Post by: mikelcch on January 11, 2016, 12:57:17 AM
I'm curious what's the general consensus on Panerai these days in our country. It seems that there's not as much hype as before, even on a once-glorious forum there's an admittance that the brand has suffered from multiple releases that have alienated the core fans.
There used to be a lot of hype, say 3-5 years back. Walk in to the AD and you'll probably find yourself wanting one but being put into the waiting list, and many were willing to wait. There was a lot of people wearing them. But these days there seems to be quite a few pieces in the display cases waiting for new owners.
So what's your thought in this? :Cheers:
Post by: nikfs1881 on January 11, 2016, 05:53:56 AM
And, no i don't have any PAM yet and it's not high on my next-to-purchase....i think i would rather buy iwc or JLC before owning a PAM...but that's just me...
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Post by: rahkshi007 on January 11, 2016, 06:52:15 AM
Post by: G.MAC on January 11, 2016, 07:13:10 AM
Post by: mikelcch on January 11, 2016, 08:03:45 AM
I just hope they discontinue the ETA models quickly because it makes no sense to have it competing with their in-house models. It makes me think they're milking everything they can.
Post by: gunsnroses on January 11, 2016, 10:54:22 AM
My thoughts are like this. The base Panerai models are still very much in demand, you will be hard pressed to find brand new units (000,005,112 and ETA models) at ADs. They generally sell very fast once they arrive. If you notice, the models available in the boutiques are the models with complications or in-house movements. Or Radiomir and submersible models.
I believe this is fuelled by the news that ETA is discontinuing their sale outside of Swatch group and Panerai is also discontinuing their base Luminor models with ETA movements. This has caused "panic" buying as some ppl think Panerais as "investment" pieces now. Prices of Panerais have since been going up as well, a base model 000 would sell brand new around 4-5 years back around RM12K only, now it's close to RM20k.
I believe the following is still strong due to the design of the watch, being big and rugged, yet simple and beautiful. But added to that, now you have people buying them for "investment" purposes and what nots. Panerais have also become somewhat a symbol status, I realise that the brand recognition has improved greatly over the last few years. People, at least those from Gen X and Y seem to recognise Panerai and Rolex as luxury watches on par with each other. Ask them about Zenith/JLC/IWC, very few would know.
However, I have yet to read any statements from Panerai themselves that they are discontinuing their base models. At that kind of price point, a base ETA movement in a steel case seems overprices IMHO. Which is why I have been holding back.
These are generally my thoughts and of course, subject to debate.
Post by: Devilzzz44 on January 11, 2016, 12:04:58 PM
Post by: davidtth on January 11, 2016, 01:59:36 PM
Post by: Cwlwatch on January 11, 2016, 02:54:26 PM
for me is only a nice looking watch, not a real watch maker / horological brand ...
Exactly
Post by: mikelcch on January 11, 2016, 03:12:37 PM
I have been asking the same question as well in the past few days, good to see this thread and the replies. I have also been on the lookout for Panerai models but have yet pulled the trigger.
My thoughts are like this. The base Panerai models are still very much in demand, you will be hard pressed to find brand new units (000,005,112 and ETA models) at ADs. They generally sell very fast once they arrive. If you notice, the models available in the boutiques are the models with complications or in-house movements. Or Radiomir and submersible models.
I believe this is fuelled by the news that ETA is discontinuing their sale outside of Swatch group and Panerai is also discontinuing their base Luminor models with ETA movements. This has caused "panic" buying as some ppl think Panerais as "investment" pieces now. Prices of Panerais have since been going up as well, a base model 000 would sell brand new around 4-5 years back around RM12K only, now it's close to RM20k.
I believe the following is still strong due to the design of the watch, being big and rugged, yet simple and beautiful. But added to that, now you have people buying them for "investment" purposes and what nots. Panerais have also become somewhat a symbol status, I realise that the brand recognition has improved greatly over the last few years. People, at least those from Gen X and Y seem to recognise Panerai and Rolex as luxury watches on par with each other. Ask them about Zenith/JLC/IWC, very few would know.
