Malaysia Watch Forum
Main Forums => General Discussion - Modern Watches => Topic started by: IWCking on April 01, 2012, 04:58:26 PM
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Well, i actually started putting in my hard earned money in swiss watches since around 7-8 years ago. Back then, except Pam and rollie, most of the ADs still gave very generous discount for some high end brands.
However, I notice that these few years, perhaps with the help of a lot of brothers and sisters here, most ADs seem to start reducing their discount given. Therefore, some of our poisons seem to get more and more expensive in light of the annual price adjustment and lesser discount.
But despite all of these, I am a bit disappointed that most of my collections still have to depreciate considerably whenever i asked the market trade in rate for my collections. Of course, you may want to say that so long as you like your collections, why bother? True say, but its our hard earned money afterall. So, on one hand, we have concern that if we dont buy it now, the time pieces may just get too expensive later without our reach. On the other hand, if we keep buying, our poison will just keep deepening and its hard to sustain in long term for us without breaking our bank accounts especially since most time pieces will not retain value.
Not sure whats your thoughts on this?
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Watches are not meant to be an investment vehicle anyway.
Just be happy that you still can trade in the used pieces and top up for something new.
If you come from a point of view that even with the annual increases and lesser discounts, by right your collection's value should have grown instead the other way round, then you're bound to be disappointed.
I wonder who started the point of view that watches are a good investment?
Patek? With the auction houses closing sales on million dollar watches?
Those are really rare and exceptional pieces... not all should be treated as such.
The most common question one get on forums is:
"I am buying my 1st serious watch, what's a good watch to invest?"
"I am buying a new _____ (enter any brand here), is it a good investment?"
I have no idea where this "investment" thing came about...
And it seems to be sending the wrong message.
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bro, u must b buying those uncommon brand which discount range ard 35% to 60%. with such discount for sure u cant resist. but tis type of wacth only a handful ppl will know how to appreciate.
for me is simple, i will buy something i like n oso common brand. u wont loose alot when u wan to trade or u might make a little compare to the price u paid previously. so u wont c i m buying uncommon brand even tho i love it so much
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I have no idea where this "investment" thing came about...
And it seems to be sending the wrong message.
I won't say watches are not worthy investments, but watches are seldom (if not never) good investments. Unless a massive asteroid falls onto Switzerland (especially onto Geneva where this one brand which just released this thing called Sky-Dweller makes its watches) and wipes out the whole watchmaking industry in Switzerland, and the Russians invade eastern part of Germany again, and a big tsunami sinks the whole of Japan, the value of your watch collection will not match the investment if you had put your money into FD or properties or KLSE (very, very carefully in this case).
In 2001, there was a craze on Explorer 1 and 2. I remember the 114270 selling for RM 14.6K at Lot 10 HG. The black dial Ex II was selling for RM 14.5k. If one had bought then hoping they would be good investments, well I guess he'l be deeply disappointed today and wished he had used the money to sign up for a 14-day tour across the Silk Road together with his wife instead.
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A car is seldom if not a good investment at ALL.
But yet i still see alot of ppl still change cars every couple of years.
A hobby is just that.. a hobby. very few and far inbetween a hobby is profitable. if it is in every single hit... then it's not a hobby, it's a side business; a profitable-enjoyable-side-business. if you see it as an investment, then again, it's an investment like ur funds and shares and not a hobby.
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anyone who buys a NEW watch from an AD and hopes to make profit or suffer little loss when selling the said watch is in for a serious disappointment, even with Rolex.
the moment the AD puts a date on the card and you put it on your wrist and walk out the store, it's a pre-owned watch and you just lost at least 25% of what you paid for it. even if the ADs raise prices 5% every year, it doesn't mean your pre-owned watch will go up 5% as well.
let's say you buy the watch but never wear it or take off the stickers. the AD still dates the warranty card. trying to sell the watch as Brand New In Box a few years later will still not get you the purchase price or better simply because it is out of manufacturer's warranty.
i do wonder why or when watches evolved from a device WORN to tell time to becoming investment pieces.
however, compared to spending on cars, watches do seem to depreciate slower...
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Well said...dpkong
Now you see why some preloved watches quoted just 30-40% less off the list price just won't do.....unless its a non productive pc
Prices of the more regular pcs that are quoted 50-70% less off list might attract some buyers.
my 2cts
dc
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Of course, buying watch is never for investment purposes. Its pretty much hobby and enjoyment. My point is comparing with car, watches should be depreciating lesser. However, this doesnt seem to be the case, especially if one factor in inflation and hefty service fees.
I always tell people that dont buy watch as buying watch is never a good 'investment'. Someone then told me PP. I told them that run of the mill PP cant retain much value either unless its grand complication such as minute repeater plus per. calender which is exclusive to PP vip. We have seemed how PP 5980 price rocketed and then burst. Let alone other brands.
