Malaysia Watch Forum
Main Forums => General Discussion - Modern Watches => Topic started by: terrenceterrence on September 15, 2010, 02:58:21 PM
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I did not wrote this. Found this from a Rolex forum, but i find this really enlightening. Credit to the person who posted this.
Watch Manufacturer
1.Mainly own designs and manufactures all major components of every watch in-house.
Rolex
(Shock kif system, escapements hairsprings out sourced and crystals?) Update now use in some models
own in-house hairsprings and paraflex shock system and now own the crystal manufacture side but still out source mainsprings.
Glashütte Original/Union Glashütte (not sure about the crystals)
Harry Winston Fine Timepieces (with collaborators help)
Seiko. Makes everything in-house.
Urwerk. (even crystals designed all in-house)
2.Design and manufactures every movement in-house, but uses suppliers for cases, dials,crystals, etc.
A. Lange & Sohne. (big date mechanism designed by JLC)
Blancpain.
Breguet.
Citizen.
Philippe Dufour.
Girard-Perregaux.
Jaeger-LeCoultre.
F.P. Journe.
Richard Mille.
Patek Philippe. But even Patek Philippe never made their own movements till the middle 30s.And still use a modded
Lemania's Cal. 2310 as a base for some of there two register m/wind chronographs
Piaget.
Zenith.
3. Designs and manufactures most movements in-house, but also uses supplied movements mostly ETA Based and Lemania.
Audemars Piguet.
Parmigiani.
Roger Dubuis.
Vacheron Constantin. uses Lemania's Cal. 2310 as a base ebauche to some of their M/wind cronos
4.Designs and manufactures some movements in-house, but mostly uses supplied ebauches then rework movements.
Chopard.
Ulysse Nardin.
Panerai.
5.Manufactures who use supplied ébauche or base movement, but do extensive and substantial in-house modification to movement, that a unique finished movement, only to that said manufacture results.
Svend Andersen.
D. Dornblüth & Sohne.
IWC.
Paul Gerber.
Nomos.
Daniel Roth.
6. Designs and manufactures at least most movements in- house group, but uses other suppliers for cases, dials, etc.
Jacquet Droz.
Longines.
Omega.
Tissot.
Breitling.
7. Begins with supplied movements, but does additional finishing in-house or in-house-group.
Stowa/Jorg Schauer
8.Designs a few movements, receives completed movements, and assembles at least some watches in-house, but most out sourced.
Chronoswiss.
Tag Heuer.
9.Outsources all aspects of manufacturing.
All fashion brands.
10.Poljot. now produce all in-house movements,for chrono range.
The Chronograph P3133 is based on the Swiss Valjoux 7734 movement,they bought the old tooling and rights.The Val 7734 was
in production from 1969-78 less than 2 million were made.Then the
Russian Poljot firm modified the Val 7734 into the P3133
But most movements that Poljot uses are based on popular Swiss movements,plus today in some of there watches,they use full ETA movements like the 2824.
The P3133 is based on the Valjoux 7734 movement.
The P2612 is based on the AS 1475 (alarm) movement
17-18 Jewel M/W
Below are the technical data of the Valjoux 7734, and a comparison with the Poljot 3133 after the modification.
Valjoux 7734-------------- Poljot 3133
Winding. Handwind.----------- Handwind.
Jewels. 17. ============ 23.
A/h. 18000. ---------- 21600.
P/R 36 hours-------------- 42 hours.
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Thanks for posting mate,very informative
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The information is consistent with my understanding. However, after owning various in-house movement watches and standard ETA/Valjoux based watches, personally I am not particular whether a watch contains in-house or ETA or others. As an example my Valjoux 7750 based A. Silberstein is extremely accurate and so far performs better than AP, Glashutte, Blancpain, etc. Actually many of the in-house movements suck big time as well.
