Officine Panerai - Just a fashion house??

[Godzillaz]

That make you're a hopeless fashion victim, Stan. 

Here's me joining you.


Regard
Tyler

Bro Gloomis ,

Each individual has their own preference bro.. My money i spend my own way . whether today i buy a pam or rolex or a "lapsap" watch . i Suka la.. HAHA.. anyway i am risti just like you and thanks to you .. Peace Bro ...


 

Stan

[kentkoh79]

just  sharing two photos from this forum : http://www.discuss.com.hk/viewthread.php?tid=20514032&extra=page%3D9###




Panerai looks at its best on a female wrist !! 

agreed to bro fidoneo and ckcspice ! it is doesnt matter whether panerai is a fashion watch or a professional watch , the most important thing is buy what you like and how the watch looking on your wrist and as long as you r happy and connected with that watch ... Anyway just awaiting to see Expendible 2 and anticipated to see how the PAM 382 looked on those super stars wrist 

[Kennypane]

hi guys. Sorry for the interruption here. I find it funny that Panerai was accused of being a fashion brand. To me fashion brand is errr Chanel? Maybe Alain Silberstein? Cartier was a fashion brand until they really proved themselves to be in the high end watchmaking league. High complications. Some say adidas and dkny and guess? No. I don't think u can put panerai to these names. That's shameful. Van Cleef, Burberry, Gucci, maybe LV, can be considered fashion brand. Hermes, cannot be considered fashion brand cos they quite innovative with some of their complications. I love Franck Muller cos complication on the highest realm. Look at their watches, all so complicated and they appear fashionable but does not mean they fashion brand. so what's the problem with Panerai? Why I read one member here so dislike Panerai? I mean why he asking everyone to justify his own beliefs that Panerai is a fashion brand wor? it's the whole floor against one person or one person against whole floor? Not fair. I love the romanticism on it's history about a watch being involved in the war. That's cool. Rolex supplied movement to their 3646, even more excellent. Look at carefully on the layout or design of the 6497 to the Rolex supplied hand wind movement, they look similar. I love the California dial. I love the plexi, I love Radiomir case more than luminor case. Sorry guys cos I find it closer to Panerai history or more relevant. Panerai is proving itself through developing their own movements. It's a brand which will appeal to a small group of people worldwide. Not everyone likes it. To those who really have small wrist will complain it's too big and appear as a fashion brand just bcos Panerai is big at 44mm and above. Those who have small wrist can opt for the 40mm one, no wrong. I also like the 232, 249, already mentioned, the JLC equipped Panerai also damn nice. People actually invest their lives to write Vintage Panerai book. Panerai is a tool watch. I dunno how strap became a debate here. So funny. Just because a watch can change strap becomes a fashion brand. What cock calling in the morning. Hilarious. I find the picture with that great looking lady wearing the Pam so sexy. Very very nice Marina Militaire shown here and also very nice Mare Nostrum. Lovely. Oh btw Hobbit, I like lurking on your horologycrazy place. U know your watches and nicely consolidated Pam collection. So is Panerai a fashion brand? IMHO, NO!!! it's a watch not for everyone, price driven by short supply and crazy demands, paneristi can bang tables if they wait too long, it's a brand with incidents on and off such as peeling coating on their black cases, NY boutique edition with raw Unitas movements undecorated, ok it's not acceptable. let me see, service sometimes sucks. But hey, it's a watch brand learning and growing up and crazy Italian brand revived, rebranded, induced with was history, real history and stories dug deeper to evoke stronger passion among fans and collectors. No wrong in that. I love the cushion Radiomir. Ppl buy Panerai because they know what is inside and outside and they can carry their Panerai on their wrists at least. Every watch brand is a fashion statement, be it an IWC, Rollies, Omegas or whatever. U put the watch on your wrist as a statement. If it looks good, it is called a fashion statement. If it does not, it's called fugly statement. Are these aforementioned brands fashion brands? No they are not. Panerai is a real watch, not your quartz fashion watch.