My point is high end new time piece is very expensive to own and the pre owned price seem to be unable to catch up. if this is the case, eventually, all this watch collection biz and hobby may collapse one day just like what happened in 70-80 when Jap introduced cheap and reliable quartz?
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I've said it before and will do it again... go to the toilet u have nothing to read... its boring! unless you have a watch then you can just sit and admire while doing your other "bussines". If you want a good investment plan.. skip uni start your own company and live in malaysia because you can get great food for almost no money
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To the OP, I hope it won't look like I'm picking on you but stating that you're putting your hard earned money into Swiss watches and then being disappointed at their trade value at a later time does make it look like you expect them to be fairly good investments. And compared to cars, they do depreciate slower. Have you compared the resale price of a 10 year old car against a Rolex percentage wise?
If you're thinking of a Patek, one of those made to order tourbillions, perpetual calendars or minute repeaters might drop in value slower. But then, if you have the disposable income for one of those, losing money on it is the last thing on your mind.
Lastly, you shouldn't be spending 'hard-earned' money on watches as you won't be able to wear and enjoy it as it will eventually get scratched up or worse.
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The only way that people always claim that they earn money from watches, is if they already have a rare piece and the current going price for the watch is high, then of course they earn money when they sell it. However, this kind of situation is really rare. But generally buying watches for investment is not a good idea.
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To the OP, I hope it won't look like I'm picking on you but stating that you're putting your hard earned money into Swiss watches and then being disappointed at their trade value at a later time does make it look like you expect them to be fairly good investments. And compared to cars, they do depreciate slower. Have you compared the resale price of a 10 year old car against a Rolex percentage wise?
If you're thinking of a Patek, one of those made to order tourbillions, perpetual calendars or minute repeaters might drop in value slower. But then, if you have the disposable income for one of those, losing money on it is the last thing on your mind.
Lastly, you shouldn't be spending 'hard-earned' money on watches as you won't be able to wear and enjoy it as it will eventually get scratched up or worse.
+1
Well said!
But, may I add that PP MR, Tourbillon & PC Chrono will invariably appreciate in value ............ 'coz of limited production to one or two pieces per year by the ONLY THREE master craftmen in PP Geneva!
The much easily available PC may maintain or depreciate in value, pending on the model & seasonal craze. ;)
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yeah.. i think the general concensus is that watches are never good investment (generally). watch prices go up (in my opinion) due to mere coincidence and after events (eg. watch brands become ultra expensive and exclusive 80 years down the road).
I share the same sentiment in watch collecting.. it is definitely going to hurt our pockets in the short/long run (no thanks to our weak MYR), however, i guess it is the satisfaction derived from buying that holy grail and wearing it often enough to comfort ourselves that our 'investment' was worth it :P
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Hobby and business do not mix -
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somehow i find it perplexing that ppl never complain about "investing" in
a. designer clothings; jeans, handbags, wallets...etc.
b. cigarettes, tobacco
c. alcohol
d. 4D
e. car
but yet, whenever it comes to watches... the "investment" and "resale value" always comes into play.
sorry in advance but this is not picking on anyone or anything... just that I find it strange. Buy what you like and what you want, we spent too much time working slogging off our arse to pay interest to the banks. time to be selfish and treat yourself abit and not think too much about it.
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somehow i find it perplexing that ppl never complain about "investing" in
a. designer clothings; jeans, handbags, wallets...etc.
b. cigarettes, tobacco
c. alcohol
d. 4D
e. car
but yet, whenever it comes to watches... the "investment" and "resale value" always comes into play.
sorry in advance but this is not picking on anyone or anything... just that I find it strange. Buy what you like and what you want, we spent too much time working slogging off our arse to pay interest to the banks. time to be selfish and treat yourself abit and not think too much about it.
Yalor....we slug day n night to pay for mortgage, car payments, astro, water n electricity, fuel, food, kid's education, tuition, piano classes, ballet classes.... I think a watch's value retention is the least on my mind...
Guess what? Besides my 2 properties, everything i own seems to lose value pretty quickly... Cars, Gadgets and electronics specifically.
Terrence is spot on...
We dun hear ppl complaining lv bags losing value... Or any designer item for that matter...
Why watches seem to give ppl a sense of unjust when it loses it's value...
Which come to a simple question... Who got this type of mentality started?
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well alcohol its easy the get some money from... wine and whiskey has good raise in price like i bought 4 bottles of the Swedish whiskey Mackmyra...sold em with 200% profit a couple of months later.. only a few thousand bottles were made it was the first batch everyone in sweden who like whiskey wanted one... sold out the first day so i could just put em up for sale at double the price
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Like you I have plough in my hard cash for theses call swiss mechanical. Like you I also weep on the moment my friend told me how low they pay for the same watch that I have(Seamaster James Bond) thru used market. They always tease me on I should wait till it's available on the used market.
I did what they said, only to see the price of the watch tripled (PAM 249) and lose the chance to buy it.
Am I upset? You bet.
But that's life.
Through out all these years I have learn a few things.
