Malaysia Watch Forum
Main Forums => General Discussion - Modern Watches => Topic started by: G.MAC on October 25, 2012, 02:39:23 PM
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I am really ignorant in the field of Seiko. But I am just wondering, how much step up is there from a JDM seiko and a Grand Seiko. How big is there a difference from say a MM300 and a Grand Seiko? Does the difference in the price commensurate with the difference in say quality? Complication? Also, I was told that Grand Seikos can only be serviced and repaired in Japan. Is this true? Thank you for any feedback on the matter.
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Hi, I'm no Seiko expert unlike Enkidu or takashi or a few others here but I do have several Seikos; 2 Seiko 5, 2 Ananta, 4 Grand Seikos. In the past I have owned Prospex, Premier, SARB, Superior, etc.
As an analogy, Grand Seiko is like a top line Lexus compared to a Camry (Ananta), Altis (Prospex/Brightz) and Vios (Seiko 5) in terms of finishing, accuracy, refinement, quality of materials. I can't comment on Galante except that its a jewellry line but using Grand Seiko movements. Credor is of course top dog in Seiko similar to a Bugatti vs a Lexus.
As a reference, mechanical/SD GS are individually assembled, each by a master watchmaker and then adjusted to GS rate/accuracy/temp standards higher than that of COSC but with non-GS (apart from Anantas which are also hand assembled but on a production line), they are mass produced on a automated robotic production line where its a matter of luck. I've a military Seiko 5 that is within +30 secs a week but another higher priced Monster was +20 secs a day.
You wouldnt spend hours polishing, inspecting, drooling over the quality or refinement of a Seiko 5 or even Ananta as you would over a Grand Seiko. JDM Seikos are still Seikos just that they are made in Japan. The MM although being an excellent watch with a undecorated GS movt is excellent value for money but still lacks the refinement in finishing if compared to a GS. The MM is a tool watch but the GS is a office pen pusher diver wannabe.
You have to inspect a GS up really close to see the fine details that goes into its making. The quality of the brushed steel, the tight tolerances between the various components, the precise alignment of the brushed lines, the perfect dial & hands, etc. You can use a loupe to inspect the case & dial n not find any imperfection.
If I made any unintentional errors here, please do correct me..
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Hi, I'm no Seiko expert unlike Enkidu or takashi or a few others here but I do have several Seikos; 2 Seiko 5, 2 Ananta, 4 Grand Seikos. In between I owned in the past Prospex, Premier, etc.
Grand Seiko is like a top line Lexus compared to a Camry (Ananta) and Vios (Seiko5) in terms of finishing, accuracy, refinement, quality of materials. I cant comment on Galante except that its a jewellry line but using Grand Seiko movements.
As a reference mechanical GS are individually adjusted within higher specs than COSC but with non GS, they are mass produced on a automated production line where its a matter of luck. I've a military Seiko5 that is within 30 secs a week but another higher priced Monster was +20 secs a day.
You wouldnt spend hours polishing, inspecting, drooling over the quality or refinement of a Seiko 5 or even Ananta as you would over a Grand Seiko. JDM Seikos are still Seikos just that they are made in Japan. The MM although being an excellent watch with a untuned GS movt is value for money but still lacks the refinement. The MM is a tool watch but the GS is targetted at office pen pushers.
You have to inspect a GS up really close to see the fine details that goes into its making. The quality of the brushed steel, the close tight fittings between the various parts, the precise alignment of the brushed lines,etc. You can use a loupe to inspect the dial n not find any imperfection.
If I made any errors here, please do correct me..
Wow, a really fine collection of hi end Seikos :Cheers:
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I sure hope there is another takashi in this forum.
I aint no Seiko expert by a far stretch.
Only Seiko i have left is a Seiko5.
But i do love me some GS. A manual wind please.
The ultimate for me is still a Credor skeleton ultra thin.
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I am really ignorant in the field of Seiko. But I am just wondering, how much step up is there from a JDM seiko and a Grand Seiko. How big is there a difference from say a MM300 and a Grand Seiko? Does the difference in the price commensurate with the difference in say quality? Complication? Also, I was told that Grand Seikos can only be serviced and repaired in Japan. Is this true? Thank you for any feedback on the matter.