[rusminag]

Kenny,  please have paragraphs... Please give the readers some brakes...

[fidoneo]

That make you're a hopeless fashion victim, Stan. 

Here's me joining you.


Regard
Tyler

Bro Gloomis ,

Each individual has their own preference bro.. My money i spend my own way . whether today i buy a pam or rolex or a "lapsap" watch . i Suka la.. HAHA.. anyway i am risti just like you and thanks to you .. Peace Bro ...


 

Stan

Bro Tyler agree

We are hopeless fashion people spending a few hundred k on fashion watches and straps hip hip hooray to us . We should open a few bottles of wine to celebrate ...



 

[TheHobbit]

Interesting time to be in, opportunity to see how a brand develops (or not) and be a part of it.

Fashion brand, no, fashion conscious, likely.

Best of all about the brand, if you are like me, want the watch that looks like the watches it issued many many years ago, just go historic. If you like something more modern, with complication, go contemporary. All while still maintaining its basic design, tool watch with great lume and simple to read dial.

[fidoneo]

hi guys. Sorry for the interruption here. I find it funny that Panerai was accused of being a fashion brand. To me fashion brand is errr Chanel? Maybe Alain Silberstein? Cartier was a fashion brand until they really proved themselves to be in the high end watchmaking league. High complications. Some say adidas and dkny and guess? No. I don't think u can put panerai to these names. That's shameful. Van Cleef, Burberry, Gucci, maybe LV, can be considered fashion brand. Hermes, cannot be considered fashion brand cos they quite innovative with some of their complications. I love Franck Muller cos complication on the highest realm. Look at their watches, all so complicated and they appear fashionable but does not mean they fashion brand. so what's the problem with Panerai? Why I read one member here so dislike Panerai? I mean why he asking everyone to justify his own beliefs that Panerai is a fashion brand wor? it's the whole floor against one person or one person against whole floor? Not fair. I love the romanticism on it's history about a watch being involved in the war. That's cool. Rolex supplied movement to their 3646, even more excellent. Look at carefully on the layout or design of the 6497 to the Rolex supplied hand wind movement, they look similar. I love the California dial. I love the plexi, I love Radiomir case more than luminor case. Sorry guys cos I find it closer to Panerai history or more relevant. Panerai is proving itself through developing their own movements. It's a brand which will appeal to a small group of people worldwide. Not everyone likes it. To those who really have small wrist will complain it's too big and appear as a fashion brand just bcos Panerai is big at 44mm and above. Those who have small wrist can opt for the 40mm one, no wrong. I also like the 232, 249, already mentioned, the JLC equipped Panerai also damn nice. People actually invest their lives to write Vintage Panerai book. Panerai is a tool watch. I dunno how strap became a debate here. So funny. Just because a watch can change strap becomes a fashion brand. What cock calling in the morning. Hilarious. I find the picture with that great looking lady wearing the Pam so sexy. Very very nice Marina Militaire shown here and also very nice Mare Nostrum. Lovely. Oh btw Hobbit, I like lurking on your horologycrazy place. U know your watches and nicely consolidated Pam collection. So is Panerai a fashion brand? IMHO, NO!!! it's a watch not for everyone, price driven by short supply and crazy demands, paneristi can bang tables if they wait too long, it's a brand with incidents on and off such as peeling coating on their black cases, NY boutique edition with raw Unitas movements undecorated, ok it's not acceptable. let me see, service sometimes sucks. But hey, it's a watch brand learning and growing up and crazy Italian brand revived, rebranded, induced with was history, real history and stories dug deeper to evoke stronger passion among fans and collectors. No wrong in that. I love the cushion Radiomir. Ppl buy Panerai because they know what is inside and outside and they can carry their Panerai on their wrists at least. Every watch brand is a fashion statement, be it an IWC, Rollies, Omegas or whatever. U put the watch on your wrist as a statement. If it looks good, it is called a fashion statement. If it does not, it's called fugly statement. Are these aforementioned brands fashion brands? No they are not. Panerai is a real watch, not your quartz fashion watch.