1. The collectable market is just like the share market. For 1 gold nugget there's many lemons.
i.e. For 1 PP5970 there's many quartz Twenty4.
2. The seller will never tell you which is the nugget but gladly sell you all the lemons.
i.e. Ever try to ask for PP5970 or better yet the SS Daytona black dial at retail price? Forget about discount.
Consider yourself lucky if the price is less than 15% premium.
3. This is the best I have :) The nugget always appears to be less desirable than the lemons.
i.e. A 50s/60s Omega Constellations Pie Pan dial could be had for RM800 or less and you can go on and buy lots of them because no ones like them. Great movement (better than rolex!), Super fine dial and in gold some more. All stop until 3 years ago. The price now is about RM3k~RM4k.
Here is where I tell you that I'm not that smart. I didn't get them at ratus. Ribu is what I paid. Why? because 4~5 years ago everyone is into big watch. No one care for these little jewel (34mm~35mm). I sure didn't and when I did it was too late. Price have gone up. :(
This sort of info is not easily obtainable and have to spend time going deep into research and understand how the watch industry works. Then maybe we can land ourself a heavily discount unpopular watch but price will grow 4~5 times over the next decades.
There are people doing this for living and they are sharp, fast and financially equip. Not a easy game to win, my friend.
It sound to me you're frustrated about your watches losing value. May I ask does that makes you love them less?
That's the ultimate goal isn't it? We are into this because we love watches.
Regards
T
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Hobby and business do not mix -
These 6 words of yours sum it up so well!!!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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You lost the fun once you mix the hobby and business... If you are calculative/money minded in your hobby thn that is biz not hobby...
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You lost the fun once you mix the hobby and business... If you are calculative/money minded in your hobby thn that is biz not hobby...
......but deeeeeeeep down all of us also want a hobby that also makes money ;D ;D ;D
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Deep down also .....we also want a wife that looks like Maria Ozawa :Laughing_on_floor:
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but haven't slept with as many men as the real life Maria Ozawa. :-P
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Deep down also .....we also want a wife that looks like Maria Ozawa :Laughing_on_floor:
So, you want to (i) collect beautiful watches, (ii) the beautiful watches must increase in value beautifully, and (iii) you also want a "Maria Ozawa" beautiful wife. Your standards are truly very high. :Cheers:
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somehow i find it perplexing that ppl never complain about "investing" in
a. designer clothings; jeans, handbags, wallets...etc.
b. cigarettes, tobacco
c. alcohol
d. 4D
e. car
but yet, whenever it comes to watches... the "investment" and "resale value" always comes into play.
sorry in advance but this is not picking on anyone or anything... just that I find it strange. Buy what you like and what you want, we spent too much time working slogging off our arse to pay interest to the banks. time to be selfish and treat yourself abit and not think too much about it.
i guess mainly because this is a watch forum so posters tend to only complain about how watches end up as not very good investments. if you want to bring in clothing, cars, 4D etc, i would like to add kids into the list as i wonder how those investments are going to end up...
:Laughing_on_floor: :Laughing_on_floor:
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I was once attracted to stories how people buy watches and later make a profit when selling....but later realized that this practice is not straightforward and easy.
Many of the how-to's of making money from watches are beyond normal person like me.
I do learn one thing though.... Avoiding impulsive purchases and the willingness to look everywhere (on line sites, contacts, pm MWF members.. ;D) while hunting for THE piece can help cut losses in this hobby.
Kids? easy...my genius plan is try best to make sure they do well in life....and when they become successful, I will put on my pity face on my 60th birthday and tell them how "Daddy worked so hard but never owned a Daytona...and even if you buy Daddy a Daytona...one day it will be yours or your children.''...
so its possible kids can be a good investment... :Laughing_on_floor: :Laughing_on_floor:
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Well, I have no shadow of doubt on all your comments whatsoever. Indeed, I always highlight to new comers that if they r concerned about 'value' dont indulge in watches. For record purpose, I never buy watches as investment. My point is that, say 5 years ago, if I buy a Pam says at 16k, I know for sure that if i am sicked of it later, I could resell it easily at 12k a year later. Loss is always inevitable. But you see, the problem is the 'same pam" which worths 16k 5 years ago is going at say 21k now due to price adjustment and lower discount. Yet, if i am buying it now and dispose it a year later, yes you hear me, rm12k.
That keeps me wonder and posed this question on what you guys, watch enthusiastics think and view. Well, I couldnt care the less if U asked me few years back. Collection is collection. But in hindsight now, since watches are getting more and more expensive, I am wondering if we should just go ahead and be happy about it. Watch collection is a pretty much uncurable poison. When u have a basic Pam 104, you may want to grab and own 8 days and 10 days. When u have a TH carrera, you may set your eyes balls on say Omega Seamaster or Rollie Submariner eventually.
Well, its a bit hard to compare watches with other consumable products like handbags and cars. When we buy cars, tv, fridges etc, we use it for several years, we will get it replace and never bother about its value anymore. But i guess what i make watches more interesting especially the mechanical watch is that if you taking good care of it, it will last.
