Malaysia Watch Forum
Main Forums => General Discussion - Modern Watches => Topic started by: ckoh on July 01, 2014, 06:31:26 AM
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hi! members, for panerai in house movement , automatic or hand wind will be better? If i spend over 20k to buy a panerai, which movement u will advise?
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depends, if it is your one and only watch go automatic.
if you have many, hand wind. IMO the quintessential PAM models that carry the PAM dna by the bucketloads are hand wound
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Movement are secondary to me when it comes to modern panerai. It's the appearance of the dial and case that's more important. However that being said, I do find majority of the panerai that I like happens to be hand wind.
I do have automatics but more than 75% of my panerai are hand wind.
The dial and case must come before the movement. That is the usual case for ppl buying panerai.
Best
T
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newbie here... what do you guys mean by "hand wind"?
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newbie here... what do you guys mean by "hand wind"?
use your hand to wind
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I got a radiomir recently and hand wind. I was happy that I did not get the 8 days Luminor as I enjoyed winding the watch every 3 days. In fact i hoped it was shorter.
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I got a radiomir recently and hand wind. I was happy that I did not get the 8 days Luminor as I enjoyed winding the watch every 3 days. In fact i hoped it was shorter.
You can wind it daily actually, without having to wait for the power reserve to run down. Some say, it is better for the movement.
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newbie here... what do you guys mean by "hand wind"?
use your hand to wind
you two... i almost spit my coffee on the screen :Laughing_on_floor:
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Noob question pertaining manual winding as I don't own one yet:-
Will there be more wear and tear for manual winding compare to automatic winding (with occasionally manual wind)?
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newbie here... what do you guys mean by "hand wind"?
use your hand to wind
you two... i almost spit my coffee on the screen :Laughing_on_floor:
You cannot be more specific... :Laughing_on_floor:
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Noob question pertaining manual winding as I don't own one yet:-
Will there be more wear and tear for manual winding compare to automatic winding (with occasionally manual wind)?
Answers is no. Automatic watch typically has more wear and tear compared to manual watches.
Automatic watches will continue to wind when worn and needs a mainspring clutch to avoid overwinding when power reserve is full
A wound up manual watch will just run its course until the end of its power reserve. You just have to make sure not to overwind it manually to avoid damage.
With less parts and less complicated, they are easier to service too (and should be relatively cheaper).
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An automatic can be hand-wound, but a hand-wind cannot be automatically re-wind.. ;D
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An automatic can be hand-wound, but a hand-wind cannot be automatically re-wind.. ;D
There are automatic movements that cannot be hand-wound, the Seiko 7S26 comes to mind. As for automatically winding hand-wound movement, check out the Orbita Sempre.
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Noob question pertaining manual winding as I don't own one yet:-
Will there be more wear and tear for manual winding compare to automatic winding (with occasionally manual wind)?
Answers is no. Automatic watch typically has more wear and tear compared to manual watches.
Automatic watches will continue to wind when worn and needs a mainspring clutch to avoid overwinding when power reserve is full
A wound up manual watch will just run its course until the end of its power reserve. You just have to make sure not to overwind it manually to avoid damage.
With less parts and less complicated, they are easier to service too (and should be relatively cheaper).
How to ensure we don't overwind a manual watch? Will the crown tighten or something else?
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Noob question pertaining manual winding as I don't own one yet:-
Will there be more wear and tear for manual winding compare to automatic winding (with occasionally manual wind)?
Answers is no. Automatic watch typically has more wear and tear compared to manual watches.
Automatic watches will continue to wind when worn and needs a mainspring clutch to avoid overwinding when power reserve is full
A wound up manual watch will just run its course until the end of its power reserve. You just have to make sure not to overwind it manually to avoid damage.
With less parts and less complicated, they are easier to service too (and should be relatively cheaper).
How to ensure we don't overwind a manual watch? Will the crown tighten or something else?
Yes, the crown will tighten up and you can naturally feel it. Pretty much like a wound-up toy.
Otherwise, a power reserve indicator is a handy feature to have, so you'll know when to stop
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To my point of feeling.. Hand wind is something that u giving the watch energy/life..