However, I have yet to read any statements from Panerai themselves that they are discontinuing their base models. At that kind of price point, a base ETA movement in a steel case seems overprices IMHO. Which is why I have been holding back.
These are generally my thoughts and of course, subject to debate.
Very, very good points bro. Which model are you looking to get? Honestly I think the base ETA models and a few other models ie. the PAM372 are the only ones worth getting, great references to the historic models and design. Moreover the service cost for ETA models are not too expensive and can be done by experienced independent watchmakers. No offense to those that own other models. To each their own.
On Panerai not being a real watchmaker/horological brand, is it because they only cased up Rolex/ETA movements into their watches? I think they have made the step up (of course with help from within the LVMH group) and have made some decent movements. Coupled with strong history and iconic designs, I believe they have elevated their status. Only problem is they're milking it to the max.
Post by: kygan711 on January 11, 2016, 06:10:59 PM
I am a Panerai fan. I bought a few other brands and then when I found everything was messy and cluttered, Panerai struck on me like a brick. I like simple design where less is more so this is the brand of my preference. The other second critical factor is it has got lots of strap options to play with. And the watch feels new everytime when I change a strap. Its like I am a poor man with different watch look but with the same watch everytime with different strap compared to you guys who got different watch for different occasions. My purchase and liking for this brand is purely aesthetic. No consideration for the movement that got in there cause this is a designed inclined brand anyway so it should be like that.
I have observed from many forums that I have not seen as much elsewhere where a Panerai fan could keep buying or own a few Panerai watches of different models. And a lot of them are like that. I don't seem to see as much in other brands like IWC, JLC, CORUM, GRAHAM just to name a few for simple comparison.
So I think the watch is still doing relatively well and they manage to get the same watch owner to keep buying different models from their range. Well this is just me and I am not a big time horological knowledgeable person and I am not a very technical watch guy so do discount my views if I am not aligned to you guys.
Post by: roystock on January 11, 2016, 06:11:45 PM
Post by: antoniosaprozeld on January 11, 2016, 06:11:57 PM
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Post by: davidtth on January 11, 2016, 06:14:03 PM
my only choice of pam design would be base pam like 000 005 111 112 and best 372
i do own pam before but no longer keeping any :)
Post by: mikelcch on January 11, 2016, 06:44:47 PM
Judging from the results so far it seems that the hype has died quite a bit and general feeling is that the historic base models are still maintaining their popularity.
Post by: chrisyen on January 11, 2016, 08:55:34 PM
Every brand is strong at different price segment
Pam it's already there for watch Ard rm18-30k
The design is repeating
The production is high
Hence its loosing its collectors
Imagine collector paying 30k for California dial
Then Pam issue another thousand unit with new movement
Now even regular production Hv it
But brand is not design and make for collector
With 70k+ pieces made a year
Each special edition is 1000++ units and still sold out
You must say the brand is doing well
Many new buyer wanted to get it for their first 20k+ watch
The other problem Pam is facing
They didn't control the grey since many yrs ago
Due to wrong distribution
When Msia want to get one
The retailer here don't Hv it n grey Hv it !
Like other said
I walk into mid valley weekend
I can spot more than 10 Pams on ppls wrist
It's used to be wis watch
But now a common brand general public wanted
Post by: Shiang on January 12, 2016, 06:43:16 AM
Post by: G.MAC on January 12, 2016, 07:46:36 AM
Pam is the fastest growth brand in watch history
Every brand is strong at different price segment
Pam it's already there for watch Ard rm18-30k
The design is repeating
The production is high
Hence its loosing its collectors
Imagine collector paying 30k for California dial
Then Pam issue another thousand unit with new movement
Now even regular production Hv it
But brand is not design and make for collector
With 70k+ pieces made a year
Each special edition is 1000++ units and still sold out
You must say the brand is doing well
Many new buyer wanted to get it for their first 20k+ watch
The other problem Pam is facing
They didn't control the grey since many yrs ago
Due to wrong distribution
When Msia want to get one
The retailer here don't Hv it n grey Hv it !
