Malaysia Watch Forum
Main Forums => General Discussion - Modern Watches => Topic started by: mnazri.tan on July 26, 2010, 01:59:47 PM
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For weeks i have been pondering on this issue, numerous discussions on that and finally I like to have that discussion here. I am not sure whether this has been posted or not, too many topic to look through in this forum...
Million dollar question. Homages watches. Acceptable or not.
Accusation
Homage watches, despite its clever interpretation of what they are doing, in the root share similar principality as stealing. I doubt any of the homage watch maker pay royalty for the design they copied. Under the pretext, we brand this watch as our own, they get away and being accepted as an original watch where else their cousin, the replica watch take the heat and being label as pure fake and unacceptable. However due to supply and demand, needless to say the industry for both is quite a big one.
Now, i understand the feeling of those who purchase the original watches. Look at as example the rolex submariner owner and the Panerai watches. Two homage one under well known brand Invicta, replicating the rolex submariner and one private small label known as Marina Militare. The idea for those who purchase the original piece is to pay a huge amount of money to enjoy high quality products with a level of exclusivity. They work hard in life to earn it, but being let down seeing their manager who they pay a small amount of money to work with them, wearing an identical watch, at least physically.
That is pain. Even for me who own several homage (which is why now I am judging the morality aspect of owning a homage). Bottom line, an infringement of IP is an infringement of IP. People get away with it with clever definition but are we as user enabling this well organized "crime" in way where we see it as acceptable. How about the billion dollar losses of the original watch maker?
Defenses
a) Once expired, manufacturer has no right to disallowed others replicating their invention
b) The original piece mostly are simply ridiculously expensive. The user of homage watches consist of those who love watches, appreciate the art of watch making but couldn't afford to get the original one in even in gazzilion years of lifetime. Is it fair to deny their enjoyment in owning a homage watch. ?
c) The homage never claim what they dont. The homage watches clearly specify the specification of the watch and the brand of it. They dont pretend
d) The billion dollar losses claimed is not real. It is base on the potential that the owner of homage watches, without the homage watchmaker would spend money on the real manufacturer. But it may not be. They buy the homage because they cant afford the real one. If there is no homage watches, they still cant afford it. True, there is some rich people who can afford to buy the original, but if they in the first place being calculative and decide to buy homage, even without homage they would still be calculative asshole and will not buy from real manufacturer. So there is no real losses.
e) It is not matter of between paying 100 dollar or 200 dollar, often it is between paying a 100 dollar or 20,000 dollar. The math is simple
f) A replica mostly in a poor quality, but not entirely true for homage. Often homage watches in a very good quality, though may not be agreed by some, there has been argument for example the Invicta 9937 match the quality of rolex submariner it replicating. I am sure a lot will either agree or disagree. I dont own any of both, so i cant be sure. But I am sure i have read some very satisfied review on the 9937 even when comparing with Rolex. Base on that review, often they question the justification of buying a Rolex. Simply on the brand ?
Summary
I can not summarize this, part of me feel that it is right to get a homage, part of me feel it is a terrible crime and I am enabling it.What make it worst the law enabling it, the society enabling it. So how do we draw the line ? Would it be acceptable to homage ?
Looking forward to views from all of you .
mnazri.tan
http://zhenendeavor.blogspot.com/
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I don't have this dilemma ... I never subscribe to buying replica nor homage watches. If I want one, it better be the original. Otherwise, I would rather not having it. At the same time, I would not be bothered if others are having replica or homage watches are substantially cheaper price because regardless of how close they are, they are still not the real thing.
I used to think that one way to prevent this is to buy less popular watches (than Rolex, Omega, etc.). Little did I know that there are tons of replica watches for Blancpain, AP, Alain Silberstein and Glashutte too! :mooning:
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good topic for me to learn more.
Excuse my ignorance, but are dial designs patented? (font of markers, shape of hands, colour combination, etc). `Technical' stuffs (lume in a Ball, etc) probably yes but design related matters?