Well said bro .. So are you wearing a dkny watch today ?? Hehe


Stan

[sooncheng1990]

wah.....hot discussion here bro. 

Last year i bought a new pam 111 for twenty one birthday. Bought from Singkie AD. My first good watch. My roommate also got one, look cool with black rubber and when we wear T-shirts & jeans. 

I wore it for nearly 6 months....but just not good.    The crown just hurt my hand  . Worse is that there were some dusts in the front glass and the glass at the back. Can see quite clearly, but did not see when I buy. So frust, took back to AD. AD told me need to send to customer service people at King Center!!! They cleaned it for me, no charge. But more issues after that. The watch become slow by almost 5 minutes every day. Nearly missed my stats exam!!!  So another trip to customer service. They assked me if the watch ever dropped down to the floor. I said no.....said it was OK until my last repair visit to the service center. They repaired it again, but I can only collect the watch 2 day's later. Dunno....maybe they have lots of other watches to repair. The watch got fixed (FOC) bbut I have no more confidence in PAM. So I stopped wearing it. Then sold it. Lost soem money but we learn from mistakes. 

Now looking fdor a good outdoor watch. I know PAM ristis are sensitive and protective of the brand...my view is this is not a real watch brand. Maybe not like DKNY or Police or Nautica, but PAM brand is concentrate of fashion, not a watch that will give confidence to wearer it will work properly....won't buy again.

 

[gloomis]

I now looking fdor a good outdoor watch. I know PAM ristis are sensitive and protective of the brand...my view is this is not a real watch brand. Maybe not like DKNY or Police or Nautica, but PAM brand is concentrate of fashion, not a watch that will give confidence to wearer it will work properly....won't buy again.

Bro, from my experience if u need a very good solid made outdoor watch, please take my advise go for rolex even tho i am a risti now. I might be very supportive to pams but i have to agree that their casing is not tat solid. I love outdoor activities and i tried many brands like rolex, iwc, JLC, pams, omega, tag. Nothing come close to rolex casing....Nothing!!

[gloomis]

That make you're a hopeless fashion victim, Stan. 

Here's me joining you.


Regard
Tyler

oh my....ur FASHION watch hands is moulded. thats the worst fashion watch i seen so far. u might consider to throw this fashion watch away and get a new pcs

[sooncheng1990]

I now looking fdor a good outdoor watch. I know PAM ristis are sensitive and protective of the brand...my view is this is not a real watch brand. Maybe not like DKNY or Police or Nautica, but PAM brand is concentrate of fashion, not a watch that will give confidence to wearer it will work properly....won't buy again.

Bro, from my experience if u need a very good solid made outdoor watch, please take my advise go for rolex even tho i am a risti now. I might be very supportive to pams but i have to agree that their casing is not tat solid. I love outdoor activities and i tried many brands like rolex, iwc, JLC, pams, omega, tag. Nothing come close to rolex casing....Nothing!!

Bro...TQ.  Now I am moving away from PAm but wish is Omega or a Tag. I know Rolex is good, but makes me look old. Also, the price is out of my budget after I sell my PAM111. 
...But Thanks for advise...

[Godzillaz]

Hi sooncheng,

I'm sorry you have such problem with your 111. Basically what you have is poorly regulated watch. All you need is to tell the person to repair watch to regulate it more thoroughly. The unitas based manual wind movement is robust, tested and trusted for many years. The only reason it's faulty might be broken parts or loss precision due to impact.

Hope this find you well

Regard
Tyler

[ckng515]

Dear members,

It has always been my opinion that Officine Panerai is not a watchmaking company but a just fashion house like DKNY, Dior, ...etc.

Panerai watches are all more about looks + aesthetics. Panerai lovers' obsession with the leather straps and the multitude of companies making straps for these watches partly support this view. When the watches do not come with see-through casebacks, I have seen photos of the movement underneath being not just undecorated, but downright raw and rough. This is evidence that the company is more concerned about cosmetics than the actual performance of the watches themselves (considering the movement is the heart of a watch).  Companies like Stowa and Steinhart (or even Sea-Gull) have more self-respect than these Italians.