Like other said
I walk into mid valley weekend
I can spot more than 10 Pams on ppls wrist
It's used to be wis watch
But now a common brand general public wanted
I definitely agree with what Chris is saying here. Panerai reissuing past popular models and inserting their in-house movements certainly drives down the appeal and price of the older "grail" pieces. Still I must say Panerai's design is quite iconic with the crownguard in that shape being synonymous and associated with the brand.
Post by: rkch1975 on January 12, 2016, 01:57:05 PM
Post by: mikelcch on January 12, 2016, 04:46:02 PM
My friends have also fell out of love with their Panerai. They see me wearing mine and they're like mehh... :Laughing_on_floor:
I'm also curious to see how much longer they can milk it. And how many more variations they can do.
Post by: smackzeen on January 12, 2016, 08:01:45 PM
Post by: cychung on January 15, 2016, 07:50:46 AM
Post by: smackzeen on January 15, 2016, 08:07:00 AM
Post by: Kesharoo on January 15, 2016, 12:58:34 PM
I still have 2 PAMs presently but it is highly unlikely for me to buy them anymore. Personally they are nice watches and a great alternative to the other sports watches around. Prices were crazy at one point in time and like other posters said ADs can never get the hot watches but you can always find them at the grey market sellers for lots of money. I guess it was too much of a good thing.
Post by: mikelcch on January 15, 2016, 02:34:12 PM
Panerai is a very unique watch with interesting design and history. I was very big into PAMs and I have even visited the Florence watch shop and bought a PAM 170 OOR there. I lost a lot of respect for the management team due to the PAM 360 debacle and the PR problems after that. It left a bad taste in my mouth and I don't even go to the famous site anymore.
I still have 2 PAMs presently but it is highly unlikely for me to buy them anymore. Personally they are nice watches and a great alternative to the other sports watches around. Prices were crazy at one point in time and like other posters said ADs can never get the hot watches but you can always find them at the grey market sellers for lots of money. I guess it was too much of a good thing.
Were you in the hunt for the 360 too? I read a bit on that and it wasn't very well managed. Which are the two that you still keep? The 170 looks great!
I think there are at least 2 groups of the brand's following, mainly those that came and gone (perhaps might come back) and another that's just starting. It seems that they are more focused on getting new customers, leaving the loyalists. Hence, they've actually lost more because those that were loyal were the brand's advocates. And now a lot are gone.
Seems that the damage has been done and it'll take quite a lot to regain the trust of Paneristis...
Post by: arcsaber7 on January 15, 2016, 07:25:17 PM
Post by: Timeless on January 16, 2016, 06:12:14 PM
Post by: Kesharoo on January 18, 2016, 02:08:10 PM
Panerai is a very unique watch with interesting design and history. I was very big into PAMs and I have even visited the Florence watch shop and bought a PAM 170 OOR there. I lost a lot of respect for the management team due to the PAM 360 debacle and the PR problems after that. It left a bad taste in my mouth and I don't even go to the famous site anymore.
I still have 2 PAMs presently but it is highly unlikely for me to buy them anymore. Personally they are nice watches and a great alternative to the other sports watches around. Prices were crazy at one point in time and like other posters said ADs can never get the hot watches but you can always find them at the grey market sellers for lots of money. I guess it was too much of a good thing.
Were you in the hunt for the 360 too? I read a bit on that and it wasn't very well managed. Which are the two that you still keep? The 170 looks great!
I think there are at least 2 groups of the brand's following, mainly those that came and gone (perhaps might come back) and another that's just starting. It seems that they are more focused on getting new customers, leaving the loyalists. Hence, they've actually lost more because those that were loyal were the brand's advocates. And now a lot are gone.
Seems that the damage has been done and it'll take quite a lot to regain the trust of Paneristis...
Still have the 292 and the 170. Sold the Pam Zero ages ago. Don't ask how many straps and Pam goodies I have, some are still in the original packaging. Just to show you how gila Pam prices became, when I first got the 292, people were asking for me to part with it double what I paid for...now it is not so much in demand anymore.
I still have a soft spot for Pams but it is admiration from far for now....
Post by: UnkerHo on January 18, 2016, 02:56:49 PM
Was at the Panerai boutique at Lucerne, Switzerland. The Swiss Ah Moi was trying to sell me a 112 for CFH5,000 after discounts and tax rebates. That's RM21,914.12 according to XE.com
She said it's a good time now to buy woh.... but I think i'll slowly hunt for a used one. Hehehe..
