Malaysia Watch Forum
Main Forums => General Discussion - Modern Watches => Topic started by: sypuah on January 09, 2014, 12:38:35 PM
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Bell & Ross is it worth for money? I don't know why this brand watch can sell so high even they don't have in-house movement. Is it because the military watch and the special design?
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don't get me wrong, i like some of their designs but it is as far as i would go as the price can't really justify a purchase... but to each its own... came across excerpt below from askmen's watch snob:
Question:
I own a two-tone Nautilus that I inherited from my grandfather a few years ago. I love it, not only because it's a great watch, but because it also has sentimental value. Although it's a sports watch, as you mentioned in a previous post, I try not to use it too much. Recently, I've been looking at other more rugged watches. I really like the square Bell & Ross watches, but my dad, who is more of a watch snob, says it's tacky. What do you think?
Answer:
You grandfather’s Nautilus is a classic, cherish that. On to the Bell & Ross: They are good-looking watches and I know many people like them. However, they do something that is almost inexcusable in the eyes of the Watch Snob. Bell & Ross is a prime example of a company that is selling nothing more than a cool-looking case and a dynamite marketing plan. Every single one of its watches use nothing more than a stock, off-the-shelf ETA automatic movement, the same movement you can buy yourself for around $300. Yet, the price of the average Bell & Ross hovers around $4,500.
You tell me: Are you OK paying that much money knowing how much the movement costs and that it’s not even its own? Hell, even its $163,000 Tourbillon Phantom watch uses a movement bought from somebody else.
Watches are as much a craft as they are an accessory, and while I don’t find the looks of the Bell & Ross line to be tacky like your father, I do find everything else about them to be distasteful and utterly offensive. A watch is about the entire package, not just its appearance. Any large watch company not making its own movement is not making a watch at all; they’re just playing dress-up.
Original article here > http://www.askmen.com/fashion/fashiontip_500/528_watch-snob-the-true-value-of-bell-ross.html
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Having in house movement inside a watch doesn't guarantee its superiority.
Price is what you pay, value is what you get. Different people value things differently.
While I'm not particularly fond of B&R but I don't find the need to talk down the brand. After all this place to me is more of a watch appreciation forum than a criticize one.
Regard
Tyler
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Strong words from the watch snob. Anyway, my take on this? To some, having their own in-house movement is a big deal, to others not so. Why recreate the wheel when it is perfect as it is. There are dangers and associated issues when you design your own movement. And these can bring down your name if these issues appears on watches you sell with your in-house movement.
The ETA movement Bell and Ross use (and many many others) are robust and proven movement. So why not use them? Why not use movements that are proven reliable, robust, accurate and easy to service, as to making your own and have issues and have to worry about after sales service, parts, etc. it is nice to say that I have an in-house movement, but when it fails, getting it repaired is an adventure in its own.
There are lots of parts that makes up a watch, the movement being one of them. What about the case? The dial, the hands, etc? What about the engineering behind the watch itself. Have you seen the engineering that goes into the BR01? Have the watch snob?
I am not defending the price of the watches these company makes. Watches are luxury items, and each of us have our own tolerances when it comes to prices. Willing buyer, willing seller. If you think it is worth the money, go ahead, why not, enjoy the piece. If not, get something else that sings to you at a price you are willing to pay.
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I'm no B&R fan at all...
If a skilled tailor doesn't make his own cloth, does it make the clothes he makes any less desirable?
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B&R package an ETA movement very well, IMO.
That's about it.
Like what Watch Snob says, if you're willing to pay that price, then by all means go ahead. Same can be said for other things in life. You'll have to decide if it is worth it or not.
A watch is not just the movement, it's the whole package. At least, you can rest assure you have a well proven Swiss movement.
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B&R may not suit most people but I do find their dials unique. Aircraft instruments/inspiration and bringing it to our wrist is exceptional. The brand has great marketing. If you notice, 5 B&R dials are prominently displayed at the top of this forum. I will have one on my wrist in the future. :thumbsup:
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B&R does have its own identity and some of their pieces are pretty unique. The case and dial is very well made. B&R is priced very close to other brands like Tudor or some Omega that also uses ETA movements. You would normally need to pay significantly more for a true Swiss in-house movement.