Unfortunately, my only experience with a modern GS is the SBGM003 GMT Automatic. The watch was my brother in law's and I held it on ransom for a while because he borrowed my Rolex. ;D When it comes to GS, I guess JOS is THE man you'll need to speak to. If you are nice to him, he will also bring his whole GS collection for your close and personal examination..... :laugh: :laugh:
Basically, I found the finishing of the SBGM003 to be excellent whether you're referring to the case, the dial or the hands. The crown winds super smooth. An almost perfect dress watch. Time keeping was almost spot-on regardless of the position and regardless whether it's resting or worn on your wrist. The SBGM003 does not have a see through caseback, but you just need to google and find pics of the decorated movement. IMHO the watch is definitely comparable if not better than say a Zenith Elite, a GO Senator or one of those entry level JLCs. The SBGM003 has about 40hrs ++ of PR, but Seiko continually improves its products, so this GS GMT automatic (now renumbered SBGM021) now comes with a superior mainspring which gives it 72 hrs of PR using one barrel. I could be wrong, but I think most if not all new GS autos have at least 72 hrs of PR.
Now to the not so good news. The date change is pretty much like any normal seiko mechanical. The date starts to shift at close to 12 midnite and the shift to the new date is completed gradually after 12 midnite without the usual "click" we find in many Swiss made watches. I know most people do not mind this, but this troubles me a little. Next comes the 19mm wide leather strap. Quality is good but not super. Anyway, Seiko is not known to provide good leather straps generally.
Overall, like most Seikos, I guess you'll get a watch which gives a real bang for your money. But I believe many people may be attracted to owning a GS due to its aura of novelty, exclusivity and perhaps even mystery. These watches are after all not that easily available outside Japan, especially the GS Master Shop selections which are (as I understand) a step up from the "normal" GS. As usual, adviseable to do lots of research before making the purchase so that you'll have a more balanced and informed view. Many watch sites may (I suspect) be guilty of giving overly glowing reviews. If you mine the internet far and deep enough, you'll find complaints about the GS, for example, no micro-adjustment on bracelets, the GS Spring Drive SBGE001 not able to fully charge, deployment clasp problem etc.
The MM on the other hand is a watch designed for the water. Its 8L35 movement is (I believe) an undecorated GS movement. It is definitely a few notches higher than the "Sumo" and far superior than the normal SKX007/009 but finishing wise it's definitely not GS quality. You don' even need a loupe to see unevenly applied lume on indices. Some pieces have bezels that turn too easily, some have bezels that are far too firm. The problem comes from the resistance spring underneath the bezel. Some are bent at a far too steep angle, making the resistance a little too high.
Sorry, I have managed to rid myself of the seiko-fever a while back, so my knowledge is no longer up-to-date. You can get more information from the folks at the SCWF but they generally tell you all that is good when it comes to the GS and the MM 300m.
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I'll share more info with regards to what Loo has said.
My WHOLE collection of only 4 GS is pathetic.. Its not a collection, just a few purchases.
Based on the GS site, ALL current GS Autos are single barrel 72 hrs except the Hi- Beat which is 55 hrs.
2 of my GS are Spring Drives and the other 2 are a 130th Anniversary handwind simple time only watch and the other the 36,000 Hi- Beat. The date on my mechanical GS hi- beat start changing at 11.35pm and by 12.01-12.04 there is a click and it changes completely over to the next day.
My 2 Spring Drives are even better, they start changing at abt 11.40 and completely changes over at 12.01-12.02 with a click.
Perhaps Loo's experience is with the older generation GS. Also I cant comment on all other GS other than the ones I have.
Its true however that there are GS and there are GS. My advice is that if you want to get a GS, go only for the top Master Shop models which are higher grade GS. The prices will also give you an indication.
Base GS can be got for abt RM 10-12k (SD or mechanical auto) Quartz GS is even cheaper RM5-8K.
Master Shop GS are between RM 18-100k.
I agree with Loo that not all GS are top notch. After all you get what you pay for.
Personally I only bought the current 4 models as they are the only ones I assessed were very good quality in terms of all the aspects I was looking for and having specific features such as Hi-Beat, Spring Drive, limited hand wind calibre, etc..
