ETA 6497 talk... maybe some justive for the pam

[TheHobbit]

From my understanding (yet to be confirmed), the movements (ETA/ Unitas 6497) that Panerai receives are all with COSC.

I thought the submission to COSC is in every case made by the watch company (Rolex, Omega, Breitling, OP.....)? If Panerai receives movements already with COSC, who submitted them in the first place? Doesn't it sound odd to get movements certified (with all the costs, time and labour expended) and just to have them modified with the result that the earlier COSC is made probably invalid.

That is my understanding. But there are plenty of loose end when it comes to the movement. We know that Panerai buys the top grade or Chronometre grade 6497 movement. But what does it mean? Does the movement come with COSC or meet COSC requirements. I am guessing that it meets the requirements. We know that Panerai sends the movement to Soprod for modification, I am guessing this includes the removal of the sub-seconds pinion. So does Soprod sends the movement to COSC on behalf of Panerai or does Panerai sends it first then have the movement modified? Your guess is as good as mine. Does Soprod just do the modifications or do they case the watch as well? Again, your guess is as good as mine. All these are the dirty little secrets all watch brands keep away from the buyers.

All I know based on my limited knowledge is that all the 6497 are COSC certified, regardless if it comes with or without the seconds hand.

You conveniently answered my 3 questions with 3 questions but I guess I can get the drift of what you are trying to tell.

AS regards Chris' original post above whether the RM 10K is justifiable, I believe it can only be answered on a case-by-case basis and is dependant on the purpose and reason for which you buy that particular watch. I am still asking myself whether it will be worth the extra $$$ getting the AP 15202ST instead of the 15400. Some people feel yes, some says it's crazy. How do we decide??

I believe in most cases, the company sends the movement in for COSC certification. I think this is 'more' true if the company makes its own movement rather then buying it from a supplier. With the case of Panerai, we know that the in-house movement are not sent to COSC for certification and the movement have a pretty large latitude when it comes to accuracy. With the old ETA/ Unitas 6497 movement? I don't really know who sends them in. Looking at Panerai 'work flow', even if the movement are COSC, by the time it get cased and delivered....

Panerai buys the movement from ETA
ETA delivers the movement to Panerai or Soprod?
Soprod modifies the movement.
Soprod delivers the movement to Panerai (assuming Soprod is not one of the company that does the assembly).
Panerai sends the movement to the assemblers (we know that there are 2)

So where in the chain does the movement get sent to the COSC?

I hazard a guess that it is sent when ETA delivers the movement to Panerai. So the movement goes to Soprod with COSC. Soprod only changes the bridge. In the case of the models without the seconds hand, Soprod changes not only the bridge, but also the 4th wheel to one with a short pivot and no post. COSC does not matter anymore in these watches.

[STT1987]

Sorry to disappoint Panerai bashers, but I don't have any problems with my Panerai and I'm posting as such here.
 

....but in your earlier post in this same thread just one day ago you admitted and I quote:

"I've had a similar problem with my PAM000".

So, which is which???

I say, do i have to explain stuff like this to someone like you? I see you are waiting to pounce on anything to "cho khuan" with me? You got me... i am so inconsistent you can safely dismiss me out of hand in which case you can   put me on ignore. I am happy with that or you intend to harass me at every posting with your  "cleverness" and say "why so serious" when i object?

PAM fixed already lah or do you want to "choi su" further? In that case send me a pm or email and we can freely  "exchange opinions" in private.

Or do you intend to fill up this thread with Doraemon and vaguely gay pictures in a passive aggressive show of skirting the flaming rules here?

Bah, in baiting me you have already suceeded in bullying your  way to derailing another Panerai thread. There are many forms of cyber bullying, this is one of them imo. You may be personal friends with the moderators but this is not right.

[Enkidu]

I think this is 'more' true if the company makes its own movement rather then buying it from a supplier.

Like you, I am not 100% sure about this. The "snob factor" within me caused me to look up this COSC issue quite closely many years ago. One of the largest submitters of movements to COSC for certification was Breitling, and we all know at that time (about 10 years ago) Breitling was using all ETA / Valjoux movements. I guess we'll never know.

[jason_recliner]

It's hard to believe that Panerai deemed the base 6497 suitable for their L.E. Brooklyn Bridge model.  What a sham.

[TheHobbit]

It's hard to believe that Panerai deemed the base 6497 suitable for their L.E. Brooklyn Bridge model.  What a sham.

Yeah one of the 'many mistakes' Panerai have made over the years. Pains of growing up to fast and to soon....

[TheHobbit]

I think this is 'more' true if the company makes its own movement rather then buying it from a supplier.

Like you, I am not 100% sure about this. The "snob factor" within me caused me to look up this COSC issue quite closely many years ago. One of the largest submitters of movements to COSC for certification was Breitling, and we all know at that time (about 10 years ago) Breitling was using all ETA / Valjoux movements. I guess we'll never know.