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Well proven, reliable work horse ETA movement in a well designed and constructed timepiece. No complaints from me.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7216/7392654490_af6ac969ed_c.jpg)
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8254/8653263871_5861dd9bf5_c.jpg)
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i guess the thread starter knew this topic would be highly debatable but like I mentioned, to each its own... and another example of luxurious retrofitting is Spyker with their limited edition C8's using Audi V8 engines... needless to say, the total car costs more than the engine itself... or maybe the Watch Snob isn't much of an Auto Snob like Jeremy Clarkson???
maybe B&R could limit production of their product lines so that some may find it easier to justify the purchases? at the end of the day, if you can afford it and it makes you happy, pull the trigger! #YOLO :Cheers:
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Price is relative - we should compare apples with apples, and in this case with comparably designed watches bearing ETA movement to get a better perspective. IMHO, B&R has a justifiable business model (including going the ETA route) given its short history and since its brand is very focused (ie aeronautical and instrument linked) and not for the mass market, I think its price point is appropriate for its target market.
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with in house movement....
how much is
Seiko 5?
N
Grand seiko?
Both are automatic with in house movement, why grand seiko selling so high? ???
With eta
How much is
Invicta?
N
Frank muller?
Both in house, y frank muller selling so expensive? ???
in house = good = expensive ?
Eta = no good = cheap ?
:Confused:
Don't be confused! Things can sell must hv reason one...
For BR
- design design design - I love it, some1 hate it... When a strong DNA watch design out, u either love or hate it....
- quality - watch case, dial, hands. Crown, luminous, crystal, coating, etc BR gd? Yes
- trendy - yes, fashionable... Celebrities love it, their fan follow
- package - much better than Rolex right? Extra strap, tools, etc
Pls fall into " myth of in house "
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And since we're kicking down ETA equipped B&R, why not mention Tudor also uses ETA?
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You are wearing the watch not movement... ;D
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I'm no B&R fan at all...
If a skilled tailor doesn't make his own cloth, does it make the clothes he makes any less desirable?
- deep - :thumbsup:
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Potential for thread of the year 2014? ;D
I won't buy B&R but you have to admit they do make some good looking watches; especially the vintage series
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Nothing wrong with ETA movements...only thing is this...do you like the design of the watch? Does it look and feel good on your wrist. I think that lots of watches are not worth their prices and some are really unbelievably great deals. But such are the reality of things...what may seem cheap to me might be not worth the price for you. What may be a great deal to you might be expensive to me...
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B&R is relatively new watch co. but has pretty good marketing behind the brand ... see now is on the forum too displaying prominently, wonder how much is the sponsor worth to the forum. Well done for securing the sponsor/ advertiser.
B&R is one of the Top 10 marketing spender in advertising for their B&R brand.
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Hmm... seems like this thread has taken a life of its own and is focused on the movement rather than the brand... most of the industry uses ETA movements including IWC, and it is far easier to list the manufacturers that don't... no doubts about the capabilities of the movement...
i guess the challenge for B&R is that they're relatively new without as much heritage compared to the likes of the more established brands... and the price points are not to everyone's liking... the fact that we're arguing about B&R shows that they've done something right... if no one's blinking an eye, then they can 'tapau'...
hopefully they will try to manufacture their own movements for the more uptight WIS to take them seriously... this is a case of too many watches, too little wrists... you like some, you loathe some... am sure every watch in the world hopes to find a belonging wrist... Chinese saying (broken translation), "People also got mother that gave birth to them!" and in this case, there was someone who put in a lot of effort and time to make the watch... other than that, live and let live... peace!
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B&R may not suit most people but I do find their dials unique. Aircraft instruments/inspiration and bringing it to our wrist is exceptional. The brand has great marketing. If you notice, 5 B&R dials are prominently displayed at the top of this forum. I will have one on my wrist in the future. :thumbsup:
brand's marketing team fell asleep for the banner above... i want to know where Sans Francisco is... :Cheers:
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(http://distilleryimage9.s3.amazonaws.com/418cb69c62e211e38dff1209c9135191_8.jpg)
BR02-92 Pro Dial Diver Watch uses a Sellita SW200 movement. No complaints.
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Something to add... I went to the B&R Pavilion boutique in Nov 2013 and the salesperson was very friendly and introduced me some models (limited edition falcon with nice serial no., popular models, and told me some not so popular models). Overall nice watches with really unique identity. At the end he gave me their 2013 catalogue with B&R paper bag to carry around as if I am buying a watch but minus the watch in the bag.
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Well proven, reliable work horse ETA movement in a well designed and constructed timepiece. No complaints from me.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7216/7392654490_af6ac969ed_c.jpg)
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8254/8653263871_5861dd9bf5_c.jpg)
The screws doesn't line up?
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I've a BR01-92 that I'm using it as a desk clock.
I find that it's quite uncomfortable to wear due to it's large square shape.
The corners tend to get in the way.
However it's a pretty good collectors item due to it's unique design and the aviation collaboration it has with the planes.