Loo is also right that there is no micro adjustment deployant but my SBGA031 titanium diver has a wonderful, very easy to use, adjustable deployant clasp. I was told that this was introduced earlier than Rolex Sub's glide lock thingy.
Loo is also right abt the general quality of Seiko leather which does not match the Swiss. But thats where you need to be very selective. My 130 Anniversary limited hand wind edition cmoes with a lovely lizard skin strap that is so supple. Googling the net on lizard skin, I found that the quality of that strap is the highest lizard grade based on the texture of the skin. The smaller the rings on the lizard skin the higher the quality.
As for deployant clasps, so far the 3 GS on the metal bracelet deployants has worked perfectly. I'm sure there are lemons but the onus is on the buyer to test kau kau before buying.
Loo is also right that part of GS allure is in its scarcity. I wont even use the word 'exclusivity'. Only a few GS models are limited edition but annual regular GS production also runs in only tens of thousands instead of millions but more because Seiko does not have the capacity for these labour intensive GS models instead of the automated production line models like its Seiko 5s, Prospex, Brightz, SARBs, etc which are churned out in the millions annually.
Hope this helps.
I am really ignorant in the field of Seiko. But I am just wondering, how much step up is there from a JDM seiko and a Grand Seiko. How big is there a difference from say a MM300 and a Grand Seiko? Does the difference in the price commensurate with the difference in say quality? Complication? Also, I was told that Grand Seikos can only be serviced and repaired in Japan. Is this true? Thank you for any feedback on the matter.
Unfortunately, my only experience with a modern GS is the SBGM003 GMT Automatic. The watch was my brother in law's and I held it on ransom for a while because he borrowed my Rolex. ;D When it comes to GS, I guess JOS is THE man you'll need to speak to. If you are nice to him, he will also bring his whole GS collection for your close and personal examination..... :laugh: :laugh:
Basically, I found the finishing of the SBGM003 to be excellent whether you're referring to the case, the dial or the hands. The crown winds super smooth. An almost perfect dress watch. Time keeping was almost spot-on regardless of the position and regardless whether it's resting or worn on your wrist. The SBGM003 does not have a see through caseback, but you just need to google and find pics of the decorated movement. IMHO the watch is definitely comparable if not better than say a Zenith Elite, a GO Senator or one of those entry level JLCs. The SBGM003 has about 40hrs ++ of PR, but Seiko continually improves its products, so this GS GMT automatic (now renumbered SBGM021) now comes with a superior mainspring which gives it 72 hrs of PR using one barrel. I could be wrong, but I think most if not all new GS autos have at least 72 hrs of PR.
Now to the not so good news. The date change is pretty much like any normal seiko mechanical. The date starts to shift at close to 12 midnite and the shift to the new date is completed gradually after 12 midnite without the usual "click" we find in many Swiss made watches. I know most people do not mind this, but this troubles me a little. Next comes the 19mm wide leather strap. Quality is good but not super. Anyway, Seiko is not known to provide good leather straps generally.
Overall, like most Seikos, I guess you'll get a watch which gives a real bang for your money. But I believe many people may be attracted to owning a GS due to its aura of novelty, exclusivity and perhaps even mystery. These watches are after all not that easily available outside Japan, especially the GS Master Shop selections which are (as I understand) a step up from the "normal" GS. As usual, adviseable to do lots of research before making the purchase so that you'll have a more balanced and informed view. Many watch sites may (I suspect) be guilty of giving overly glowing reviews. If you mine the internet far and deep enough, you'll find complaints about the GS, for example, no micro-adjustment on bracelets, the GS Spring Drive SBGE001 not able to fully charge, deployment clasp problem etc.
The MM on the other hand is a watch designed for the water. Its 8L35 movement is (I believe) an undecorated GS movement. It is definitely a few notches higher than the "Sumo" and far superior than the normal SKX007/009 but finishing wise it's definitely not GS quality. You don' even need a loupe to see unevenly applied lume on indices. Some pieces have bezels that turn too easily, some have bezels that are far too firm. The problem comes from the resistance spring underneath the bezel. Some are bent at a far too steep angle, making the resistance a little too high.
Sorry, I have managed to rid myself of the seiko-fever a while back, so my knowledge is no longer up-to-date. You can get more information from the folks at the SCWF but they generally tell you all that is good when it comes to the GS and the MM 300m.