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so as a cheapo watch purist like me, should buy Seiko only :Laughing_on_floor:
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I can now proudly walk into the major luxury watch shop and tell em my low end seiko is more in house than watever brand selling at gadzillion ringgit. :Laughing_on_floor:
Sure the sale man inside there will like :o
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This is what I knew about, it's not secret
but these brand jus know how to guide u to focus into what they good at
if these top brand chose that supplier for yrs and still using it now mean those supplier supplied them gd stuff
so whether is in house or out source or oem... I dun care
especially movement, the base movement using eta is
common and safest way for watch company!
Simply because it is proven it's reliability for yrs!
It is not cost effective to design a new movement...
No brand can test it's movement for ten yrs then only they manufacture it
so we all know most manufacture movements released in the past few yrs are having problems!
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So where is the part about "myths"?
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Thanks Terrence, good post :thumbsup:
In-house doesn't mean better. Not to mention one need to a premium (most of it) to own a piece and high maintence cost.
ETA/Lemania have proven their reliability through this years.
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Thanks Terrence, good post :thumbsup:
In-house doesn't mean better. Not to mention one need to a premium (most of it) to own a piece and high maintence cost.
ETA/Lemania have proven their reliability through this years.
Hmm wat about those in house movement tat around for sometime like Lolex or zenith el-primero series?
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So where is the part about "myths"?
easy..when a manufacturer come out with their new movement ..ask the Sales guy just "how much" of it is in house? case in Tag Huer
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So where is the part about "myths"?
The myths is "Seiko is an alcheapo manufacture" Truth is Seiko is a world class full in-house manufacture! ;D
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Thanks Terrence, good post :thumbsup:
In-house doesn't mean better. Not to mention one need to a premium (most of it) to own a piece and high maintence cost.
ETA/Lemania have proven their reliability through this years.
Hmm wat about those in house movement tat around for sometime like Lolex or zenith el-primero series?
Those are proven too but service cost is higher than ETA if you bring back to manufacturer.
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it would be interesting now..to see how things would turn out to be once swatch stops supplying ebauches to everyone.
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I think out of the brands i know i would only consider Seiko a true and true manufacturer.
They even produce their own grade of oil used in the movt!
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it would be interesting now..to see how things would turn out to be once swatch stops supplying ebauches to everyone.
Sellita ;D
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I think out of the brands i know i would only consider Seiko a true and true manufacturer.
They even produce their own grade of oil used in the movt!
What about other jap watch company like Citizen or Orient (ya i know they are own by Seiko) are they consider TRUE in house manufacture?
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I think out of the brands i know i would only consider Seiko a true and true manufacturer.
They even produce their own grade of oil used in the movt!
i think it boils down to economies of scale. seiko and rolex produces millions of watches a year between themselves. they are their own largest customers... might as well control their own supply chain
the rest of the manufacturers are now held ransom by swatch....
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But would all these change once Swatch Group stops supplying ETA movements to other brands not owned by Swatch?
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swatch only would stop supplying ebauches
they would still supply movements to everyone...
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Tat y Tag H. quickly bought a working design from Seiko. :)
I think out of the brands i know i would only consider Seiko a true and true manufacturer.
They even produce their own grade of oil used in the movt!
i think it boils down to economies of scale. seiko and rolex produces millions of watches a year between themselves. they are their own largest customers... might as well control their own supply chain
the rest of the manufacturers are now held ransom by swatch....
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swatch only would stop supplying ebauches
they would still supply movements to everyone...
We will have to wait and see what the new management at Swatch decides. Before Mr. Hayek passed on, he did indicate that ETA will stop supplying ebauches and movements to everyone save those who do manufacture some of their own movements.
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When Damasko put an inhouse movement into their DA46 model and rename it DK10 they increase the
list price from euro 1099 to euro 2990. Is a watch movement worth that much ? Got this info. from
their official website.