But what I think about Panerai echos what the Swiss Ah Moi told me.... it's either you like it, or you don't like it. There's no in-between..
Post by: mikelcch on January 18, 2016, 04:02:56 PM
Post by: Timeless on January 18, 2016, 08:28:48 PM
The older models are much better. New models just announced at SIHH2016, I am not impressed.
Ya mate.. the engraved and white dial looks weird to me..
Post by: megaronnt88 on January 27, 2016, 12:30:29 PM
Post by: Copierkid on February 20, 2016, 08:02:13 PM
using rolex movement is already a history, using eta with COSC has never been accurate, using in-house movement are worse than seiko movement with tons of problem
my only choice of pam design would be base pam like 000 005 111 112 and best 372
i do own pam before but no longer keeping any :)
Totally agree ;)
Post by: Timeless on February 21, 2016, 08:24:11 AM
Hi Guys... noob here. I have a submariner, a PAM372 & PAM504. I think PAMs are a nice alternative, especially for guys with bigger arms and it has it's distinctive simple design which I like. Lately I tend to like the ceramics/composites more than the steels. That's why I'm considering putting up my 372 for sale.. but need to get to 25 posts 1st :D
Ceramic/composite are fragile material in a way, have to wear with care.. imo
Post by: hidden830726 on February 21, 2016, 09:05:03 AM
Post by: tonykpk on February 21, 2016, 01:11:57 PM
Post by: Khairul on February 25, 2016, 05:12:02 PM
Post by: Harry33 on February 26, 2016, 09:43:48 PM
Post by: WatchW on March 10, 2016, 05:03:59 PM
A consistent and timely discontinuation of models will attract a stronger collector's base for pre-owned, which in turn creates demand for the new models.
Post by: hotshothunk on March 15, 2016, 03:27:29 PM
Post by: rrk on March 16, 2016, 11:11:30 AM
But that being said, I see a lot more people wearing it these days then before and it will only get more popular over time. Specially coz their entry level models are quite affordable and nice.
Post by: Hope on March 16, 2016, 04:22:14 PM
How much does it cost for entry model?
Post by: Jedirat on March 16, 2016, 04:58:46 PM
I never owned one,but I m loving it.
How much does it cost for entry model?
Entry model: PAM000, PAM005, PAM111, PAM112 and PAM380. Range from RM17,000 to RM22,000, if I am not mistaken.
Post by: kygan711 on March 16, 2016, 07:14:15 PM
Technically the old models were 56 hours power reserve while the new ones are 8 days. The old models are still around as it got discontinued recently while the new ones are also out.
Post by: Hope on March 16, 2016, 07:59:35 PM
Post by: kygan711 on March 16, 2016, 08:54:28 PM
Post by: Hope on March 16, 2016, 09:37:01 PM
Last time I saw WING WXX online store selling PAM112 pre owned 2005 till now for RM16,800
Is it worth?
Post by: nikfs1881 on March 17, 2016, 01:51:12 AM
Where can find best offer in town?
Last time I saw WING WXX online store selling PAM112 pre owned 2005 till now for RM16,800
Is it worth?
If you really love the design, then it is worth every penny....this is a much loved base panerai... But if you prefer in house, look for other PAM model....
Since i am not a big fan of panerai, i would pay a bit more for other brands- JLC, etc
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Post by: mikelcch on March 17, 2016, 12:38:53 PM
Entry model: PAM111- PAM560, PAM112 to PAM510 and PAM380 to PAM609.
Technically the old models were 56 hours power reserve while the new ones are 8 days. The old models are still around as it got discontinued recently while the new ones are also out.
Are you sure the old models have been discontinued? I know (and hoping) they will be discontinued it but I haven't read anywhere that they have.
Post by: kygan711 on March 17, 2016, 01:13:58 PM
Post by: mikelcch on March 17, 2016, 02:22:19 PM
Do share if you come across again on the web. Thanks.