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i explain this before and i stand for it
homage should not have commercial element!
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Agreed, for me there should not be any logo or brand name on it. Thats how i feel.
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Bruder,
Why so stressful?? ;D
Collecting watches should be enjoyable and shouldn't be so stressful. :Dancing_banana:
Buy what appeals to you, what has meaning to you, what makes you smile when the watch is on your wrist and don't think too much.
Borrowing the words of Bobby Bolivia, "A man don't pick the watch. Mmm-mm. Watches pick the man. It's a mystical bond between man and watch." ;D
I for one don't care much if it's a swiss movt or a japanese movt or a chinese movt or a uganda movement or a sapphire crystal or a mineral or a auto or a quartz or a what what. Why make it so complicated? And I certainly don't care if people agree on my choice or not. If the watch appeals to me and I don't have to sell one of my kids to get it, then.... KACHING!
In a way maybe that's not good as I've developed Compulsive Watch Buying Disorder and have added 6 watches to my collection this month alone and I'm fast approaching 60 in total with a few more incoming (again, my last ones for the year). :angel: But I certainly do enjoy it. :laugh:
The point is it should be enjoyable and shouldn't be so complicated in owning a watch. Homage or not. :P Frankly speaking perhaps it's just us Asians who have this inferior complex in owning a homage? On foreign forums, I see quite a number of Pam owners with a Davidsen, JOA, RXW or other MM homage in their collection and are proud to post it up.
Personally I don't have a problem with homage as long as the wearer don't try to pass it off as what it's not. That's fake. If you can't afford a PAM, don't find it necessary to buy a fake with the PAM logo and wear it as a genuine PAM. :HammerHead: Get a homage and wear it as a homage.
I don't have a problem with people who wear a Orient Sub, a Invicta Sub, a Dievas Vintage or a Astroavia Pilot on their wrist but I do have a problem with people who wear a fake Rolex and try to pass it off as a genuine one. That's where I draw the line.
On your point about a homage's quality as compared to a Rolex or a PAM, I have to point out that personally to me it's not just about quality. It's also about brand history, heritage and status. Some might claim that an Invicta is the same quality as a Rolex (btw, I disagree) but an Invicta does not have the same history, heritage and status of a Rolex. And that's why I would pay more for a Rolex or a PAM over a homage.
Now if one can't afford to pay 5 figures for a PAM, get a homage but please for the love of watchmakers, don't get a 2K fake and try to pass it off as a 5 figure PAM. :P
Cheers mate and continue to enjoy collecting watches. :Cheers:
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good topic for me to learn more.
Excuse my ignorance, but are dial designs patented? (font of markers, shape of hands, colour combination, etc). `Technical' stuffs (lume in a Ball, etc) probably yes but design related matters?
dial designs are protected under a sub-limb of copyright known as design right..as long as it has aesthetic value( it is visually appealing) it can be protected. a 'homage' is a tribute or a sign of respect to the original. by making it for commercial purposes this defeats the whole purpose of respect towards the original doesnt it?
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Adrian - well said.
" I do have a problem with people who wear a fake Rolex and try to pass it off as a genuine one."
I like the above line best. 100% agreed.
dc
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good topic for me to learn more.
Excuse my ignorance, but are dial designs patented? (font of markers, shape of hands, colour combination, etc). `Technical' stuffs (lume in a Ball, etc) probably yes but design related matters?
dial designs are protected under a sub-limb of copyright known as design right..as long as it has aesthetic value( it is visually appealing) it can be protected. a 'homage' is a tribute or a sign of respect to the original. by making it for commercial purposes this defeats the whole purpose of respect towards the original doesnt it?
thanks buddy for the explanation. coming from RD world which focus on quantification and technical issues, its interesting to know dial design can be given copy right
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What is "RD"?
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do those company allowed these company to steal the original design from them??