In short, i just wanna open up this healthy discussion about how you guys think about watch collection in mid to long run. Guess this poison has no cure unless u quit it eventually. But its always easier say than done and our poison just get deeper and deeper arent we? lol.
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Well, I have no shadow of doubt on all your comments whatsoever. Indeed, I always highlight to new comers that if they r concerned about 'value' dont indulge in watches. For record purpose, I never buy watches as investment. My point is that, say 5 years ago, if I buy a Pam says at 16k, I know for sure that if i am sicked of it later, I could resell it easily at 12k a year later. Loss is always inevitable. But you see, the problem is the 'same pam" which worths 16k 5 years ago is going at say 21k now due to price adjustment and lower discount. Yet, if i am buying it now and dispose it a year later, yes you hear me, rm12k.
That keeps me wonder and posed this question on what you guys, watch enthusiastics think and view. Well, I couldnt care the less if U asked me few years back. Collection is collection. But in hindsight now, since watches are getting more and more expensive, I am wondering if we should just go ahead and be happy about it. Watch collection is a pretty much uncurable poison. When u have a basic Pam 104, you may want to grab and own 8 days and 10 days. When u have a TH carrera, you may set your eyes balls on say Omega Seamaster or Rollie Submariner eventually.
Well, its a bit hard to compare watches with other consumable products like handbags and cars. When we buy cars, tv, fridges etc, we use it for several years, we will get it replace and never bother about its value anymore. But i guess what i make watches more interesting especially the mechanical watch is that if you taking good care of it, it will last.
In short, i just wanna open up this healthy discussion about how you guys think about watch collection in mid to long run. Guess this poison has no cure unless u quit it eventually. But its always easier say than done and our poison just get deeper and deeper arent we? lol.
Well ... not entirely true but I would agree with you on most situation your thought is correct. A basic unlimited always available model would do badly on the used market because people always think it's available and take their own sweet time. Unless the demand caught up price remain flat. True on most collectibles.
On your question watches getting more and more expansive. Actually what isn't? The world is on to a high inflation future with all these central bank flushing money into the system. The funny thing is all this will come to pass in a decade or less. The swiss will find out that customer stop buying their over-hype under-deliver product that they have to either step up the game or introduce lower price model. Some company will get swallow and others will go under.
In the mean time I have stop buying new model for most watch brand until the quality and price ratio return a more acceptable rate.
MAN! Do you know the current price of a 2 tone Omega Lady Constellation quartz? It's almost insane.
Regards
T
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I bought one omega lady constellation automatic 7 years ago. Lol. I know the price is absolutely insane now. Imagine I still got 2X +5% back then :)
Yeah, I absolutely agreed with your point. Yet, some people keep saying 'early buy early enjoy'. So in a way, its a catch 22 position for collectors like us. Less than 5 years and u notice that the price have gone up easily 50%, so one either caught admiring and keep thinking about the dream watch or break the bank account. Tough choice. Thats the dilemma for collector isnt it????
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if you're looking at watches as a collecting hobby like coins and stamps, then put a value on the satisfaction of owning it for the time that you have it. let's say, RM50 for every time that you pick it up to wind and admire it. RM200 for every day that you wear it.
then the losses do seem to become profits...
:Cheers:
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Well worst case scenario.. you get fired or really need cash then watches are oki.. quite easy to sell and even with a loss youve enjoyed them while you had them so worth it
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I've said it before and will do it again... go to the toilet u have nothing to read... its boring! unless you have a watch then you can just sit and admire while doing your other "bussines". If you want a good investment plan.. skip uni start your own company and live in malaysia because you can get great food for almost no money
Totally agree... Appreciating my Tudor Heritage Chrono more when doing my 'business'.. :Laughing_on_floor: :Laughing_on_floor: :Laughing_on_floor:
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-1 why one should think twice about buying pre-owned :mooning:
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buying watches rarely make money for owners ...unless you're a parallel importer/dealer when you buy many pieces regardless of whether they're popular ones or not from the source to enjoy hefty discounts + tax refunds. You've to buy both popular and not popular ones which is one of the "criteria". Then sell them to locals to profit. Deep pockets to start with and a risky business.
new watches lose money once you step out of the shop. Simple. Here's how the pre-owned dealer works> They'll take in your new watches at 20%-35% of the retail price and then mark up 20-30% as profits. The pre-owned piece will then costs only 50% of the retail price, making it attractive to buy.
Besides, you need to also factor in the servicing/overhaul of the watches and that's not cheap. my recent overhaul of PP and AP costs me S$5.5K. Typically, those better known swiss brands will cost at least S$600 to service. imagine if you own 10-20 pieces of the watches...how much will servicing cost you'll need to foot? :o
If you add up all these, there's no way the value retains.
It's just a hobby that provides intrinsic value that money cannot measure. As long as we're clear about it, we'll be happy and resale value will be the last thing in your mind.