Post by: kygan711 on March 17, 2016, 02:42:40 PM
http://www.ablogtowatch.com/panerai-introduces-five-new-entry-level-luminor-8-days-watches-p-5000-movement/
http://www.thewatchology.com/panerai-luminor-8-days-the-new-entry-level-panerai/
Post by: mikelcch on March 17, 2016, 03:00:23 PM
Post by: kygan711 on March 17, 2016, 06:33:33 PM
Post by: AbbasHabshee on March 18, 2016, 12:49:51 PM
Post by: AbbasHabshee on March 18, 2016, 12:50:42 PM
Post by: Jedirat on March 18, 2016, 01:05:08 PM
Post by: myric on March 24, 2016, 10:37:36 AM
Despite, I think a WIS must have at least a base model/entry level of PAM, IMHO.
That's what I think too :)
Post by: herng0326 on March 27, 2016, 10:52:35 AM
So far I'm still happy with these.
Aiming for pam127 fiddy now.
Post by: megPrez on March 27, 2016, 03:38:04 PM
the sandwich dial simply rocks. u mate that with the pillow case design... whoa!
then u pair it with different straps every few weeks... heaven.
i've even seen some ladies wearing 44mm pams on their smallish wrists... still rocks!
Post by: megPrez on March 27, 2016, 03:40:40 PM
good luck sir.. wish u good luck securing one :thumbsup:
I've collected pam359 /Pam 634/ Pam 390.
So far I'm still happy with these.
Aiming for pam127 fiddy now.
Post by: megPrez on March 27, 2016, 03:43:40 PM
Just that i think Panerai are a lil bit overpriced :-\
Post by: ywl23n on March 28, 2016, 11:24:18 PM
Pam is the fastest growth brand in watch history
Every brand is strong at different price segment
Pam it's already there for watch Ard rm18-30k
The design is repeating
The production is high
Hence its loosing its collectors
Imagine collector paying 30k for California dial
Then Pam issue another thousand unit with new movement
Now even regular production Hv it
But brand is not design and make for collector
With 70k+ pieces made a year
Each special edition is 1000++ units and still sold out
You must say the brand is doing well
Many new buyer wanted to get it for their first 20k+ watch
The other problem Pam is facing
They didn't control the grey since many yrs ago
Due to wrong distribution
When Msia want to get one
The retailer here don't Hv it n grey Hv it !
Like other said
I walk into mid valley weekend
I can spot more than 10 Pams on ppls wrist
It's used to be wis watch
But now a common brand general public wanted
Good point there and I agree. Models coming out are similar, and with so many series, so many years, quantity is too large. They need to focus and put more effort to design, improve their movement and push up brand targeting.
If they keep issuing same models, the preowned market will collapse.
Post by: Mikey C. on March 30, 2016, 04:30:12 PM
Post by: Fearsome Puppy on April 16, 2016, 07:11:31 PM
Post by: Konghong96 on April 16, 2016, 09:02:39 PM
Post by: ZhaoYun on April 16, 2016, 10:27:37 PM
Post by: saprozeldo on April 17, 2016, 10:00:55 AM
I had a hodinkee list of watches to go for.. i followed religiously.. & that list implied that panerai is not a true watch-maker's.. in a way, despite its history with the italian army, is true coz they didnt hv their own in house movement until this decade thereabouts..
But every time i search for my watches, i'd peek at some pams.. everytime i go to the watchshop, i'd molest one or two pams..
In short, we can try hate it as much as we want, but that clean classic large dial & luminor guard does something to the insides of you..
So now, i have the realisation that it is not the case of i will not, but more the case of when will i..
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Post by: smackzeen on April 17, 2016, 10:05:56 AM
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Post by: saprozeldo on April 17, 2016, 10:59:20 AM
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Post by: lancet on April 19, 2016, 05:01:36 PM
i agree it isnt a watch for those interested in movements..
but its a nice striking contemporary brand..
i wont buy new though but thats just me.
Post by: tonykpk on April 19, 2016, 06:29:33 PM
No offence to the Panerai fans out there, but it looks too big on my wrist.
Size of Panerai ranges from 40,42,44,45,47 to 50plus MM ?