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eventho i dont hav homage, but i did hav a replica many years ago b4 i really appreciate what is art & techs in d watch therefore i was shy n pai-se to tell people tat its a fake tat im wearing but it did propels me 2 own d real thing which i did and all in my lines now r all genuine.
put it this way, if ur mind n heart can bare wif it and willingly 2 lie 2 others while wearing it, SO BE IT... no offence but tat lying n denying yourself
hope i did not offended any1 :Cheers:
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The point is it should be enjoyable and shouldn't be so complicated in owning a watch. Homage or not.
Personally I don't have a problem with homage as long as the wearer don't try to pass it off as what it's not.
I don't have a problem with people who wear a Orient Sub, a Invicta Sub, a Dievas Vintage or a Astroavia Pilot on their wrist but I do have a problem with people who wear a fake Rolex and try to pass it off as a genuine one. That's where I draw the line.
Now if one can't afford to pay 5 figures for a PAM, get a homage but please for the love of watchmakers, don't get a 2K fake and try to pass it off as a 5 figure PAM. :P
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Well said. Anyway, what defines a "homage"?. If we take the Rolex sub as the one and only original-then what about the other legitimate brands that makes diver watches with Rolex sub like features? This includes Omega/Orient etc...
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Interesting discussion on homage watches. I think there is a need to define homage. I take homage as a watch produced to allow people to enjoy what is perhaps impossible to get at the present, because the watch is no longer in production or very expensive to get. Most important is that it does not pass off as an original.
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adrian... :thumbsup: Well said.
Me too bro. I don't have problem about homage watch. I'm also don't have problem towards the people who buy a fake. But just like you said... don't try to make people assume that is a genuine watch. Some people doing it & hoping others will salute with the 5 figure watch on their hand :Mad: & not truthful in their talk & they will get angry so easily when get distracted or offended about their watch. Got some experience before with this kind of people. Haha... :laugh:
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IMHO homage watches are fine but fakes are not.
All of us are in this forum bcos we of our common hobby ( or obsession as better half calls it ;D ) . For personal reasons be it affordability/cost to value perception/personal taste, some of us buy so called "homages". Some buy "originals".
So what? Thats a personal matter and you buy what appeals to u...What we have in common is our appreciation of the small ticking machine on our wrists. Lets focus n remember that!!
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Agree with kltime. Homage or originals as long as u like it then buy lor. In fact I hav one getat. I am pretty happy with it and I deliberately customize it so that it doesn't clashes with the original. Definitely not replica. Replica is stealing. It's a crime.
Just my 3 cents.
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well said....homage or fake is not the point...the main point is NOT 2 try 2 pass the watch off as something it is not....fake is fake, homage is homage...once u try 2 deceive others with ur RM2k ROLEKS, that is crossing the line ord....
Bruder,
Why so stressful?? ;D
Collecting watches should be enjoyable and shouldn't be so stressful. :Dancing_banana:
Buy what appeals to you, what has meaning to you, what makes you smile when the watch is on your wrist and don't think too much.
Borrowing the words of Bobby Bolivia, "A man don't pick the watch. Mmm-mm. Watches pick the man. It's a mystical bond between man and watch." ;D
I for one don't care much if it's a swiss movt or a japanese movt or a chinese movt or a uganda movement or a sapphire crystal or a mineral or a auto or a quartz or a what what. Why make it so complicated? And I certainly don't care if people agree on my choice or not. If the watch appeals to me and I don't have to sell one of my kids to get it, then.... KACHING!
In a way maybe that's not good as I've developed Compulsive Watch Buying Disorder and have added 6 watches to my collection this month alone and I'm fast approaching 60 in total with a few more incoming (again, my last ones for the year). :angel: But I certainly do enjoy it. :laugh:
The point is it should be enjoyable and shouldn't be so complicated in owning a watch. Homage or not. :P Frankly speaking perhaps it's just us Asians who have this inferior complex in owning a homage? On foreign forums, I see quite a number of Pam owners with a Davidsen, JOA, RXW or other MM homage in their collection and are proud to post it up.
