Malaysia Watch Forum
Main Forums => General Discussion - Modern Watches => Topic started by: sshark on January 29, 2013, 07:34:53 AM
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I picked this snippet from another forum and find the summary amusing... I don't know if the details are accurate up to the dot. i find his observation was correct in general.
366, remove the "fu" and it becomes the 367 HK Edt which ends up looking like a 111 but with a 0 movement?
0, PVD it, add some vintage markers and it becomes the 360 Ltd Edt
0 again, remove the logo, slap on a clear back and you get the 112 with some decorated movement
112, housed in a titanium case and u get the 176
183, add a logo and you get the 380
217 (grail), change the fonts from Marina Militare to Luminor Panerai and you get the 368 (albeit with 8 days movement)
249 (grail), movement changed and it becomes 448 "special edt"
233, add 2 more days to the power reserve and it becomes a 270
source: - http://www.sg-roc.com/threads/94000-What-Rolex-owners-think-of-Panerai?p=639932#post639932 (http://www.sg-roc.com/threads/94000-What-Rolex-owners-think-of-Panerai?p=639932#post639932)
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All form, no substance?? ??? Not an anti-Pam, but had always suspected that existing core models are replicated with minor modifications, and VIOLA!! another new model hits the shelf, costing nothing less than RM15k! Perhaps the idea is to reach to a wider audience with a product proliferation strategy, fashion-wise and fashion-driven..
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Same same but different, according to ristian.
:Laughing_on_floor:
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The original poster forgot this:
PAM 498 - take away the "FU" and you have a PAM 312 without the sandwich dial.
I find it odd that this is from a Rolex forum.
Rolex has at least half a dozen variations of the Datejust alone, with different price points and model numbers - that's just 2012.
http://www.rolex.com/sites/4/e-brochures/datejust.pdf (http://www.rolex.com/sites/4/e-brochures/datejust.pdf)
I can think of several dozens different variations of the Submariners, Daytonas, Datejust, Yachtmasters, Turnographs - all identical internally except for different variations, Rolex plastered all over the dial/clean dial/pearl dial, steel/non-steel, precious metal or what have you. All the same but different in minor details and prices. You can argue the indignant differences.
http://www.rolex.com/en#/download (http://www.rolex.com/en#/download)
You have Rolex Submariner HULKS, green bezel or what nots. It's still a Submariner internally with differently colored bezels and dials. AND you have Rolex fans salivating here in the MWF and in other forums, paying a premium for these particular differently colored Submariners.
Well, it's okay for Rolex fans to throw stones around since Rolex is god I guess.
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All form, no substance?? ??? Not an anti-Pam, but had always suspected that existing core models are replicated with minor modifications, and VIOLA!! another new model hits the shelf, costing nothing less than RM15k! Perhaps the idea is to reach to a wider audience with a product proliferation strategy, fashion-wise and fashion-driven..
How many variations of Royal Oak Offshore is there? You can argue otherwise but to a layman, they all look the same with minor variations of colors and materials. All watch brands are not immune to the phenomena.
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366, remove the "fu" and it becomes the 367 HK Edt which ends up looking like a 111 but with a 0 movement?
PAM367 is China Edition not HK Edition, Painted dial not sandwich dial, solid case back not display back, ecru lume not white / green lume
0, PVD it, add some vintage markers and it becomes the 360 Ltd Edt
Nothing to say about the 360
0 again, remove the logo, slap on a clear back and you get the 112 with some decorated movement
The legends are above the center point vs above and below and painted vs sandwich
112, housed in a titanium case and u get the 176
yes it is true... just different case material
183, add a logo and you get the 380
Well sandwich dial vs painted dial, solid case back vs display back
217 (grail), change the fonts from Marina Militare to Luminor Panerai and you get the 368 (albeit with 8 days movement)
In house vs ETA, Case material and dial colour...
249 (grail), movement changed and it becomes 448 "special edt"
again in house movement vs eta..
233, add 2 more days to the power reserve and it becomes a 270
as indicated by the post above...
And yes stt1987, I agree with you, people in glass house should not throw stones.
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All form, no substance?? ??? Not an anti-Pam, but had always suspected that existing core models are replicated with minor modifications, and VIOLA!! another new model hits the shelf, costing nothing less than RM15k! Perhaps the idea is to reach to a wider audience with a product proliferation strategy, fashion-wise and fashion-driven..
How many variations of Royal Oak Offshore is there? You can argue otherwise but to a layman, they all look the same with minor variations of colors and materials. All watch brands are not immune to the phenomena.