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If I not mistaken the late Mr Hayek make the announcement in 2005 because of no new innovation from most Swiss brand (supplied by ETA). Of course they will do it step by step....if not, some brand might be vanish/close or whatever... :-\. They still can use ETA but thats full movement made by ETA with ETA logo on the rotor. No more ebauches like before. Some say, buying a full complete movement from ETA will also increase the price than the ebauches & assemble by them self.... I think this might be true also. Maybe when ETA start to stop supplying ebauches 100%, then maybe we can see a dramatic changes if the brand still not taking any action by this matter. Maybe some will take other route or alternative. Who knows... ::)
A few brand already take action after late Mr Hayek announced it. :thumbsup: I take Panerai for example. Since 2006 Panerai started making their in-house movement. Of course R&D need a huge amount of money & need to take many years to perfect their movement. So the price for the new PAM also increase. :'( Almost double the price than the ETA they are using before (these goes to other brand else well). Some got problem with the new movement. Need to take more years to produce a perfect movement. But their movement innovation (a new movement every year) is superb! :thumbsup:
As for Japanese, really respect them. They can produce a good, reliability in-house movement & sell it with a very affordable price. Almost most horology innovation/milestone..... quartz (so many development), digital, mechanical & many other thing, Seiko are there. So why shame wearing a Seiko? :laugh: Not to offend anybody ok.... just my 2 cent ;) Do correct me if I'm wrong... 8)
Maybe a few more years we can see a new development from many Swiss brand & I hope can sell it with a more affordable price. :angel:
:Cheers:
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When Damasko put an inhouse movement into their DA46 model and rename it DK10 they increase the
list price from euro 1099 to euro 2990. Is a watch movement worth that much ? Got this info. from
their official website.
Yes. You can say the movement is the heart and soul of the watch.
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For me that too much for the watch. :P With that kind of price can get other brand which offered better. :HammerHead:
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A few brand already take action after late Mr Hayek announced it. :thumbsup: I take Panerai for example. Since 2006 Panerai started making their in-house movement. Of course R&D need a huge amount of money & need to take many years to perfect their movement. So the price for the new PAM also increase. :'( Almost double the price than the ETA they are using before (these goes to other brand else well). Some got problem with the new movement. Need to take more years to produce a perfect movement. But their movement innovation (a new movement every year) is superb! :thumbsup:
As for Japanese, really respect them. They can produce a good, reliability in-house movement & sell it with a very affordable price. Almost most horology innovation/milestone..... quartz (so many development), digital, mechanical & many other thing, Seiko are there. So why shame wearing a Seiko? :laugh: Not to offend anybody ok.... just my 2 cent ;) Do correct me if I'm wrong... 8)
With regards to Panerai, even the models with the ETA/ Unitas 64xx movement has gone up, double what I paid for my first Panerai. As for the problems with the movement, I believe it is blown out of proportion. Other brands had problems with their movement but nothing much said about it. Perhaps Panerai is a victim of their own popularity. Sadly it is still my favourite brand.
As for Seiko, no shame in wearing Seikos. It is one unique brand that can offer watches in all price range, even those way up there. The movements that Seiko makes are pretty robust and reliable. Anyway, even Tag is using a Seiko based movement in one of their watches.
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What about other jap watch company like Citizen or Orient (ya i know they are own by Seiko) are they consider TRUE in house manufacture?
seiko owned orient but never own citizen!
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Panerai is one of my fav brand too. Never own one but handle one before.....no wonder why many love it. I love it too :-*.
:HammerHead: about the price.... :-\ I can't afford one.... :'(
From what I know, even though Orient is under Seiko.... both of them produce their watch including movement differently. :thumbsup:
:Cheers:
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it takes time. slowly but surely if u set ur target... u will get ur hands on the PAM 1 day :)
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Thanks bro. :thumbsup: :Cheers:
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Very informative article and very correct.