Cheers
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buying watches rarely make money for owners ...unless you're a parallel importer/dealer when you buy many pieces regardless of whether they're popular ones or not from the source to enjoy hefty discounts + tax refunds. You've to buy both popular and not popular ones which is one of the "criteria". Then sell them to locals to profit. Deep pockets to start with and a risky business.
new watches lose money once you step out of the shop. Simple. Here's how the pre-owned dealer works> They'll take in your new watches at 20%-35% of the retail price and then mark up 20-30% as profits. The pre-owned piece will then costs only 50% of the retail price, making it attractive to buy.
Besides, you need to also factor in the servicing/overhaul of the watches and that's not cheap. my recent overhaul of PP and AP costs me S$5.5K. Typically, those better known swiss brands will cost at least S$600 to service. imagine if you own 10-20 pieces of the watches...how much will servicing cost you'll need to foot? :o
If you add up all these, there's no way the value retains.
It's just a hobby that provides intrinsic value that money cannot measure. As long as we're clear about it, we'll be happy and resale value will be the last thing in your mind.
Cheers
wow... a complicated watch? If this applied to basic movement... i think i better stay away from these brands...
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"It's just a hobby that provides intrinsic value that money cannot measure. As long as we're clear about it, we'll be happy and resale value will be the last thing in your mind" i couldnt agree more! i collect alot of stuff watches fishing gear golf clubs movies lp's... I know its stupid but aslong as i pay for the kids school the gas for the car etc,, and knows my wife spends atleast as much, I love it. and giving to charity all the time cause otherwise id feel like an a'hole... and if we dont buy watches in the end we will hafta buy crap cause none of the craftmen who actually do them will be able to their amazing work!
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Servicing is very costly indeed. A normal service with a simple chronograph is going to cost a bomb. Watch collection is very expensive hobby indeed. I went to check normal service for a gerald genta, well, above rm2k, just a retrograde with no other complication. :Startled:
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Silverstan, I think JPSP is refer to his PP 5711 & AP ROO... Have you send your PP for servicing before? What the damage?
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This argument is happening almost every year, just different subject title, but the contents more or less the same. I agreed with most the comments here, until I watched "The Pawn Shop". This fat-ass guy is making money from selling the watch, the rarest the better, but he still make $$$ selling all the other brand too.
You want to make $$$ selling the watches, be the Pawn shop boss :Laughing_on_floor:
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I've said it before and will do it again... go to the toilet u have nothing to read... its boring! unless you have a watch then you can just sit and admire while doing your other "bussines". If you want a good investment plan.. skip uni start your own company and live in malaysia because you can get great food for almost no money
I admire your bravery, Mr. Rodent. I wouldn't dare to bring my watches into the toilet. I have butter fingers, as I admire it whilst doing my other business, it may just slip through my fingers and fall into the you-know-where. Then it's investment down the toilet, literally. Moreover, all the noxious gases in the toilet are also harmful to the watch. Ammonia is very soluble in water and vapour; will stick and damage the gaskets and find its way into the watch and damage the expensive movements, literally dissolving your investment......
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Totally agreed endiku. I think the best companion for business is "ipad" and not watch ;D
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I've said it before and will do it again... go to the toilet u have nothing to read... its boring! unless you have a watch then you can just sit and admire while doing your other "bussines". If you want a good investment plan.. skip uni start your own company and live in malaysia because you can get great food for almost no money
I admire your bravery, Mr. Rodent. I wouldn't dare to bring my watches into the toilet. I have butter fingers, as I admire it whilst doing my other business, it may just slip through my fingers and fall into the you-know-where. Then it's investment down the toilet, literally. Moreover, all the noxious gases in the toilet are also harmful to the watch. Ammonia is very soluble in water and vapour; will stick and damage the gaskets and find its way into the watch and damage the expensive movements, literally dissolving your investment......
I beg the differ. Nothing beats timing the descend of your "output" before it hits the water. One of the two best way to use a chronograph. Other one is timing the duration of the "splash". :D
Investment? What investment? You mean like saving plans and unit trust? Those go down to the toilet much faster. :-\
Regards
T
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I beg the differ. Nothing beats timing the descend of your "output" before it hits the water. One of the two best way to use a chronograph. Other one is timing the duration of the "splash". :D
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If you are able to time the descend of the output before it hits the water, I guess you must be using the 1/100th sec seiko quartz stopwatch. Don't think the El Primero can even do that. Otherwise, you must have invested all your money to build the deepest toilet plunge in the world, as deep as Grand Canyon. Are you sure you can still hear the splash??? and make sure to account for the speed of the sound travelling back from the bottom??? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Timing the duration of the splash????? :o :o :o :o :o No wonder your handle reads "Godzilla"...... I salute you!! :Startled: :Startled: :Startled:
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LOL. Grand Canyon toilet bowl. That's funny.