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This is why I am in dilemma to choose my second panerai, but Finally I get a automatic with the design I like. thank you for all advises from members! :Cheers:
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This is why I am in dilemma to choose my second panerai, but Finally I get a automatic with the design I like. thank you for all advises from members! :Cheers:
wrist shots! ;D
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Most of my pams are hand wind. I feel connected to the watch by winding it and at the same time, appreciate it more. Because of that, the feeling toward the watch will grow and most people ended up having more than 1 pam. That's how we get hooked to pam, I guess. :Confused:
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pam auto watches mostly solid back last time, because nothing to shout. they show it after the in house movement introduced, but new in house movement from pam also not good looking in my opinion
i love the eta modified/upgraded hand wind movement.... simply beautiful
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another noob question..
Isn't it possible that for manual winding watches, the force applied on winding the crown could be higher and irregular which puts more strain on the gears compared to automatic winding of the rotor where the force is more constant and controlled?What this means eventually is that automatic winding wears down the gears slower overall compared to manual winding.
Noob question pertaining manual winding as I don't own one yet:-
Will there be more wear and tear for manual winding compare to automatic winding (with occasionally manual wind)?
Answers is no. Automatic watch typically has more wear and tear compared to manual watches.
Automatic watches will continue to wind when worn and needs a mainspring clutch to avoid overwinding when power reserve is full
A wound up manual watch will just run its course until the end of its power reserve. You just have to make sure not to overwind it manually to avoid damage.
With less parts and less complicated, they are easier to service too (and should be relatively cheaper).
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another noob question..
Isn't it possible that for manual winding watches, the force applied on winding the crown could be higher and irregular which puts more strain on the gears compared to automatic winding of the rotor where the force is more constant and controlled?What this means eventually is that automatic winding wears down the gears slower overall compared to manual winding.
Noob question pertaining manual winding as I don't own one yet:-
Will there be more wear and tear for manual winding compare to automatic winding (with occasionally manual wind)?
Answers is no. Automatic watch typically has more wear and tear compared to manual watches.
Automatic watches will continue to wind when worn and needs a mainspring clutch to avoid overwinding when power reserve is full
A wound up manual watch will just run its course until the end of its power reserve. You just have to make sure not to overwind it manually to avoid damage.
With less parts and less complicated, they are easier to service too (and should be relatively cheaper).
Modern day hand-wound mechanical watches are made from some of the finest materials and can surely deal with regular usage and in this case, how it is meant to be used; winding the crown with hand.
Even the simplest hand-wound pocket watches would have the stem winding the smaller winding gear to the larger ratchet gear to reduce torque and allow minimal strength to wind the mainspring. The transfer of the irregular force that you refer to would be minimal to the rest of the watch mainspring or gear-train (hour/minutes/second) gear, hence unlikely wear from just winding the watch manually.
Check out watches like Glashutte Original's Senator Chronometer where they use a more elaborate planetary gear system for their winding and power reserve. It is silky smooooth.... Other fine examples are any of the standard Piaget hand-movements.
If any wear, it would be the Keyless-Works and that may be due to poor assembly or trying to wind it when worn on the wrist (angular/lateral forces that may damage the stem, hence advice is always take off the watch when winding manually)
Also, the force is not constant and controlled in an automatic watch, especially when worn, because we engage in different types activities and different patterns of lifestyle throughout the day.
It would be constant however, if the watch is strapped to a watch winder.
But would this wear the parts less than a manual watch? again the answer is no due to the constantly rotating rotor despite the mainspring is full. It's like a car accelerating and applying breaks in the same time (not a perfect analogy, but close)
In any case, with modern and improved materials nowadays, the difference between the 2 is very minimal. As long as the watches are not misused, and serviced regularly (within average of 5 years), it should outlast the owner. Even the most humble ETA/Valjoux can last longer than most of us here, if serviced and maintained well.
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another noob question..
Isn't it possible that for manual winding watches, the force applied on winding the crown could be higher and irregular which puts more strain on the gears compared to automatic winding of the rotor where the force is more constant and controlled?What this means eventually is that automatic winding wears down the gears slower overall compared to manual winding.
Noob question pertaining manual winding as I don't own one yet:-
Will there be more wear and tear for manual winding compare to automatic winding (with occasionally manual wind)?