Post by: saprozeldo on April 19, 2016, 07:00:52 PM
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Post by: tonykpk on April 19, 2016, 07:38:09 PM
Odd 40s.. but largely 44mm.. & some newer ones 47mm..
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The biggest Pam is the 341 at 60 mm.
Post by: watchfreak on May 18, 2016, 05:21:59 PM
Having said, I'm still a big fan of theirs owning both 005 & 590
Post by: mikelcch on May 21, 2016, 09:00:15 AM
One observation I have seen is that PAM secondary market price seems to be going down for some models strangely, I am trying hard to understand the phenomenon from Paneristis.. Some 2015/2016 are going for prices even way cheaper than 2014
Having said, I'm still a big fan of theirs owning both 005 & 590
This is true. I've been asking around grey market dealers and they said the flooding of PAM supply into the market has caused original and secondary values to decline.
Post by: rrk on May 23, 2016, 05:24:45 PM
The new PAM due watches are gonna be great, they are exactly the type of PAM I (and a lot of people) wanted. Cant wait to see them at the ADs.
Post by: megaronnt88 on May 23, 2016, 05:37:00 PM
Post by: asimo on June 11, 2016, 06:12:41 PM
http://www.lifeofawis.com/blog/2014/9/3/the-fall-of-a-giant-officine-panerai
Post by: elado249 on June 11, 2016, 06:47:59 PM
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Post by: kygan711 on June 11, 2016, 07:20:12 PM
Post by: G.MAC on June 11, 2016, 09:03:18 PM
Having said that, I feel that now is a good time to pick up a Panerai as prices aren't as high as before.
Post by: elado249 on June 11, 2016, 09:21:44 PM
Yeap the warranty is valid provided all details can be identified on the card.Tq for the info
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Post by: Shiang on June 11, 2016, 09:57:11 PM
I am a huge Panerai fan. Over the years I have bought the PAM 90, 512 and 392. I have sold the PAM 90 and 392 for the same reasons - they look amazing but after wearing them for a few hours you can feel the weight on your wrist. For most PAM fans they like the weight and the wrist presence, but I personally prefer slim and light watches though I really like the looks of the Luminor and Radomir collections. The PAM 512 is perfect, its got the PAM looks but is smaller (42mm), lighter and thinner, all in all a very comfortable watch to wear for long periods.
The new PAM due watches are gonna be great, they are exactly the type of PAM I (and a lot of people) wanted. Cant wait to see them at the ADs.
Shoulder check on the 512 :Jumping:
Post by: asimo on June 12, 2016, 08:23:49 AM
i think modestly sized panerai with simple dial is the best... evergreen... timeless design..
suitable for dress n casual... :thumbsup:
Post by: asimo on June 12, 2016, 03:24:13 PM
panerai has boutiques in Manila , Bangkok , Singapore , chengdu , Argentina , Oman, Istanbul , Mumbai...and many outlets in China , HK & Macau .. But not in KL?
Malaysia market too small ?? Or maybe our grey importer too strong ?
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Post by: stnet on June 12, 2016, 03:34:15 PM
Wonder why there is no Panerai boutique in KL ?
panerai has boutiques in Manila , Bangkok , Singapore , chengdu , Argentina , Oman, Istanbul , Mumbai...and many outlets in China , HK & Macau .. But not in KL?
Malaysia market too small ?? Or maybe our grey importer too strong ?
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I think Malaysia market too small..
Post by: artyca on June 12, 2016, 04:55:14 PM
Post by: dannyojw on June 13, 2016, 01:32:09 PM
Post by: Cocas on October 08, 2016, 02:43:47 PM
A fashionable watch? A tool watch? A collectible watch?
Post by: silic on October 08, 2016, 08:32:45 PM
Never been much of a fan besides the original Radiomir. Think about it, what other watch company only has two main designs in their entire line-up?
Daniel Wellington? :Startled:
Post by: JJTan on October 09, 2016, 11:18:50 AM
Post by: turinbrakes on October 24, 2016, 02:05:59 PM
Post by: Watchnut888 on October 28, 2016, 08:06:59 PM
Post by: turinbrakes on November 01, 2016, 02:28:03 PM