Regards
T
I beg the differ. Nothing beats timing the descend of your "output" before it hits the water. One of the two best way to use a chronograph. Other one is timing the duration of the "splash". :D
If you are able to time the descend of the output before it hits the water, I guess you must be using the 1/100th sec seiko quartz stopwatch. Don't think the El Primero can even do that. Otherwise, you must have invested all your money to build the deepest toilet plunge in the world, as deep as Grand Canyon. Are you sure you can still hear the splash??? and make sure to account for the speed of the sound travelling back from the bottom??? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Timing the duration of the splash????? :o :o :o :o :o No wonder your handle reads "Godzilla"...... I salute you!! :Startled: :Startled: :Startled:
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Watches are not meant to be an investment vehicle anyway.
Just be happy that you still can trade in the used pieces and top up for something new.
If you come from a point of view that even with the annual increases and lesser discounts, by right your collection's value should have grown instead the other way round, then you're bound to be disappointed.
I wonder who started the point of view that watches are a good investment?
Patek? With the auction houses closing sales on million dollar watches?
Those are really rare and exceptional pieces... not all should be treated as such.
The most common question one get on forums is:
"I am buying my 1st serious watch, what's a good watch to invest?"
"I am buying a new _____ (enter any brand here), is it a good investment?"
I have no idea where this "investment" thing came about...
And it seems to be sending the wrong message.
Agreed that watch is not an investment. Some watches may fetch a good price in later years for trade in or pre-owned market but watches, IMO, should not be deemed as an investment.
Just like our cars (of course not discounting antique automobiles), we buy the car to get us from Point A to B. Why we choose so-and-so car? Because we like the colour, the design, our budget etc. Well, it is the same for watches.
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I think Watches are an investment, but in ureself.. worked hard all year, school for the kids, cars, loans, food etc etc. It's really nice to have something along all the time that is all your own. But for profit one must be kinda good at reading the future market or own a nice vintage or sold out piece.
Regarding toilet matters, so far only killed my Iphone in it(have like 5 old phones and newer phones around but cant find the loaders and dont trust the multi ones) .
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Well, i guess making profit is almost unlikely unless you have access to some very exclusive models. I do know a couple of people make their living by trading exortic watches. I guess for normal people, trying our best and do our homework by not losing too much money is probably the best that we could do.
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MYTH...... BUSTED!!!!!!!
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Thats how I feel recently. :Blue:
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For me, collecting watches is an hobby and i don really care abt value retaining. I tend to get what i liked and stick to it. If i ever lost my love for it i will try to sell it for break even or at a slight lost.
Usually 2nd hand dealer buy cheap then sell expensive but still cheaper than AD. That how the 2nd hand shop work in Aus considering the new watch price is insanely expensive.
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It's a hobby for me. I'll sell off my watches only if the price is right and because I don't wear them anymore.
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Gigi, i wont have any issue at all if i can sell my existing collection breakeven or at slight loss. Indeed, even some very hot brands and models also have to suffer very major haircut even after several years.
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Gigi, i wont have any issue at all if i can sell my existing collection breakeven or at slight loss. Indeed, even some very hot brands and models also have to suffer very major haircut even after several years.
Yup, but my Sinn and fortis is kinda hard to move in the local market. I not ready to sell someone overseas as you know many things will happend save me on shipping fee too.
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sinn and fortis are not popular locally. indeed, i see 2-3 tier watches as 'total loss' if i buy them.
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all depend on which series / model....
i bought and sold sinn u1, 2 sinn u black, sinn 142 st, sinn ezm1 bape edition.....
so general statement can be very wrong sometimes....
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I guess it depends on the "taste of the moment"
Just like the case of resale prices of GV and Pams couple of years back.
You really want a "recession proof" watch that is "quite guaranteed" to appreciate gradually as each year goes and low risk..... buy a SS Daytona Black dial IMHO
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I guess it depends on the "taste of the moment"
Just like the case of resale prices of GV and Pams couple of years back.
You really want a "recession proof" watch that is "quite guaranteed" to appreciate gradually as each year goes and low risk..... buy a SS Daytona Black dial IMHO
+1 or any of the watches from Rolex Sports collection.....
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I guess it depends on the "taste of the moment"
Just like the case of resale prices of GV and Pams couple of years back.
You really want a "recession proof" watch that is "quite guaranteed" to appreciate gradually as each year goes and low risk..... buy a SS Daytona Black dial IMHO
+1 or any of the watches from Rolex Sports collection.....
Except for explorer2
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i buy pre-owned to soften the blow.
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I guess it depends on the "taste of the moment"
Just like the case of resale prices of GV and Pams couple of years back.
You really want a "recession proof" watch that is "quite guaranteed" to appreciate gradually as each year goes and low risk..... buy a SS Daytona Black dial IMHO
+1 or any of the watches from Rolex Sports collection.....
Except for explorer2
It's time will come.
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as can be seen, prices of the 16570 are already creeping up slowly since the fad of the 216570 hasn't quite evolved.