So coming back to the question,"is it worth it",I don't know.....it's depends on how you look at it :Confused:
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I've a BR01-92 that I'm using it as a desk clock.
I find that it's quite uncomfortable to wear due to it's large square shape.
The corners tend to get in the way.
However it's a pretty good collectors item due to it's unique design and the aviation collaboration it has with the planes.
So coming back to the question,"is it worth it",I don't know.....it's depends on how you look at it :Confused:
You should have bought the BR03 instead. Pretty comfortable to wear. The BR01s are simply too huge!
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another myth
watch brand rich with history....
except rolex, patek, AP, VC, Piaget, Cartier, Omega, Seiko..... etc
many watch brand history actually 'cook out' one
those day making lousy watches, closed.... when big company buy over the name, they dig some old history and blow it....
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rich with history ... ... but we need to ask with what kind of history.
Watchmaking kind?
good ones or bad ones
Most company today except the holy trinity did nothing special before 1950s.
Hard to justify their product are heritage of the traditional way.
BTW I don't think B&R are misleading the public. On the contrary the general public aren't interested in any war time/military watches before B&R.
I have to respect them for that.
As for their watch, well maybe one day ;)
Regard
Tyler
another myth
watch brand rich with history....
except rolex, patek, AP, VC, Piaget, Cartier, Omega, Seiko..... etc
many watch brand history actually 'cook out' one
those day making lousy watches, closed.... when big company buy over the name, they dig some old history and blow it....
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I like the B&R design. Especially the new vintage series. Unique design
But the price is a bit high. I wouldn't get one unless there was a very good discount.
The fact that they don't make their own movements is fine. Then as a company they can concentrate their resources on the design of the watch. Stock ETA movements are reliable and proven.
After my encounter with my zenith, which has an in house movement and had a low power reserve issue the minute I took it out of the shop, I find the whole argument about buying watches with in house movements a bit over-rated. But this is my view only.
As some have said here, at the end of the day its the overall watch design (case, dial, hands, strap and movement) that count.
How often does one look at the back of their watch to see the movement through a transparent case back?
Most of the time I look at the dial, index & hands (to tell the time) and to me thats an important part of looking at a value of the watch.
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Human is fun... We all love diff color.
Our fren here during our gtg was telling me rolex make a lousy big movement, hence the case back always solid
A fren here said only the one able to make in house movement r true watch manufacturer
While another guy here said accuracy is second to none, nothing to his acceptable level of 5 second a day for a watch over thousand
N some always look for robust daily beater and low maintenance movement watch
Ah bang only want long power reserve... He said auto watch hv less than 70 hrs don't make sense cause he out down watch after 7pm every Friday, Monday morning he don't hv time to set time when he put his watch on
Tyler was right on me... I hv super wide acceptance tolerance
Mainly due to i always trying to understand designer/brand philosophy when he made the watch,
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/yenfoolun/5e88e12b2f6470bac9746488e40f1fa0_zpsb96456f0.jpg)
I notice msian is very very brand conscious, we all hv frens including my wife will die die nvr drive a proton, just Bcoz he / she don't like proton, the brand, nvr zoom into the particular model!
So as watches, does all patek Lange ap watches look good to you?
I don't care on this brand, I love my BR01-92 Air Borne II LE above because
- I simply think this watch..... COOL !
- the watch case was purposely sand blasted to make it look.... Seasoned...
- the leather strap with the watch is also processed to match the case
I actually doesn't really care about the story of creating this watch...
I always care about long term maintenance of watch... With ETA I'm less concern!
New in house or proven problem movement.... That's what I m avoiding!
It does sit well on my small 6.5" wrist, try it urself n don't judge base on others!
Ps - lucky I acquired this b4 the BR clock on MWF
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B&R is an OK brand. Good marketing and targeting a specific niche market i.e. the sporty over the edge alpha males.
IMO, they do have some nice designs. Would I buy one? Sure why not (since I'm an Aircraft engineer - so have to for the aviation theme...hehehe) but unfortunately all of their designs are over 40mm, since my arm is not that big, it does look like I'm wearing a wall clock on my arm. That goes the same for Breitlings.... huhuhu....
Bottomline, it boils down to an individual "WOW" factor. Buy it for your pride and joy...and nothing else.
Peace...
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For Bell & Ross, I would say certain series deserve the price (I believe this applicable to all other brands as well)
For me, their Aviation series is an instant modern day classic!!!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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watch is just like a tee you like and you buy to put it on. movement? :Confused:
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Late to this topic, gonna share my thoughts too:
Malaysian generally love B&R imo, it looks cool, nice design and comes with certain brand recognition among Malaysian. I'm not sure about other countries in Asia, but here, generally, people (whether watch snob or not) know the brand B&R.