One of the many secrets within the watch industry.....

[Enkidu]

Bah, in baiting me you have already suceeded in bullying your  way to derailing another Panerai thread. There are many forms of cyber bullying, this is one of them imo. You may be personal friends with the moderators but this is not right.

Another panerai thread derailed? When did that happen? I thought this thread is still continuing?

Baiting you? You think too highly of yourself.

Personal friends with the mods? I believe our mods will show no favours to friends. My posts got deleted a few times.

Cyber bullying? Who has been calling others "obtuse" and other more demeaning words?

[chrisyen]

Easy guy! Don't go personal again...

I don't like to pretend old again and act as a dailo to organize a 4466 solution meal

[dpkong]

Is this a Panerai thread? I thought it was a discussion on the ETA 6497 movement?

Damn, I'm truly obtuse!

[Enkidu]

I don't like to pretend old again and act as a dailo to organize a 4466 solution meal

...and as peace offering I will bring along...

[TheHobbit]

ETA or Unitas powered......

PAM00000N or Zero on Wotancraft X MAS Strap.



PAM00003B on Gunny 74



PAM00024C on Ted Su Ammo



PAM00092G Arktos on Wotancraft Faux Ammo



PAM00111H on Simona Alcatraz



PAM00183J Black Seal on Panerai Croco



PAM00210N Radiomir Base on Panerai Jules Verne



PAM00243I on Wotancraft No. 3 X Mas



PAM00337M on Panerai Croco



How did that get in....

PAM00367M on Simona Museum



PAM00390N On Simona Museum



And finally

Ennebi 9660 on Heroic18

[Gabriel]

Interesting topic, personally I don't favor in 6497. If I really buy one, it mainly because of the design of the case & dial fit me. Mechanical watch will always just be my weekend watch that I can't be bother so much on accuracy, In fact G-shock is still my best daily buddy if every minute & second count, I love digital clock/watch for accuracy and my speedo meter too, Digital life. 

[chrisyen]

 Eta 6497 is a fantastic movement
That's y every1 using it

Just it's ugly originally in my opinion
But with redesign of bridges, it can be very good looking...

Better even by adding the swan neck regulator

[Godzillaz]

Most unfinished movement look ugly. Have you seen the raw GS movement?

Regard
Tyler

Eta 6497 is a fantastic movement
That's y every1 using it

Just it's ugly originally in my opinion
But with redesign of bridges, it can be very good looking...

Better even by adding the swan neck regulator

[Enkidu]

Most unfinished movement look ugly. Have you seen the raw GS movement?
Regard
Tyler

Yup, you'll find that in the Marinemaster which uses the Cal.8L35 which is basically an undecorated Cal.9S55 used in the earlier GS.

http://www.thewatchsite.com/16-seiko-reviews/748-seiko-sbdx011-review.html

[Godzillaz]

That I don't know. Now that you point it out. I appreciate my Darth Tuna even more.

Regard
Tyler

Most unfinished movement look ugly. Have you seen the raw GS movement?
Regard
Tyler

Yup, you'll find that in the Marinemaster which uses the Cal.8L35 which is basically an undecorated Cal.9S55 used in the earlier GS.

http://www.thewatchsite.com/16-seiko-reviews/748-seiko-sbdx011-review.html

[terrenceterrence]

Let's get back to the point. It seems that another MyRisti has taken offence and would (i hope not) become another lurker.

Panerai is never and taken seriously as an haute horology piece and neither is Rolex. That is why the bread and butter pieces like the historic and Submariner range for each respective brands are the best sellers.

Panerai is also never about precision timing. As most COSC ratings for modern watches are redundant and nothing but marketing ploys. The range is very much outdated and most good brands have even more stringent and exceeded the ratings.

This whole thread is about whether the 6497 used by Pam after much mods justifies the price and prestige that it commands. There is absolutely no way to check an accuracy of a watch that is devoid of a second hand or markers without precision instruments. If there is by just visual observation, please do enlighten me.

Friendly banter and ribbing is part of life. I seriously have no idea why certain things like this have to be taken so seriously. I have my fair share of ribbing and ridicule by my close friends and even strangers about my taste in shoes, clothes, hairstyle, cars, taste in choosing women (ahem  ) etc..... am I offended? The colours of the rainbow is varied so does our taste in watches....

come in with an open mind... if you always come in with antagony/aggression in your heart everything you see is a challenge. Agreeing to disagree is part of life... just ask Obama.

P.S. Although I have never met A.B. nor own a PSM, but i believe PSM owners sitting down and having breakfast, informal discussion with the person who makes your watch is more meaningful than meeting a person who sets the company direction and strategy.