ETA or ETA-based movements are the movement of choice of many swiss brands and this is basically the reason why I hv my own personal limit on how much I would pay for a watch. Above a certain level of pricing, IMO you are paying a hefty premium for the brand and the so called social status that comes with wearing that brand,,,notwithstanding the fact that the engine could be the same. And branding is something the Swiss is very good at. Why else are swiss chocolates famous when the country does not even grow cocoa?An old and wise WIS friend asked me this question-" if you knew a Proton and a Merc/BMW having the same engine...would you pay such a premium for the Merc/BMW?"
I suppose as in any item, a watch is very personal and one's choice is driven by many factors which differ from person to person.As for me, I buy watches because I appreciate horology. I also buy what appeals to me for personal wear and not for investment purposes. Mayb thats why IMHO some of the brands are overpriced.
But as I said this is my personal opinion. No offence meant or intended.
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Correct bro. :thumbsup:
Some brand are sell high because of the brand itself. If the watch using an ETA2824-2 but sell for RM5k, I'll not buy it. Feel too expensive for me just for the movement itself. I'm not saying the 2824 is not good, but because of the watch I'm using now using the same movement but sell at 2 times less. Now I'm really cautious if I want to buy a watch more than RM3k. I'm just a middle income guy, so need to be much care when paying a high premium watch. I just want to feel worth for what I'm paying for. Thats me la... ;)
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Personally,I am not much into what movement..blah blah..Tried and tested ETAs and Rolex,1861s, will be reliable for decades.New in house ones like ML etc,might not be that reliable.Worst if it acts up after the warranty period
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Personally,I am not much into what movement..blah blah..Tried and tested ETAs and Rolex,1861s, will be reliable for decades.New in house ones like ML etc,might not be that reliable.Worst if it acts up after the warranty period
Agreed bro-I think all of us look at the overall aspects and not just the engine. My point was that you do have a brand lower down the price point ( say Tissot or Mido ) having the same movement or base movement with some other brand higher up the price point ( be it part of Swatch group or independent brands). So basically ( assuming no difference in materials,etc) you are paying a premium for the brand. Celebrity endorsers like Clooney, Nicole Kidman or Tiger Wood don't come free either..
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Yes. Thats what I mean too. Hehe...
Apart from that of course the price will gone up due to what material it used, finishing, man hours & etc.... + here + that = price is much higher. But thats ok to me as long I pay for what it should to 8)..... & not paying high due to the celebrity, advertisement, just for the brand or whatever. Comparison is apple to apple la. Not like Tissot vs Rolex.... of course both are different league.
:Cheers:
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What I understand there are couple of grades (better tuning and material) and finishing (handiwork) of 2824, 2892 and 7750. You may say finishing doesn't add value to the watch (sometimes it does) mechanically but it makes the watch aesthetically more appealing like PAM. Base PAM used ETA 6794 and costs twice as much as Tissot with the same calibre.
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If everthing same n movement same then u can compare on price
But what if watches like sinn, bremont n damasko who offering a hardened steel?
Or watches like ball who offering best case n bracelet finished n brightest h3 gas tube, higher shock resistant?
R u alll willing to pay more for the above watched since all used eta 2824 / 2836 is in it?
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Also different grades of ETA used, basic, chronometer grade, etc. Level of finish, modifications to the basic movement like IWC on the Mk. XVI.
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swiss made watch is the best not one of, nothing japs n others craftsmanship can compare
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swiss made watch is the best not one of, nothing japs n others craftsmanship can compare
Time for a reality check bro...
Check out some high end Grand Seiko and Credor movements then you will see what the japs have achieved...
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swiss made watch is the best not one of, nothing japs n others craftsmanship can compare
swiss the best? ???
btw.. i must say atleast you put in more effort by typing a few more extra words than some other previous members by going through the threads before putting up something for sale.
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swiss made watch is the best not one of, nothing japs n others craftsmanship can compare
swiss the best? ???
btw.. i must say atleast you put in more effort by typing a few more extra words than some other previous members by going through the threads before putting up something for sale.