Answers is no. Automatic watch typically has more wear and tear compared to manual watches.
Automatic watches will continue to wind when worn and needs a mainspring clutch to avoid overwinding when power reserve is full
A wound up manual watch will just run its course until the end of its power reserve. You just have to make sure not to overwind it manually to avoid damage.
With less parts and less complicated, they are easier to service too (and should be relatively cheaper).
Modern day hand-wound mechanical watches are made from some of the finest materials and can surely deal with regular usage and in this case, how it is meant to be used; winding the crown with hand.
Even the simplest hand-wound pocket watches would have the stem winding the smaller winding gear to the larger ratchet gear to reduce torque and allow minimal strength to wind the mainspring. The transfer of the irregular force that you refer to would be minimal to the rest of the watch mainspring or gear-train (hour/minutes/second) gear, hence unlikely wear from just winding the watch manually.
Check out watches like Glashutte Original's Senator Chronometer where they use a more elaborate planetary gear system for their winding and power reserve. It is silky smooooth.... Other fine examples are any of the standard Piaget hand-movements.
If any wear, it would be the Keyless-Works and that may be due to poor assembly or trying to wind it when worn on the wrist (angular/lateral forces that may damage the stem, hence advice is always take off the watch when winding manually)
Also, the force is not constant and controlled in an automatic watch, especially when worn, because we engage in different types activities and different patterns of lifestyle throughout the day.
It would be constant however, if the watch is strapped to a watch winder.
But would this wear the parts less than a manual watch? again the answer is no due to the constantly rotating rotor despite the mainspring is full. It's like a car accelerating and applying breaks in the same time (not a perfect analogy, but close)
In any case, with modern and improved materials nowadays, the difference between the 2 is very minimal. As long as the watches are not misused, and serviced regularly (within average of 5 years), it should outlast the owner. Even the most humble ETA/Valjoux can last longer than most of us here, if serviced and maintained well.
excellent explanation bro :thumbsup:
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This is why I am in dilemma to choose my second panerai, but Finally I get a automatic with the design I like. thank you for all advises from members! :Cheers:
wrist shots! ;D
Agree, it's compulsory after getting this much of attention! ;D ;D
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Movement are secondary to me when it comes to modern panerai. It's the appearance of the dial and case that's more important. However that being said, I do find majority of the panerai that I like happens to be hand wind.
I do have automatics but more than 75% of my panerai are hand wind.
The dial and case must come before the movement. That is the usual case for ppl buying panerai.
Best
T
Agreed. The importance of movements are sometimes overly hyped. oftentimes new "in-house" movement is actually less robust than proven "3 party" movement.
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Movement are secondary to me when it comes to modern panerai. It's the appearance of the dial and case that's more important. However that being said, I do find majority of the panerai that I like happens to be hand wind.
I do have automatics but more than 75% of my panerai are hand wind.
The dial and case must come before the movement. That is the usual case for ppl buying panerai.
Best
T
Agreed. The importance of movements are sometimes overly hyped. oftentimes new "in-house" movement is actually less robust than proven "3 party" movement.
Don't think there are so much differences between ETA and in-house movements of hand wound or automatics. All mechanical watch has the basic 5 parts:
- main spring
- gear train
- escapement
- balance wheel
- dial including hands
So why there is so much hype of an in-house movement?
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Movement are secondary to me when it comes to modern panerai. It's the appearance of the dial and case that's more important. However that being said, I do find majority of the panerai that I like happens to be hand wind.
I do have automatics but more than 75% of my panerai are hand wind.
The dial and case must come before the movement. That is the usual case for ppl buying panerai.
Best
T
Agreed. The importance of movements are sometimes overly hyped. oftentimes new "in-house" movement is actually less robust than proven "3 party" movement.
Don't think there are so much differences between ETA and in-house movements of hand wound or automatics. All mechanical watch has the basic 5 parts:
- main spring
- gear train
- escapement
- balance wheel
- dial including hands
So why there is so much hype of an in-house movement?
Off topic a bit and please allow me to do a not so good analogy of in-house and 3rd party movement.
Malaysia is finally going to the moon!!!