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Most expensive seiko I have ever owned is the Marinemaster and I might want to add is that it is so hunky and well built that it puts my Rolex sub to shame.Wears heavier,taller and the glidelock clasp system is a joy to use altho the newer sub 116610 has a similar GL system but at a price.
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Since there is a little bit of chatter about Seiko 5 here, I'd like to know how badly is the timekeeping aspects?
I saw a simple Seiko 5 model with a list price of only RM330 and it was an automatic. I didn't check the model number. What kind of accuracy can I expect with this watch? Would make a nice starter watch.
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hi dp, refer to my post above..
As a reference mechanical GS are individually hand assembled and then adjusted within higher specs than COSC "but non-GS are mass produced on a automated production line where its a matter of luck. I've a military Seiko 5 that is within 30 secs a week (abt +4 secs/day) but another higher priced Monster was +20 secs a day." Most Seiko 5's run between +15 to +25/day but then its only a few hundred bucks for an in-house auto...
Since there is a little bit of chatter about Seiko 5 here, I'd like to know how badly is the timekeeping aspects?
I saw a simple Seiko 5 model with a list price of only RM330 and it was an automatic. I didn't check the model number. What kind of accuracy can I expect with this watch? Would make a nice starter watch.
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I have a number of Seiko and if you compared each of them with the equivalent type by other brands in the same price range, Seiko invariable wins.
As a brand, it has all the necessary pre-requisite to be a high-end brand; family managed, own design and manufacturing capabilities, products to cover all needs and price levels etc.
Seiko gets seal of approval! :thumbsup:
Problems comes when you compare the watch to your own ideal needs. In this situation you will never be satisfied. Be reminded the watch is a mechanical instrument. When it stars to move away from just a tool into an art piece, expect the price to fly too!
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Seikos which uses the 7S26/36 movements for example are definitely not regulated as they are cheap to begin with.I have had dozens which passed thru my hands and it is hit and miss.Sometimes I get ones runiing within 3 s a day and mostly +- 20 sec or so a day.My marinemaster however within COSC specs :Cheers:
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I was considering to upgrade to a Grand Seiko. Before I can make that leap, I have to find out about GS as a whole. Having owned the Monster and the SRP233K1, I finally bought the MM300 from a forum member. It was fantastic in all aspects. When my local dealer had one GS used for sale in his other outlet in another state, I was feeling the itch but the GS is expensive so I have to find out whether it is worth the extra cash. If it is not going to feel much different from the MM300, then I dont think it would be worth the extra top-up.
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I think the only way to convince yourself is to go view a GS in the metal (btw bring a loupe with you)…esp. since you have the MM, compare it to the SBGA031 as they are both dive watches and quite similar in outlook. I have the SBGA031…
Or you can go this link
http://www.grand-seiko.com/
Which country r u located?
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I sure hope there is another takashi in this forum.
I aint no Seiko expert by a far stretch.
Only Seiko i have left is a Seiko5.
But i do love me some GS. A manual wind please.
The ultimate for me is still a Credor skeleton ultra thin.
Let me guess ur age!!! U hv very uncle taste!!!
Err... R u 50+
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Yes i do. So what.
And your point is?
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Am temporarily located in Australia till beginning of next year. The local grey dealer had a GS going for a really good price and was tempted but my lack of knowledge plus my hesitation means I missed it once I had enough information and ready to make the leap. Oh well, there will always be another. In the mean time if anyone has any information on GS, do share as it is refreshing to learn something new every now and then.
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I have a JDM Seiko (SARB035), that is part of their 'Mechanical' line with a 6r15 movement. Without comparing to any GS, the watch does not look and feel like an 'average' Seiko 5s that we get. The finishing on the dial, the polish on the bezel and the sides of the case really felt like it was built to a standard. And the movement on mine is losing an avg of 1 minute for a month. I'd say that is pretty darn accurate as well.
Sure, if we were to compare it side by side with the 'cheapest' GS SBGR055, for example, you'd get finer case detailing, hands and dials that looked good even under a loupe, and the movements are better decorated and regulated to well beyond COSC standards but then again, this GS can buy 6-7 of my SARB035. Point of diminishing returns do exists I guess.
The thing is, I'm always impressed with what Seiko is able to come up with, by only spending a modest outlay of cash.