He doesnt care about the first 25 post janji he can put up fs thread and dissapeared later on see his all previous post also i wanna lol at his super short reply :Laughing_on_floor: :HammerHead:
Btw, for the "swiss the best" statement please educate yourself more before throwing in such comment. Shows that you were either brainwashed by marketing folks or you are just plan ignorant or one of those ppl who care abt brand name on the dials... hmmmm
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Yes, Swiss movements are great, but I think some high recognition needs to be given to the Japanese movements. Not only the 9S movements in the Grand Seikos, but also the much more affordable 6R15 movement you'll find in the SARB range, the Sumos and the Alpinist. My 6R15 Seiko alpinist (which I got by trading away my troublesome ETA powered Sinn 356) runs consistently at +3sec-6sec per day for the past 3-4 years with a power reserve exceeding 50 hours. And don't forget the German movements too. My Glashutte Original Navigator with the GUB 100 movement has a daily variance of +/- 1sec since I got it in 2009. :thumbsup:
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The Swiss is good but I would not say that they are the best. The Germans and Japanese will agree to disagree. There are some Chinese movement that can beat the Swiss hands down.
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bro, let me know if u ever want to let your GO Navigator go…... :Praying:
Yes, Swiss movements are great, but I think some high recognition needs to be given to the Japanese movements. Not only the 9S movements in the Grand Seikos, but also the much more affordable 6R15 movement you'll find in the SARB range, the Sumos and the Alpinist. My 6R15 Seiko alpinist (which I got by trading away my troublesome ETA powered Sinn 356) runs consistently at +3sec-6sec per day for the past 3-4 years with a power reserve exceeding 50 hours. And don't forget the German movements too. My Glashutte Original Navigator with the GUB 100 movement has a daily variance of +/- 1sec since I got it in 2009. :thumbsup:
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bro, let me know if u ever want to let your GO Navigator go…... :Praying:
Ahhhhh.....I see someone also likes to dream being Luftwaffe playboy fighter ace Adolf Galland :police: or that Erich Hartmann :police:, but I think they probably wore the Hanhart one-button chronograph watch and not the Navigators (which were worn by bomber crews). We can still buy Hanhart watches but I think (I could be wrong) they are now fitted with the ETA / Valjoux 7750 movements. Not sure if the old one-button chronograph movement is still being produced. Great horological history here..... :thumbsup:
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woahhh...another fascist... :Laughing_on_floor:
In my schooldays, used to build models of almost every major WWII German warship, plane, tank.
I tot they were the greatest underdogs but led by a unstable madman who screwed up their top generals (e.g. Guderian, Rommel,Doenitz )
Totally respected their top aces...Americans/Brits no where close... >300 aerial kills for Hartmann alone altho mainly on Eastern front with Russkies
bro, let me know if u ever want to let your GO Navigator go…... :Praying:
Ahhhhh.....I see someone also likes to dream being Luftwaffe playboy fighter ace Adolf Galland :police: or that Erich Hartmann :police:, but I think they probably wore the Hanhart one-button chronograph watch and not the Navigators (which were worn by bomber crews). We can still buy Hanhart watches but I think (I could be wrong) they are now fitted with the ETA / Valjoux 7750 movements. Not sure if the old one-button chronograph movement is still being produced. Great horological history here..... :thumbsup:
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In my schooldays, used to build models of almost every major WWII German warship, plane, tank.
Then you should probably love to find a nice WWII vintage German wristwatch with the famed AS1130 movement (Wehrmachtswerk). I have seen a couple of these wartime watches on sale a few years ago by this military watch collector based in Seoul Korea. Cool time pieces, but definitely need lots of repair. I managed to find one when I was in Amsterdam in 2007. It was a Kriegsmarine (KM-German navy) issued watch with the AS1130 movement signed Siegerin. This one (with the letters KM on the dial) is probbaly less common than those issued for the German Army (with DH letters on the caseback). Unfortunately, the crystal was really busted and the movement kept stopping even after a few repairs.