Rocket: Designed and parts made in Russia, assembled in Malaysia.
Shuttle: Designed and parts made in USA, assembled in Malaysia.
Astronauts: 2 Malaysian, 1 American and 1 Russian.
Technically speaking, there might be no differences if the rockets, shuttle and astronauts are purely from USA/Russia/Malaysia or the combination of all nations, eventually they will reach to the moon. Doing it all on one country's effort can be more expensive and take longer time as well.
But still, feeling like something's not complete, isn't it?
It is the exclusiveness, pride of challenge conquered and the feeling of "I do it all by myself and nailed it" that make "in-house" special and sought after, IMO.
"...We choose to go to the moon, not because they are easy, but because they are hard..." John F. Kennedy
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I was about to explain the same thing with self made pasta vs instant pasta, but I think I like the rocket+going to the moon analogy better. :thumbsup:
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I would pray hard for the astraunaut if the rocket is made fully ' in house' by malaysia.
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I would pray hard for the astraunaut if the rocket is made fully ' in house' by malaysia.
I second that ;D
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I'm sorry but that analogy doesn't descript the situation at all.
Not only it doesn't make sense it is flawed and misleading. It move away from discussing watch movement to being cynical about Malaysian space mission.
Please keep this in mind. In house movement is in no way guarantee superior than a thirty party movement like eta.
This is the same for all brand at all level. Even all the way up to Patek.
Watch brand has long blow the hone of in house movement not because it's superiority but the ability to control supply and excuse to charge the customer more.
I don't see how the rocket and moon analogy fit into that.
Regard
Tyler
Movement are secondary to me when it comes to modern panerai. It's the appearance of the dial and case that's more important. However that being said, I do find majority of the panerai that I like happens to be hand wind.
I do have automatics but more than 75% of my panerai are hand wind.
The dial and case must come before the movement. That is the usual case for ppl buying panerai.
Best
T
Agreed. The importance of movements are sometimes overly hyped. oftentimes new "in-house" movement is actually less robust than proven "3 party" movement.
Don't think there are so much differences between ETA and in-house movements of hand wound or automatics. All mechanical watch has the basic 5 parts:
- main spring
- gear train
- escapement
- balance wheel
- dial including hands
So why there is so much hype of an in-house movement?
Off topic a bit and please allow me to do a not so good analogy of in-house and 3rd party movement.
Malaysia is finally going to the moon!!!
Rocket: Designed and parts made in Russia, assembled in Malaysia.
Shuttle: Designed and parts made in USA, assembled in Malaysia.
Astronauts: 2 Malaysian, 1 American and 1 Russian.
Technically speaking, there might be no differences if the rockets, shuttle and astronauts are purely from USA/Russia/Malaysia or the combination of all nations, eventually they will reach to the moon. Doing it all on one country's effort can be more expensive and take longer time as well.
But still, feeling like something's not complete, isn't it?
It is the exclusiveness, pride of challenge conquered and the feeling of "I do it all by myself and nailed it" that make "in-house" special and sought after, IMO.
"...We choose to go to the moon, not because they are easy, but because they are hard..." John F. Kennedy
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I'm sorry but that analogy doesn't descript the situation at all.
Not only it doesn't make sense it is flawed and misleading. It move away from discussing watch movement to being cynical about Malaysian space mission.
Please keep this in mind. In house movement is in no way guarantee superior than a thirty party movement like eta.
This is the same for all brand at all level. Even all the way up to Patek.
Watch brand has long blow the hone of in house movement not because it's superiority but the ability to control supply and excuse to charge the customer more.
I don't see how the rocket and moon analogy fit into that.
Regard
Tyler
Agreed on your point :thumbsup:
In house movement is over rated if they are not proven over time, better stick with ETAs or the really established in house movement like the Rolex caliber 3135 which is being "mass produced" compared to other in house movements which may not stand the test of time like a Rolex.
Anyway, it all comes down to personal choice .... your money at the end when comes to servicing and the availability of parts etc .
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I'm sorry but that analogy doesn't descript the situation at all.
Not only it doesn't make sense it is flawed and misleading. It move away from discussing watch movement to being cynical about Malaysian space mission.
Please keep this in mind. In house movement is in no way guarantee superior than a thirty party movement like eta.