Considering their sizes, they look awkward as dress watches. Whilst some models have rotating bezel for diving, the majority don't - hence although these watches are claimed to be rated to 300m, they are practically useless as diving watches. In fact, it is not entirely clear which genre these watches belong to, except that they function as strong fashion statements for young people who want to appear bold and confident.

Their sale strategy (with countless special editions) shows they are not in the business of making good watches, but are here to play with human emotions and lust for exclusivity.

Let the discussion begin!!!

   

Hi mate,
Happy morning!
This is for more pleasure than reading the newspaper.

Officine Panerai just a fashion house?
I really hope I can buy some jeans and shoes from them,this will save me a lots of trouble in mixing and matching my daily outfit.I'm a shoe and jeans freaks btw.

DKNY?!?!?
Come on mate, a bit too harsh.Better compare with Cartier,Chanel and Hermes etc..more classy!
When you think it's a fashion brand no matter how much facts and points we share, we cannot change you,unless you started this thread to look for inspiration, to convince yourself to buy a Panerai. Or else this discussion will heading no where.
If you think OP is a fashion house like DKNY,Dior, just walk away from this brand.
What I can say is wearing an oversized watches(or a clock) is DA trend now.OP basically offer a whole lots of selection when you decided to follow the trend. Even some so called "self respected, well known, historical blah blah " watchmaker brand have to follow the trend.Upsize their watch casing. What to do thats what's the market demands.
Therefor OP is a trendy watchmaker,I still can accept la.

"This is evidence that the company is more concerned about cosmetics than the actual performance of the watches themselves (considering the movement is the heart of a watch).  Companies like Stowa and Steinhart (or even Sea-Gull) have more self-respect than these Italians."
If you are referring to the PAM00318 issue,I have no comment,
but then again, OP have a lots more pieces with well decorated movements, try google PAM00317K,PAM00319,PAM00348,PAM00350,PAM36500,PAM36501 and PAM36502 I find the movement underneath those robust casing makes them quite a Heart!
Sea gull? no way..try handle their tourby!


"Considering their sizes, they look awkward as dress watches. Whilst some models have rotating bezel for diving, the majority don't - hence although these watches are claimed to be rated to 300m, they are practically useless as diving watches."
Some are claimed to be rated 2500m and with fugly rotating bezel!
Y useless? I don't quite understand.but i guess not many people will dive with their precious collection. I dive with my rollie(rated 300m) seiko(200m) Sinn(1000m) before,practically they are useless too.I look at my dive computer more!
I just want to find out the money I spent on the so called diver's watch whether they are truly water resistant, but I can only dive for ~20m.
If you are happy with a 36mm dress watch, by all means, stick with it.don't bother about what other's are wearing.

"Their sale strategy (with countless special editions) shows they are not in the business of making good watches, but are here to play with human emotions and lust for exclusivity."
Buying is emotional, I think majority of the WIS will agree with me, when you finally bagged something is highly sought after and it's rare,you emotion will take over:)
Special edition is an useful and effective marketing strategy!Way too many special edition? from the company point of view, why not?
This is a very useful trick to generate more income from a particular cash cow from a brand.All the company like SE,Limited edition,etc,
In conjunction with the opening of new boutique worldwide, therefore you'll see more all look the same Se/BE. what to do, can sell ma.


To me watch collecting is a passion!It's a fun thing to do!
Mate, seek value!
Seek value in whatever we like and dislike,what others like, we will have more fun!
I still enjoy my oversize DYN...opps..OP, even a lots of ppl say I'm wearing a clock on my wrist,I take it as a compliment. 


Just my 2 cents.


 
ck


 

[zameenzahari]

wah.....hot discussion here bro. 

Last year i bought a new pam 111 for twenty one birthday. Bought from Singkie AD. My first good watch. My roommate also got one, look cool with black rubber and when we wear T-shirts & jeans. 