You are right.. ;). I guess the difference could be in the way the manufacturer put the model number on the variations. Rolex clusters them in groups - eg for DJ, 11623x, for Subs, 116610 LV or LN, for GMT IIc 11671x, etc.. so that customers immediately know they are variations in finishings for the same core product. :o
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They just love triple digits numbers. If I didn't know better I would believe these watches were built for fan boys only. It is like 4D pundits who know when and which company drew a given 4 digits number. I can go to the retailer and said I wanna buy a Submariner or a white Explorer. No, not for Pam. You must speak in code and there is almost no way you (retailer or ordinary folks) can identify a particular model unless it has a distinctive design. I think this is best for the brand. We speak in code. It shows you love the watch and will not mistreat it in any way. It shows you have intimate knowledge about the watch that not even the retailers might know. It is so cool. For those who are passionate about watches, we know what are 16610, 116610LV, 116610LN, 000, 112, 223610, 5711, 111 and 5167. This is so cool :)
All form, no substance?? ??? Not an anti-Pam, but had always suspected that existing core models are replicated with minor modifications, and VIOLA!! another new model hits the shelf, costing nothing less than RM15k! Perhaps the idea is to reach to a wider audience with a product proliferation strategy, fashion-wise and fashion-driven..
How many variations of Royal Oak Offshore is there? You can argue otherwise but to a layman, they all look the same with minor variations of colors and materials. All watch brands are not immune to the phenomena.
You are right.. ;). I guess the difference could be in the way the manufacturer put the model number on the variations. Rolex clusters them in groups - eg for DJ, 11623x, for Subs, 116610 LV or LN, for GMT IIc 11671x, etc.. so that customers immediately know they are variations in finishings for the same core product. :o
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They just love triple digits numbers. If I didn't know better I would believe these watches were built for fan boys only. It is like 4D pundits who know when and which company drew a given 4 digits number. I can go to the retailer and said I wanna buy a Submariner or a white Explorer. No, not for Pam. You must speak in code and there is almost no way you (retailer or ordinary folks) can identify a particular model unless it has a distinctive design. I think this is best for the brand. We speak in code. It shows you love the watch and will not mistreat it in any way. It shows you have intimate knowledge about the watch that not even the retailers might know. It is so cool. For those who are passionate about watches, we know what are 16610, 116610LV, 116610LN, 000, 112, 223610, 5711, 111 and 5167. This is so cool :)
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You are just not knowledgeable of the Panerai brand. It doesn't mean that Panerai names are confusing.
This attests to the power of advertising and the hundreds of millions of dollars Rolex spends on brand recognition. Rolex is the #1 advertiser with nearly 50 million USD spent in the US alone (not counting European, Asian (China/India), Middle East and the Pacific Rim markets). Panerai is does not even show up in the list of top 25 advertisers (it's #30 with just a budget of 2.43 million USD. in 2011)
http://www.watchtime.com/wristwatch-industry-news/million-dollar-club/ (http://www.watchtime.com/wristwatch-industry-news/million-dollar-club/)
So yes - it's no wonder the general public can't name the basic Panerai types: Luminor, Luminor Marina, Radiomir, Submersible.
It's just as simple if not more than the Rolex nomenclatures.
So, if I show up at Panerai AD or Boutique and ask for a, "Luminor Base Logo" I will be met with blank stares? I doubt it. Luminor Base Logo can only mean PAM 000. Likewise, if I walk into the Singapore ion orchard boutique and ask for the "Luminor Marina Singapore Limited edition", they'll say I am out of luck and offer me the "Luminor 10 Days GMT Singapore LE " instead. There are several Radiomir Californias. You can pick and choose which variant and at what price point you want. Do I have some (most) of these numbers memorized? Yes, but for the ones I don't; I know how to name and describe them.
Luminor Base Logo! Don't need to call me PAM 000~! :Scolding:
(http://i.imgur.com/XQ3yD.jpg?2)
It's easy to know if you are interested in them. Educate yourself guys. Here is a link to the 2012 Panerai catalogue. WARNING! IT'S AWESOME POISON!
http://www.paneraicollection.com/web/catalogue/ (http://www.paneraicollection.com/web/catalogue/)
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The original poster forgot this:
PAM 498 - take away the "FU" and you have a PAM 312 without the sandwich dial.
I find it odd that this is from a Rolex forum.
Rolex has at least half a dozen variations of the Datejust alone, with different price points and model numbers - that's just 2012.
http://www.rolex.com/sites/4/e-brochures/datejust.pdf (http://www.rolex.com/sites/4/e-brochures/datejust.pdf)
I can think of several dozens different variations of the Submariners, Daytonas, Datejust, Yachtmasters, Turnographs - all identical internally except for different variations, Rolex plastered all over the dial/clean dial/pearl dial, steel/non-steel, precious metal or what have you. All the same but different in minor details and prices. You can argue the indignant differences.
http://www.rolex.com/en#/download (http://www.rolex.com/en#/download)
You have Rolex Submariner HULKS, green bezel or what nots. It's still a Submariner internally with differently colored bezels and dials. AND you have Rolex fans salivating here in the MWF and in other forums, paying a premium for these particular differently colored Submariners.