This has to do with good marketing work by B&R, and furthermore, B&R is sponsors to Malaysiawatchforum and from what i read, forumers get invited to launch events etc. This create bond and awareness to the brand.
Imo, there is nothing wrong in buying B&R as perceived worth of certain brands varied to different demographic. Also, the purchasing objective may be different from one to another.
For some, they want a watch which is recognizable, and to some, they want a watch that gives them the most value for money.
I would say if for recognition, B&R is consider one of those more affordable brand, as compare to Rolex, Patek, Panerai etc. Another brand which is along the line with B&R is probably Tudor. Both brands used ETA, which imo is respectable.
If the objective is to get the best value for money, then perhaps one can get other brands with probably same movements and style with much affordable price range. E.g. Stowa, Sinns, just to name two.
So the question is, you might like B&R design more, so is the design and finish worth the different? Bear in mind too, brand like Stowa, also reknowned for its finishing. If yes, Congratulation, go for it.
In sum, the different is probably: general public brand recognition and perceived value, Swiss made and design.
I like B&R.
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design is the most important part of watch... do u agree with me?
now we see
more brands dare to make so squarish case
many brands play with black case black dial with white/orange/red/yellow/blue.... luminous marker and hands
many brands play with phantom, black case and grey luminous lume and hands....
many brands also hv vintage theme series
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Design nope, not the most important.
Design is bonus.
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Design nope, not the most important.
Design is bonus.
What is most important to u come to watch?
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Design nope, not the most important.
Design is bonus.
What is most important to u come to watch?
Rolek chop on dial :Dancing_banana: :Jumping:
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Design nope, not the most important.
Design is bonus.
Except the really hardcore WIS who keeps harping on movements or technical prowess...
For the others... I would say 70-80% of the general watch buyers look at design first and foremost.
A watch with an excellent movement but ugly design won't really sell unless it looks good aesthetically...
So, I don't really understand what it means by "design is a bonus"
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Design nope, not the most important.
Design is bonus.
Except the really hardcore WIS who keeps harping on movements or technical prowess...
For the others... I would say 70-80% of the general watch buyers look at design first and foremost.
A watch with an excellent movement but ugly design won't really sell unless it looks good aesthetically...
So, I don't really understand what it means by "design is a bonus"
I would think the majority would look at the brands first then only the design ....
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Design nope, not the most important.
Design is bonus.
Except the really hardcore WIS who keeps harping on movements or technical prowess...
For the others... I would say 70-80% of the general watch buyers look at design first and foremost.
A watch with an excellent movement but ugly design won't really sell unless it looks good aesthetically...
So, I don't really understand what it means by "design is a bonus"
I would think the majority would look at the brands first then only the design ....
Concur with @Contender, generally, Brand > Design > Specification.
WIS - Specification > Design > Brand
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Design nope, not the most important.
Design is bonus.
What is most important to u come to watch?
The looks, especially the dial layout, then colours.
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Hanz,
We can't argue about it. Major part of the population make purchase decision based on popularity. Brand name is one of the easiest indicator.
Think about it, zirconia fitted quartz watch out sell mechanical time piece by many fold. WHY?
Getting the diamond look but not paying the price of diamond
Getting the same watch but not paying the price of mechanical movement
How wonderful is that! :)
Tie in with a famous top 10 brand and you're golden.
Who wanna bother to study movement technicalities, finishing, dial & case coherent and serviceability.
We're weirdos ... ... admit it.
Regard
Tyler
Design nope, not the most important.
Design is bonus.
Except the really hardcore WIS who keeps harping on movements or technical prowess...
For the others... I would say 70-80% of the general watch buyers look at design first and foremost.
A watch with an excellent movement but ugly design won't really sell unless it looks good aesthetically...
So, I don't really understand what it means by "design is a bonus"
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afterall.... design and marketing sells.... not the watch technical spec...
marketing who blow the watch spec, blow the history....
with good design, it sure sell....
classic design sell example - Sevenfriday
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So is B&R worth it? Its a Yes and No. I love the design of WW1 & 2 tho.
Boring with discussion without pics, why dont B&R owner shows us some pics and tell us what you like about the watch that you bought?
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So is B&R worth it? Its a Yes and No. I love the design of WW1 & 2 tho.
Boring with discussion without pics, why dont B&R owner shows us some pics and tell us what you like about the watch that you bought?
It's about the design. Don't bother discussing the movement as that's nothing spectacular. You like square case design? You like aviation theme? Then it's a yes.