Personally I don't have a problem with homage as long as the wearer don't try to pass it off as what it's not. That's fake. If you can't afford a PAM, don't find it necessary to buy a fake with the PAM logo and wear it as a genuine PAM. :HammerHead: Get a homage and wear it as a homage.
I don't have a problem with people who wear a Orient Sub, a Invicta Sub, a Dievas Vintage or a Astroavia Pilot on their wrist but I do have a problem with people who wear a fake Rolex and try to pass it off as a genuine one. That's where I draw the line.
On your point about a homage's quality as compared to a Rolex or a PAM, I have to point out that personally to me it's not just about quality. It's also about brand history, heritage and status. Some might claim that an Invicta is the same quality as a Rolex (btw, I disagree) but an Invicta does not have the same history, heritage and status of a Rolex. And that's why I would pay more for a Rolex or a PAM over a homage.
Now if one can't afford to pay 5 figures for a PAM, get a homage but please for the love of watchmakers, don't get a 2K fake and try to pass it off as a 5 figure PAM. :P
Cheers mate and continue to enjoy collecting watches. :Cheers:
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Long, varied and healthy discussions.
For me, as long as the do not use other people's brand and pass them off as genuine, it is ok for me. After all, we know upfront that it is a homage.
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Personally I got no issue bout who likes to buy homage n who against homage...
To me the spirit of homage is paying tribute n appreciate some kind of design
so no commercial value should b in it...
those are My personal view, How about legal point of view?
Some 1 hv a ip/design patent right n u said u wanna homage then u copy?
U all can choose not to obey the law
but pls do not bring trouble to Mwf!
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Personally I got no issue bout who likes to buy homage n who against homage...
To me the spirit of homage is paying tribute n appreciate some kind of design
so no commercial value should b in it...
those are My personal view, How about legal point of view?
Some 1 hv a ip/design patent right n u said u wanna homage then u copy?
U all can choose not to obey the law
but pls do not bring trouble to Mwf!
Sorry but I don't quite get u on the no commercial value part. What u're saying is that its ok to build a homage for keeps but not if it's made for sale?
No worries on the trouble part. Discussion is ok (reviews, posting photos, etc) but not selling. The normal route for lawsuits regarding websites is to give notice first to the domain owner for removal of content.
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Sorry but I don't quite get u on the no commercial value part. What u're saying is that its ok to build a homage for keeps but not if it's made for sale?
No worries on the trouble part. Discussion is ok (reviews, posting photos, etc) but not selling. The normal route for lawsuits regarding websites is to give notice first to the domain owner for removal of content.
yes.
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the whole legal issue about homages is where a seller is trying to reap profit from something which does not belong to them. An IP right is a proprietary right. Breaching it is analogous to an outsider doing business in your shop without paying rent and acting like the shop is his. By paying royalty to the original manufacturer it is like paying rent to you. the whole issue is that the original manufacturer comes out with the particular idea that is so appealing to the consumer so much so that they should be well commensurated for their efforts. can you imagine a submariner? that classic look is what that is protected. when you look at a sub you will know it is a sub and not other brands or models. thats why homages and replicas face a lot of fire. it is because it is not the original but it tries to make you think it is the original. brands dont matter so much because from 5-10 metres away, people cannot see the brand' marina militare' or panerai. the first impression is that it is a panerai. that is just my opinion and say on the matter at hand.
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Sorry to slightly divert...was reading the Invicta topic in one of the other threads. Since so many of their watches are apparently homages,just wondering whether they are being sued by some of the big brands?
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homage watches are for those who just love the outer look of the watch and dont
really care about the movement, history, innovation, or originality.
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Guys, thank you for all your reply. I was hoping that some one would put some attention on this topic.
