the trigger especially for those which is above 15k.

Well, rm15k for a watch is not considered as small sum even for advanced economy standard. So i am not sure if bland people is so loaded until one can go ahead and simply spend 60k without considering its 'monetary value' later. Of course, we all know that watch is not good investment, but i guess it will definitely give us more comfort when we realise that our collection 'gained in value' or 'not losing a lot' after a few years down the road.

There are just so many nice models and brands out there. Unless one is lim gotong's grand son or know how to print money, i see nothing wrong for us to consider the future value of our collections. We will never know if in case of rainy day we may have to force sell our collection. Never say never especially when one's collection is considerable. For instance, I like VC overseas dual time and Breguet La tradition a lot, but i rather give it a pass since the resell value for those two can be quite bad. affordability is one thing, spending money wisely is another thing. We just have to live with our means since everyone has his budget.  its perfectly alright for us to buy a watch which we like while not losing too much money if we decide to sell it for any reason.

Back to the topic of independent watches. Well, save and except highly acclaimed 'independent watch makers' like PP and AP, I think most independent watches will have very bad resell value. I have seemed plenty of them selling at less than 50% of its price at auctions, mind you thats before seller's commission. So, if you are keen, try to scoup out those auctions. There are a number of them such as Sotxxxx, Chrisxxx, Bonhxxxxx and Antiqxxxx. Check them out if you are keen. I definitely wont buy them new.