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So is B&R worth it? Its a Yes and No. I love the design of WW1 & 2 tho.
Boring with discussion without pics, why dont B&R owner shows us some pics and tell us what you like about the watch that you bought?
It's about the design. Don't bother discussing the movement as that's nothing spectacular. You like square case design? You like aviation theme? Then it's a yes.
Joker. why don't get random brand cheap plak Square watch or aviation watch? Where the hell did I said movement? I said brand come first for most Malaysian. Don't read between the lines please. I respect your opinion, as much as you should respect mine, don't quote my words, without respecting it.
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Yes Tyler... I admit I am weird... hehehe
hidden830726... chill bro... I do not know which part of dpkong's post offended you.
Your statement about B&R being worth it is a yes and no.
You asked B&R owners to come out and show some pics while telling us what they like.
Dpkong was guessing it must be the design since there is nothing much interesting to talk about with the movements that they're using.
He was asking if you like the design? You like the aviation theme? If it's a yes to both... then go ahead.
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I sincerely apologized to dpkong then if that is what it means. The "Dont bother" must have gotten my nerve. :Cheers:
I meant lets have some nice B&R pics from forumer, so that we can get mesmerized by them.
Well, a thread is never complete if without a pic right? :Dancing_banana:
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Hmm... I read dpkong's comments the same way bro Han interpreted it. Chill bro. I am a proud owner of a B&R BR03-94 phantom and IMHO, it really is about the design as there really is nothing much to discuss about when it comes to the movement since they are mostly off the shelf ETA and Valjoux. Somehow, the Phantom looks horrible in photos since it is all black.
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Well, a thread is never complete if without a pic right? :Dancing_banana:
as u wish
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/yenfoolun/BR01-92%20Carbon%20fiber/BellampRossBR01-92CarbonFiberLE6_zps8655c2c6.jpg)
beautiful screw in crown
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/yenfoolun/BR01-92%20Carbon%20fiber/BellampRossBR01-92CarbonFiberLE3_zps5bfbe857.jpg)
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/yenfoolun/BR01-92%20Carbon%20fiber/BellampRossBR01-92CarbonFiberLE5_zps8a6f89f0.jpg)
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/yenfoolun/BR01-92%20Carbon%20fiber/BellampRossBR01-92CarbonFiberLE2_zps8c326423.jpg)
the package alone is attractive
nice box, well protected....
fullset inclusive of - boxes, papers, warranty card, strap changing tools, velcro strap, rubber strap, carbon fiber looking strap. GOOD? I will say ..... Hell YES !!!
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/yenfoolun/BR01-92%20Carbon%20fiber/BellampRossBR01-92CarbonFiberLE1_zps247b5696.jpg)
and a a wrist shots on my 6.5" wrist... its actually super comfortable !
try it yourself
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I have this...
(http://i320.photobucket.com/albums/nn322/TheHobbit_01/Collection/DSC_8569.jpg)
Use to have these...
(http://i320.photobucket.com/albums/nn322/TheHobbit_01/Collection/L1060197.jpg)
Would love to get these...
(http://i320.photobucket.com/albums/nn322/TheHobbit_01/Collection/IMG_0396.jpg)
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Would love to get these...
(http://i320.photobucket.com/albums/nn322/TheHobbit_01/Collection/IMG_0396.jpg)
my brain had to work hard to read time on those watches ::)
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Would love to get these...
(http://i320.photobucket.com/albums/nn322/TheHobbit_01/Collection/IMG_0396.jpg)
my brain had to work hard to read time on those watches ::)
Once u used to read it... It will be easy, just as fast as normal watch...
But good thing is, ppl ard u don't get to read the time as fast as u
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Those are really some awesome watches.
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Would love to get these...
(http://i320.photobucket.com/albums/nn322/TheHobbit_01/Collection/IMG_0396.jpg)
my brain had to work hard to read time on those watches ::)
Once u used to read it... It will be easy, just as fast as normal watch...
But good thing is, ppl ard u don't get to read the time as fast as u
Bad thing is hard to sell because people scare hard to read the time..
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Would love to get these...
(http://i320.photobucket.com/albums/nn322/TheHobbit_01/Collection/IMG_0396.jpg)
my brain had to work hard to read time on those watches ::)
Once u used to read it... It will be easy, just as fast as normal watch...
But good thing is, ppl ard u don't get to read the time as fast as u
Bad thing is hard to sell because people scare hard to read the time..
U still don't get me... It's easy to read when u used to it! Hard to read Bcoz u too used to read traditional design watch...
And nowadays
Ppl buying watches Bcoz of its 'cool' !
Its selling without ur knowledge ... I too like the red radar!