[Godzillaz]

I agree with Terrence. As long as friendly banter is where we set the border. Then again that's no easy gauge on thing like that.

Is always better to be polite and courteous to other. My personal take on a forum like this, is where all come to share and learn about watches. That belief has help me to stay on and keep coming back even sometimes mean putting up with some of the not so nice comment over here(the whole forum not just this thread). Yes although I am part of the MyRisti group but I myself never once feel the need to participate in a public display ridicule to the panerai hater(GOD, this term is so inappropriate. I apologize in advance). I duly respect the decision others make for their personal choice of brand/watch even though I might not make the same decison myself.


I remember too well that I was once a newbie too and I would imagine back then if someone talk down on the choice I made for my watch for sure I would feel lousy. Whether it's the truth or not that is not the important because in the end of the day. The act of inflicting anger and humiliation on a person is uncalled for no matter how friendly the intention is.

I do wish this place can truly be a place where we Malaysian can come and share openly (with respect of others of course). We started with a good space here pity to see it not turn out to be great.

Regard
Tyler
(I'm still holding on, hopefully forever  )

[Kennypane]

Haha u guys sometimes quite funny la. On and off I check in to read, everytime Panerai is mentioned whether directly or indirectly, and with that Seiko lover using bombastic and articulated England, sure got fight wan, I meant tense exchange of opinions. But there are still nice members around that stay very polite like Ivan. It be interesting to get a few to sit down for some nice dinner like seafood and I can bring the whiskeys as peace drinks for everyone. Just thought its funny. Don't be angry ok, it's only watches. Material things. Cheers.

[Kennypane]

I meant Seiko lover Enkidu.

[Enkidu]

I meant Seiko lover Enkidu.

Ahem...ahem....for you (and only you) Padwan Kenny Panewalker, it's "Seiko Master Enkidu" if you don't mind. Don't be angry ok, it's only about watches, material things. And may the Force be with you...

Yea, I love Seikos. But these days I find myself looking at the Ingenieur increasingly more, and even the PAM 512 which BTW I think is a very nice and slim watch for formal wear. How does the P999 calibre compare with the 6497 in the earlier PAMs?

[swleong]

I meant Seiko lover Enkidu.

Ahem...ahem....for you (and only you) Padwan Kenny Panewalker, it's "Seiko Master Enkidu" if you don't mind. Don't be angry ok, it's only about watches, material things. And may the Force be with you...

Yea, I love Seikos. But these days I find myself looking at the Ingenieur increasingly more, and even the PAM 512 which BTW I think is a very nice and slim watch for formal wear. How does the P999 calibre compare with the 6497 in the earlier PAMs?

I would really like to see you putting on a PAM, and will vote it as MWF Photo of the Year 

[Kennypane]

I meant Seiko lover Enkidu.

Ahem...ahem....for you (and only you) Padwan Kenny Panewalker, it's "Seiko Master Enkidu" if you don't mind. Don't be angry ok, it's only about watches, material things. And may the Force be with you...

Yea, I love Seikos. But these days I find myself looking at the Ingenieur increasingly more, and even the PAM 512 which BTW I think is a very nice and slim watch for formal wear. How does the P999 calibre compare with the 6497 in the earlier PAMs?

Seiko Master Enkidu, the 512 a lovely 1940 casing. Looking at the movement I don't know how it is, compared to 6497, however it's finishing it's quite nicely done and hopefully it's not only for aesthetic reasons but accuracy too. Cheers. Other members may be able to provide more info on its calibre.

[TheHobbit]

Yea, I love Seikos. But these days I find myself looking at the Ingenieur increasingly more, and even the PAM 512 which BTW I think is a very nice and slim watch for formal wear. How does the P999 calibre compare with the 6497 in the earlier PAMs?

The P.999 is a new caliber, 'in-house' caliber at that. Like the 6497, it is a hand wind movement. Power reserve is about the same, but the P.999 is nicer to look at. The P.999 is based on the Piaget 838P movement, but the baseplate and regulator is different. Have never seen the Piaget movement, so can't compare. It is a smaller movement to the 6497. The 6497 is a cheaper movement, but robust and can be regulated to COSC specifications. The P.999 is more expensive. This is reflected in the prices of the watches fitted with the respective movement. Oh yes, in terms of accuracy, in house panerai movements... Large latitude....

[ndtaan]

I think this is 'more' true if the company makes its own movement rather then buying it from a supplier.

Like you, I am not 100% sure about this. The "snob factor" within me caused me to look up this COSC issue quite closely many years ago. One of the largest submitters of movements to COSC for certification was Breitling, and we all know at that time (about 10 years ago) Breitling was using all ETA / Valjoux movements. I guess we'll never know.

I read some where that it is Rolex who is the largest submitters of movement to COSC for certification,correct me if I'm wrong.