This is the same for all brand at all level. Even all the way up to Patek.
Watch brand has long blow the hone of in house movement not because it's superiority but the ability to control supply and excuse to charge the customer more.
I don't see how the rocket and moon analogy fit into that.
Regard
Tyler
Movement are secondary to me when it comes to modern panerai. It's the appearance of the dial and case that's more important. However that being said, I do find majority of the panerai that I like happens to be hand wind.
I do have automatics but more than 75% of my panerai are hand wind.
The dial and case must come before the movement. That is the usual case for ppl buying panerai.
Best
T
Agreed. The importance of movements are sometimes overly hyped. oftentimes new "in-house" movement is actually less robust than proven "3 party" movement.
Don't think there are so much differences between ETA and in-house movements of hand wound or automatics. All mechanical watch has the basic 5 parts:
- main spring
- gear train
- escapement
- balance wheel
- dial including hands
So why there is so much hype of an in-house movement?
Off topic a bit and please allow me to do a not so good analogy of in-house and 3rd party movement.
Malaysia is finally going to the moon!!!
Rocket: Designed and parts made in Russia, assembled in Malaysia.
Shuttle: Designed and parts made in USA, assembled in Malaysia.
Astronauts: 2 Malaysian, 1 American and 1 Russian.
Technically speaking, there might be no differences if the rockets, shuttle and astronauts are purely from USA/Russia/Malaysia or the combination of all nations, eventually they will reach to the moon. Doing it all on one country's effort can be more expensive and take longer time as well.
But still, feeling like something's not complete, isn't it?
It is the exclusiveness, pride of challenge conquered and the feeling of "I do it all by myself and nailed it" that make "in-house" special and sought after, IMO.
"...We choose to go to the moon, not because they are easy, but because they are hard..." John F. Kennedy
Everybody have their opinions and I am sure you are viewing the in-house vs 3rd party movement thing from different perspective.
If you notice, I've not mentioned anything regarding the superiority of in-house movement in terms of quality comparing with 3rd party movement like ETA. Of course I also aware that many newly developed (even some existing) in-house movements required much more cares and maintenance.
The point I try to make is, in case you have missed it, is all about the feeling of "exclusiveness, pride of challenge conquered and the feeling of "I do it all by myself and nailed it"
Making own in-house movements required tremendous R&D costs and time. If not doing it right, most of the time doesn't make good economy sense to the company. Another analogy, Proton. Proton could have just keep using some outdated Mitsubishi/Honda engines (which proven to be good and reliable over the years) and keep milking money out of it instead of making its own crappy CamPro engine.
But if Proton don't try, they will never able to progress to another level as a carmaker (of course they are still suck :Laughing_on_floor: ).
Back to watch. For example, if Panerai don't start to make their own in-movements, how would it distinguished itself from, say Longines, Laco, Oris, etc except for selling very much overpriced for basically the same ETA movements? And I'm not saying P.9000 is more superior than OP III. There's differences between watch manufacturer and watch Manufacturer.
For me, owning a watch which made its in-house movements associates myself with the spirits of innovations, courage and dare-to-be-different. That's just me, ok.
Cheers.
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Everybody have their opinions and I am sure you are viewing the in-house vs 3rd party movement thing from different perspective.
If you notice, I've not mentioned anything regarding the superiority of in-house movement in terms of quality comparing with 3rd party movement like ETA. Of course I also aware that many newly developed (even some existing) in-house movements required much more cares and maintenance.
The point I try to make is, in case you have missed it, is all about the feeling of "exclusiveness, pride of challenge conquered and the feeling of "I do it all by myself and nailed it"
Making own in-house movements required tremendous R&D costs and time. If not doing it right, most of the time doesn't make good economy sense to the company. Another analogy, Proton. Proton could have just keep using some outdated Mitsubishi/Honda engines (which proven to be good and reliable over the years) and keep milking money out of it instead of making its own crappy CamPro engine.
But if Proton don't try, they will never able to progress to another level as a carmaker (of course they are still suck :Laughing_on_floor: ).