Well, it's okay for Rolex fans to throw stones around since Rolex is god I guess.
:Dancing_banana:Thanks for clearing the air.. :Dancing_banana:
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All I can say is "wow lookee another bronze SE!!! Happy happy joy joy." :Laughing_on_floor:
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All I can say is "wow lookee another bronze SE!!! Happy happy joy joy." :Laughing_on_floor:
"Oh Great! Another green Submariner." Let the worshiping begin! :Praying:
:mooning:
Add:
(http://i.imgur.com/J6Yiqq8.jpg)
Fans of a company that produces special edition "gems" like the above, can't pretend that their own kaka don't stink.
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I really hope this thread will have more educational posts. I too still find that Panerai series have been hard to understand.
And while I do like most Rolex models, that leopard Daytona is a hideous incarnation and I will gladly admit it.
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I really hope this thread will have more educational posts. I too still find that Panerai series have been hard to understand.
And while I do like most Rolex models, that leopard Daytona is a hideous incarnation and I will gladly admit it.
dpkong,
Not really difficult. Basically Panerai collection is divided into Historic, Contemporary and Special Edition. Forget about all those 3 digit references. I don't remember as well.
Special Edition includes all those boutique editions, limited editions and special editions. These are limited in number and the year of issue.
Contemporary will consist models with automatic movement and complications like Submersible, Power Reserve, GMT, Chrono etc. Models in this collection can either be sandwich or painted dial.
Historic will consist models that represent the Panerai DNA of yesteryears. Thus far, all models in this collection are hand wound (I stand corrected on this). Most of the models in this collection are sandwich dial, save the Zero and Five (again I stand corrected).
Basically, Luminor means watches with the crown guard and no sub dial for the seconds. Luminor Marina means watches with crown guard with crown guard and sub dial (either at 9 or 3 o'clock). Radiomir is the pillow case watches with wire lugs (may have or not the sub dial for the seconds). Radiomir 1940 is the new case with solid lugs (again may or may not have the sub dial for the seconds). 1950 is the 'pillow' type case with solid lugs (again may or may not have the sub dial for the seconds).
Basic Panerai naming convention also tells you the watch basic specs. For example, Luminor 1950 3 Days, tells you the watch comes in the 1950 case, stainless steel and 3 days power reserve.
Hope this helps.
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All I can say is "wow lookee another bronze SE!!! Happy happy joy joy." :Laughing_on_floor:
terrenceterrence,
Nothing new when it comes to Panerai, what with the PAM00064 and PAM00087, PAM00232 and PAM00249 and the OOR after that or PAM00232 and PAM00294. They have done it before and will do it again. End of the day, collectors have to realise Panerai is just a business and their products, just a watch.
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Let me play:
I concur w hobbit. Watches are products in which industry players will have to sell in order to meet the revenue and profit targets. Just like developers pushing properties w sexy designs n finishes. Or automobile players, etc etc
Even PP in carving a pretty niche at the apex of the pecking order is also pushing numbers. Maybe w class & distinction.
Imo Rolex is the king of marketing in the watch industry. Pam is too far down the rung comparatively. Almost 1 million pieces per year in tens of thousands per piece. All with the common objective. Slight variation in dial, colors, LE SE etc- its the same game all the time. Took me 2 yrs to realise it.
My conclusion: its an expensive indulgence. Perpetually chasing for another grail. I like it when someone wrote "the diff bet adults and kids is the price of the toy". M thinking of taking up photography........not until I gotten my grail. $$$here i go again!, hehe
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:Confused: wait. I thought Green sub is a regular production. Just like a white, silver or red myvi
Maybe you know something I do not. Is it a SE?
BTW, I thought the leopard, SARU and etc... Are all regular production models. Again, maybe ristis are more apt in being able to smell whether pieces of turd like those are SEs or not. Since smelling straps and fondling SEs are their forte.
All I can say is "wow lookee another bronze SE!!! Happy happy joy joy." :Laughing_on_floor:
"Oh Great! Another green Submariner." Let the worshiping begin! :Praying:
:mooning:
Add:
(http://i.imgur.com/J6Yiqq8.jpg)
Fans of a company that produces special edition "gems" like the above, can't pretend that their own kaka don't stink.
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I don't think Rolex ever announce any limited edition watch....