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Guys, rollie is not as 'recession proof' as we thought. I have one too, but its special edition model, took me a couple of years until rollie decided to discontinue the model for me to 'break even'. Took my friend around 10 years to 'break even' with his explorer 2. Daytona price dropped a lot during late 2008-2009 in HK. But i guess its fair statement to say that "rollie sport model tends to lose lesser" than other watches generally. My pam, popular model, is still down 25% after 5 years.
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"dropped a lot" because it's always been selling at a premium and never at retail.
Just like if you've bought the GV when it first came out at RM40K, does not mean you've lost money and can't break even. It just mean that you've bought it at a premium with highly inflated price.
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Pre-loved rolex sports(minus exp2) will maintain their price better. If you are good in bargaining, you may get dealer price instead of pre-loved retail price. In that way, you can even make some profit selling to non-dealer when you decide to let it go.
That is why we have so many independent dealers here.... :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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I dunno where the negative feelings regarding expii's come from, but i do believe it is one of the most bang for the buck rolex... Movement is the same as in gmtii which costs more... Like hobbs... I believe it's time will come... In fact, every rolex will have it's day...
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The best way to ensure that will be value to our collection is to POISON as many people as possible about the joy of watch collecting.
Economics 101: Price is dependent of the Supply-Demand curves
Since flooding the market with more watches will have a negative impact on our investments, we should instead focus our efforts to convert more people to be watch collectors, hence increasing the demand factor and hence the value of our collection!! :Dancing_banana:
QED
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Or simply play the opposite and hope that a brand discontinues to make a specific model thus creating a forced demand then the value will increase. Similar concept with limited productions.....LOL :Laughing_on_floor:
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The best way to ensure that will be value to our collection is to POISON as many people as possible about the joy of watch collecting.
Economics 101: Price is dependent of the Supply-Demand curves
Since flooding the market with more watches will have a negative impact on our investments, we should instead focus our efforts to convert more people to be watch collectors, hence increasing the demand factor and hence the value of our collection!! :Dancing_banana:
QED
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
regardless how many view the Exp2, i have no intention to let mine go. it wears so nicely even my wife with a small wrist has hijacked it.
and to those who lose money on the SS Daytona, it's because they paid a premium above retail for it. there are even sellers trying to sell pre-owned pieces at retail prices. when i was after a Daytona, i thought long and hard. then, after much thought, i decided i'd be foolish to jump into that so i got a TT Daytona with Zenith movement at a fair price which was a lot cheaper than SS prices after an hour of haggling instead. i wanted a Daytona, not something i thought would hold value.
to me, the pleasure of wearing a watch i like far exceeds my expectations of resale value. when i buy, it's for enjoyment, not resale value. no matter which Rolex you buy, you won't lose much if you buy it pre-owned at the right price. if you're lucky and that's a BIG if, you might break even (without factoring inflation of course).
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Terence terence
I dont believe paying premium i.e. above retail price for a rollie. I got it at retail. But that will still lose value after purchase. Same for daytona during late 2008-2009. The myth about black daytona bursted that time.
Indeed, learning from my personal experience, so I opened this topic so that more people will be aware. Of course, bloggers may say that its interest, so 'losing value' is not an issue. My point is watch collection is expensive hobby. So better prepared the new comers mentally rather for them to rush in without a fair experience from third parties.
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My point is watch collection is expensive hobby. So better prepared the new comers mentally rather for them to rush in without a fair experience from third parties.
Any hobby can be expensive if we want it to be. Watch collecting does not have to be expensive and it is not. It is just perception and the want and need to be one off with the rest or keeping up with the Jones that cause it to be expensive. Buy and collect what you want and can afford and not what you think people want or expect you to have.
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My point is watch collection is expensive hobby. So better prepared the new comers mentally rather for them to rush in without a fair experience from third parties.
Any hobby can be expensive if we want it to be. Watch collecting does not have to be expensive and it is not. It is just perception and the want and need to be one off with the rest or keeping up with the Jones that cause it to be expensive. Buy and collect what you want and can afford and not what you think people want or expect you to have.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: on this statement. Everyone have their own needs and wants in their life. We are into this hobby cause we share the passion for horology not because one had 100000000 patek phillipe
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I support your cause. :thumbsup:
Here are some lessons I summarize (my op was too long) which may or may not be useful to all.
1. Just like red wine, only about 2~3% of the watches in this world can retain its value in time.
2. Time means at least 7~8 years not 2! Those watches where price can appreciate in 2 years are not something that we can buy by just walking in and ask.
3. Even somehow manage to find the rare 2% watch chances are the price has already gone up. Buying them later only will see little/no gain
4. (This is my best) These rare 2% watches most of the time are some of the ugliest or unpopular model that we never dream of owning or wearing it.
5. Am I in this for the love or the money? If money then there's better investment vehicle.
Regards
Tyler
Terence terence
I dont believe paying premium i.e. above retail price for a rollie. I got it at retail. But that will still lose value after purchase. Same for daytona during late 2008-2009. The myth about black daytona bursted that time.