Back to watch. For example, if Panerai don't start to make their own in-movements, how would it distinguished itself from, say Longines, Laco, Oris, etc except for selling very much overpriced for basically the same ETA movements? And I'm not saying P.9000 is more superior than OP III. There's differences between watch manufacturer and watch Manufacturer.
For me, owning a watch which made its in-house movements associates myself with the spirits of innovations, courage and dare-to-be-different. That's just me, ok.
Cheers.
i am waiting for it... i knew the Proton word is going to popup ;D
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Well if we are talking about feeling, in the context of exclusivity then I understand your point. Is like choosing Alfa Romeo over Toyota. More about feel than use.
Everybody have their opinions and I am sure you are viewing the in-house vs 3rd party movement thing from different perspective.
If you notice, I've not mentioned anything regarding the superiority of in-house movement in terms of quality comparing with 3rd party movement like ETA. Of course I also aware that many newly developed (even some existing) in-house movements required much more cares and maintenance.
The point I try to make is, in case you have missed it, is all about the feeling of "exclusiveness, pride of challenge conquered and the feeling of "I do it all by myself and nailed it"
Making own in-house movements required tremendous R&D costs and time. If not doing it right, most of the time doesn't make good economy sense to the company. Another analogy, Proton. Proton could have just keep using some outdated Mitsubishi/Honda engines (which proven to be good and reliable over the years) and keep milking money out of it instead of making its own crappy CamPro engine.
But if Proton don't try, they will never able to progress to another level as a carmaker (of course they are still suck :Laughing_on_floor: ).
Back to watch. For example, if Panerai don't start to make their own in-movements, how would it distinguished itself from, say Longines, Laco, Oris, etc except for selling very much overpriced for basically the same ETA movements? And I'm not saying P.9000 is more superior than OP III. There's differences between watch manufacturer and watch Manufacturer.
For me, owning a watch which made its in-house movements associates myself with the spirits of innovations, courage and dare-to-be-different. That's just me, ok.
Cheers.
-
Movement are secondary to me when it comes to modern panerai. It's the appearance of the dial and case that's more important. However that being said, I do find majority of the panerai that I like happens to be hand wind.
I do have automatics but more than 75% of my panerai are hand wind.
The dial and case must come before the movement. That is the usual case for ppl buying panerai.
Best
T
Agreed. The importance of movements are sometimes overly hyped. oftentimes new "in-house" movement is actually less robust than proven "3 party" movement.
Don't think there are so much differences between ETA and in-house movements of hand wound or automatics. All mechanical watch has the basic 5 parts:
- main spring
- gear train
- escapement
- balance wheel
- dial including hands
So why there is so much hype of an in-house movement?
Off topic a bit and please allow me to do a not so good analogy of in-house and 3rd party movement.
Malaysia is finally going to the moon!!!
Rocket: Designed and parts made in Russia, assembled in Malaysia.
Shuttle: Designed and parts made in USA, assembled in Malaysia.
Astronauts: 2 Malaysian, 1 American and 1 Russian.
Technically speaking, there might be no differences if the rockets, shuttle and astronauts are purely from USA/Russia/Malaysia or the combination of all nations, eventually they will reach to the moon. Doing it all on one country's effort can be more expensive and take longer time as well.
But still, feeling like something's not complete, isn't it?
It is the exclusiveness, pride of challenge conquered and the feeling of "I do it all by myself and nailed it" that make "in-house" special and sought after, IMO.
"...We choose to go to the moon, not because they are easy, but because they are hard..." John F. Kennedy
I reckon this is an excellent analogy.
But if Proton don't try, they will never able to progress to another level as a carmaker (of course they are still suck :Laughing_on_floor: ).
Protons aren't the greatest cars but they aren't that bad, either - they do the job. You guys are so lucky to have a domestic car manufacturer, one actually owned by your country no less. As our car manufacturers in Australia are now winding down, I am realising how much we, as a nation, are losing. You'd be wise to support your local manufacturer, IMO.
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i collected few watches, all is automatic watch
never plan to get self-winding watch before
just my own opinion cause too lazy, haha
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if you wanna feel your watch everyday... buy a winding one
if you wanna feel your watch once in few days... buy a long power reserve winding one
if you lazy to wind... buy auto
unless you compare
cal xx vs cal xx
or else cant compare