So the sub lv, green hulk, milgauss gv... R not le!
Rolex just love green...
It's the market who keep guessing the production for free will end soon! Pure marketing as well...
So market player can Sell at premium, sell without or less discount later found
Is not le...
To me... Pam, Rolex, ap roo, hublot..... And many brand out there... Creating the light variation to sell more... As long as selling, they will keep doing this, in the end v r in capitalism world, willing seller willing buyer
Brand can sustain mean they r doing the right thing...
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:Confused: wait. I thought Green sub is a regular production. Just like a white, silver or red myvi
Maybe you know something I do not. Is it a SE?
BTW, I thought the leopard, SARU and etc... Are all regular production models. Again, maybe ristis are more apt in being able to smell whether pieces of turd like those are SEs or not. Since smelling straps and fondling SEs are their forte.
The Green Sub, the regular Sub, the NoDate Sub, the TT Sub, all regular productions - they are all categorised as Subs, not just numbers like 008, 016, 289, etc, which confuses the uninitiated. I thought this was the point of the OP. :Startled:
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Beat that
(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s246/ongck77/235_zpscc5adef2.jpg)
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This is foolish. The poster of the other forum should at least do some homework before he post.
This is along the line of saying every Grand Seiko use the same case just different material or in house movement is always better than ETA.
Statement like that really confuse a lot of reader in the forum. Leading them to believe otherwise.
For example
I picked this snippet from another forum and find the summary amusing... I don't know if the details are accurate up to the dot. i find his observation was correct in general.
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0, PVD it, add some vintage markers and it becomes the 360 Ltd Edt
(http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w501/TdBean/p1024653702-5_zpsea856c45.jpg)
photo by paneristi005
Takes more than pvd and add some vintage marker. You need a new dial and case. Only movement stay unchange. That's more than 50% alteration.
If we wanna be critical then these two are no different compare to 000 vs 360 (Just change the case and dial then voila)
(http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w501/TdBean/PAM_is_the_same_zps23c56262.jpg)
Photos taken from the World Wide Web
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"looks like me, sounds like me, but it wasn't me!" quote from a famous guy :Laughing_on_floor:
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it is also misleading by telling selective facts, a trait commonly used by "apa-nama".
it doesn't reflect the real situation by just counting the number of changes. we have to consider the degree of change involved.
using a simple example here.
0 vs 360, dial, markers and case -> 3 minor changes
tag vs zenith, dial,markers, case, straps, pusher buttons, crown -> more than 3 radical changes.
if tag and zenith are deem "no different" then we only have a lot of "no different" watches with 6497, 2824/ 2892, 775x, 5100 taking the lion share of the world watches.
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I am just drooling over the Speedy Missions !
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i just can't resist ... ;D
(http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h242/T10TOC/DSCF2466.jpg)
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i just can't resist ... ;D
(http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h242/T10TOC/DSCF2466.jpg)
Oh... These watches
If got red label... Price much higher...
Got other brand / association / etc logo, price also higher
If hand different, crown bigger... Price also crazy...
If the lume super yellow also price can b higher...
So... In the end, as long as ppl willing to pay... Nothing I can say much...
I can only blame my Datuk never left me any of this...
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Ur datuk didn't leave for you BUT u can leave for ur sons :)
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Ur datuk didn't leave for you BUT u can leave for ur sons :)
I consume too much blue label...
Not enough money left to buy this red label rol
If I hv the amount of money I might consider it or the brand jus for son but I can merely look after it now...
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I can understand what you mean. I am merely comparing cost.
I somehow think the cost of buy a different case compare to pvding an existing case is almost the same. (with the exception of ultra complicated case i.e. Antigua, RM or De Bethune)
We can argue about Panerai lack creativity in terms of designing a new model for the historic line (honestly do we want to be that creative to pay homage ::))
What we can't argue is it cost less to produce a similar looking watch than a radical different watch.
Things that looks different, feel different may not always cost different. The question we need to answer is do we justify in paying a high price.
One thing I salute Bernard Arnault as a savy businessman is the ability to reduce cost while making a product appear to be more expansive.
Then again I'm an odd person and my reasoning may seem weird to you.
Regard
Tyler
it is also misleading by telling selective facts, a trait commonly used by "apa-nama".
it doesn't reflect the real situation by just counting the number of changes. we have to consider the degree of change involved.
using a simple example here.
0 vs 360, dial, markers and case -> 3 minor changes
tag vs zenith, dial,markers, case, straps, pusher buttons, crown -> more than 3 radical changes.
if tag and zenith are deem "no different" then we only have a lot of "no different" watches with 6497, 2824/ 2892, 775x, 5100 taking the lion share of the world watches.