Indeed, learning from my personal experience, so I opened this topic so that more people will be aware. Of course, bloggers may say that its interest, so 'losing value' is not an issue. My point is watch collection is expensive hobby. So better prepared the new comers mentally rather for them to rush in without a fair experience from third parties.
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I agree w all forumers. It is just a hobby. You wont find 'watch collecting' an item in investment or finance books.
Lets forget about those rare pieces, there are beyond the reach of 99.9% of honest living Malaysian.
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Come one guys, watch collection is definitely one of the expensive hobby which is equivalent to sound system, red wine, exotic etc.
There are heaps of hobby which are cheap or even free such as running (a basic sport shoes), badminton, football, meat ball, fish ball... Movie, web surfing, fishing...
I also know people who collect match box, used stamp, coral, key chains, book mark, magazine, old newspaper, hallo kitty, teddy bear etc.
Watch definitely cost way more than any of them. I mean we are talking about general but not exception of course. I wish watch collection is a cheap hobby too. ;D
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Come one guys, watch collection is definitely one of the expensive hobby which is equivalent to sound system, red wine, exotic etc.
There are heaps of hobby which are cheap or even free such as running (a basic sport shoes), badminton, football, meat ball, fish ball... Movie, web surfing, fishing...
I also know people who collect match box, used stamp, coral, key chains, book mark, magazine, old newspaper, hallo kitty, teddy bear etc.
Watch definitely cost way more than any of them. I mean we are talking about general but not exception of course. I wish watch collection is a cheap hobby too. ;D
then go for ICW watch, that should be cheap :Laughing_on_floor:
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You must be an economist. Only them can talk so much without real communication involve. ;D
Sorry, I was joking. Please don't get upset. :-[
I like your comment. Even though I don't understand all of it completely but all the bold, highlight and underlines makes it really canggih. 8) Like professor like tat.
And let not forget the banana. Gotta love the banana, man.
All power to you. Malaysian boleh!
Regards
Tyler
The best way to ensure that will be value to our collection is to POISON as many people as possible about the joy of watch collecting.
Economics 101: Price is dependent of the Supply-Demand curves
Since flooding the market with more watches will have a negative impact on our investments, we should instead focus our efforts to convert more people to be watch collectors, hence increasing the demand factor and hence the value of our collection!! :Dancing_banana:
QED
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You must be an economist. Only them can talk so much without real communication involve. ;D
Sorry, I was joking. Please don't get upset. :-[
I like your comment. Even though I don't understand all of it completely but all the bold, highlight and underlines makes it really canggih. 8) Like professor like tat.
And let not forget the banana. Gotta love the banana, man.
All power to you. Malaysian boleh!
Regards
Tyler
The best way to ensure that will be value to our collection is to POISON as many people as possible about the joy of watch collecting.
Economics 101: Price is dependent of the Supply-Demand curves
Since flooding the market with more watches will have a negative impact on our investments, we should instead focus our efforts to convert more people to be watch collectors, hence increasing the demand factor and hence the value of our collection!! :Dancing_banana:
QED
no worries!
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My point is watch collection is expensive hobby. So better prepared the new comers mentally rather for them to rush in without a fair experience from third parties.
Any hobby can be expensive if we want it to be. Watch collecting does not have to be expensive and it is not. It is just perception and the want and need to be one off with the rest or keeping up with the Jones that cause it to be expensive. Buy and collect what you want and can afford and not what you think people want or expect you to have.
I agreed with the comment that "Any hobby can be expensive if we want it to be."
For me, I love collecting Asian brand watches. I have Casios (used to have > 6 of them), Orient, Citizen & Seikos (currently 3 as I disposed 1 already). My Casios collection started since school days (none of them cost me > RM250), Orient + Citizen + the 3 Seikos totalling around RM1.2K only. Most of them are new, in pristine condition. So, to some, my hobby in collectiong watches is "cheap", but some may say it otherwise. For me, if I have a Submariner, a PP, a ML or an ALS or even a Panerai as my collection, I can say my hobby is an expensive one. Agree?
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In this hobby, it is so easy to be poisoned. Once "poisoned", its no longer a hobby
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In this hobby, it is so easy to be poisoned. Once "poisoned", its no longer a hobby
Hi, Meor,
You are quite right. But it is a very fine line between hobby and addiction. :-\ :-\ I guess many of us cross into and out of that fine line pretty often over the years.
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think many of us are addicts... but we still go to work every day (atleast in my case... well not today since home taking care of sick daughter but was still working) take care of our kids make sure the wife is happy more often than angry at us.... then when we can we buy something :)
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meo totally agreed with you. its pretty much addiction than hobby i will say. Once addicted, we just keep looking forward to what new edition the watch makers are coming out each year and our desires are pushing us to go all way out to acquire it. Thats more than hobby. These days, I have been telling myself and endeavour my very best to convince myself to appreciate the newly released rather than to own them. But its not easy. lol