Unfortunately I am unable to reply to all comment immediately, as i was away for two days. Went back to kampung, my father in law had high blood pressure attack....but now all is good. He recovered well and I am back
The truth is, it is not i have problem buying a homage. But clearly there has been divided sentiment over the subject. Partly it feels right and partly it feels wrong in so many level. To allow homage get away with view "no commercial value" does not really justify. To own one, you must buying it from someone who make it (unless you make it yourself) and clearly that is already a commercial value. There is transaction involve.
When ever i bought a homage, i make it clear to those who ask that this is homage. A few years back, when i dont know much about watches and thought replica is ok, i also make it clear to people who asked that this is replica.But back to quote from GMAC88
" because from 5-10 metres away, people cannot see the brand' marina militare' or panerai. the first impression is that it is a panerai. that is just my opinion and say on the matter at hand."
how am i suppose to announce it loudly.Truth to be told clearly there will always be misleading event...
I am not against homage, neither advising anyone to get it.Choices is in our own hand.
I hope this topic could be reference especially for newbies to understand what is homage, and what they are dealing with. A conscious decision is much better.
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I agree with you that choice is in our own hands.
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homage watches are for those who just love the outer look of the watch and dont
really care about the movement, history, innovation, or originality.
I do not agree with your statement!
If you really want a homage watch, you must know the history of the watch n how it was design n bla bla bla... WithOut that respect how can you say HOMAGE? A real homage must be close to it's original design, history...
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Chris...to me la...my personal view.
The homage lover are those who really appreciate watch making, but needless to say the cant afford the real one. They truly understand the watch that being homage, and love it to the bottom of their heart.
The replica / fake lover are those who like the design of watches, and some of them are also pretentious. Like to pretend they can afford something they cant. Because, if you only love the outer design of the watch, it is better to get the replica as it look almost 100% real to what you like....you don't need the far more expensive homage if you only love the outer design...
For me, I do own several homage and i pay extra to ensure i get good movement, and good materials. I love watches, and i love the movement. I know I am staring at asian unitas, but that is what i do...i love looking the way the movement work, and always pray soon enough i could afford the real one....some people come to and label me as fake, it hurts however i also look it this way...as the popular saying nowadays sound..."ada aku kesah ??? " say what ever u like la....hehehhehe
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For me, I do own several homage and i pay extra to ensure i get good movement, and good materials. I love watches, and i love the movement. I know I am staring at asian unitas, but that is what i do...i love looking the way the movement work, and always pray soon enough i could afford the real one....some people come to and label me as fake, it hurts however i also look it this way...as the popular saying nowadays sound..."ada aku kesah ??? " say what ever u like la....hehehhehe
As I said ,we are all here bcos of our love of watches be it "originals" or "homages". I think all of us are responsible,sensible and aware enough not to talk about fakes...
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the whole point why homages are viewed negatively is that people are 'confused' by it. confusion here can be caused by the impression of others on the watch. like i said in my analogy where people cannot tell the difference between panerai and marina militare from 5-10m. it is for that reason why homages are not condone. it doesnt matter whether the wearer can clarify that it is a homage or a replica. however, it the personal opinion that really counts in the end. however all watches to watchlovers are good regardless of homages or originals.
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homage watches are for those who just love the outer look of the watch and dont
really care about the movement, history, innovation, or originality.
I do not agree with your statement!
If you really want a homage watch, you must know the history of the watch n how it was design n bla bla bla... WithOut that respect how can you say HOMAGE? A real homage must be close to it's original design, history...
its ok to disagree bro :Cheers:
and im not talking about homage like ur vintage pam project,
but something like Alpha and some other brands that look exactly like more famous watch.
Even casio have homage. i've seen one that looks just like my casio protrek.
:Cheers: ;D ;D
For me if i cant afford the real thing, i'll buy something that look lebih kurang.
cant afford deep sea ill buy submariner, cant afford 312 ill buy 111.
as long as its original. ;D ;D