I wore it for nearly 6 months....but just not good.    The crown just hurt my hand  . Worse is that there were some dusts in the front glass and the glass at the back. Can see quite clearly, but did not see when I buy. So frust, took back to AD. AD told me need to send to customer service people at King Center!!! They cleaned it for me, no charge. But more issues after that. The watch become slow by almost 5 minutes every day. Nearly missed my stats exam!!!  So another trip to customer service. They assked me if the watch ever dropped down to the floor. I said no.....said it was OK until my last repair visit to the service center. They repaired it again, but I can only collect the watch 2 day's later. Dunno....maybe they have lots of other watches to repair. The watch got fixed (FOC) bbut I have no more confidence in PAM. So I stopped wearing it. Then sold it. Lost soem money but we learn from mistakes. 

Now looking fdor a good outdoor watch. I know PAM ristis are sensitive and protective of the brand...my view is this is not a real watch brand. Maybe not like DKNY or Police or Nautica, but PAM brand is concentrate of fashion, not a watch that will give confidence to wearer it will work properly....won't buy again.

Sorry to hear that you got a lemon. I have owned PAMs for about 10 years now and so far (touch wood), I've not had any issues be it with the UNITAS or in-house. I've only had to change mainspring for my PAM 183 after about 6 years of regular use. Other than that, so far, so good.

on the other hand, I've had some QC problem with my Exp 2 (loose screw) after 3 months of purchase from the AD...but that did not change my view that Rolex is still a respected watchmaking brand (they did make good and I enjoyed a trouble free ownership after that)...point is sometimes you get to pull the shortest straw.

[sooncheng1990]

I'm sorry you have such problem with your 111. Basically what you have is poorly regulated watch. All you need is to tell the person to repair watch to regulate it more thoroughly. The unitas based manual wind movement is robust, tested and trusted for many years. The only reason it's faulty might be broken parts or loss precision due to impact.

Hope this find you well

Regard
Tyler

Thanks Bro... in aniother forum people also told me the PAM111 mechanism is from well tested source. If well tested, then how come it slowwed 5 minits a day?  The PAM111 has long history already. If PAM is serious, should not have this problem. The customer service people also did not say what is wrong. Just said maybe I accidentally knock the watch. I just could not risk wrong timing with my watch again. So I decided not to wear it. Maybe I am unlucky.  My PAM is sold now. Will stay away from this brand...sorry. My room mate still has his one, but itching to sell so can buy a IWC diver. 

[tonykpk]

one man's meat is another man's poison...dont think any persuasion or opinions from either side of the camp will sway anyone to defect n switch sides ....so just buy what u like with ur own hard earned money....doesnt matter wat other folks say bout how u spend ur RM30k or RM100k...as long as u r happy....

Agreed CK, but there are people buying on impulse, follow the herd mentality buying (like some people are wearing it I've got to get one). At the end of the day they might " owned many knives but none is sharp". regards tony

[Enkidu]

When you think it's a fashion brand no matter how much facts and points we share, we cannot change you,unless you started this thread to look for inspiration, to convince yourself to buy a Panerai. Or else this discussion will heading no where.

Thanks for the entertaining sales pitch CK.

Since my discussion ended with Hobbitt yesterday afternoon, all that I have read in this thread are Panerai lovers:

(a) saluting, high-fiving, confirming their mutual brotherhood;

(b) admitting they'll love it even if it's "rubbish" (not my word, please don't blame and attribute this to me); and

(c) admitting my view was right and that OP was a fashion brand all in jest of course;

instead of sharing what the spirit of PAM (as gloomis termed it) is all about. Then I see PAM lovers coming out from the closet in defence and giving the most oft-cited advice when another member shared his negative experience with his PAM111, even recommending he should be getting a rolex.

So, you can't really blame anyone if the discussion is heading no where right? And that is why we are still at where I left it with Hobbitt yesterday afternoon. I read in another thread where another member termed this discussion as silly. All that I can see is that I punctured a big globe of insecurity juice and that is spewing out with vengenace. Enough said friend, not only are we heading no where (contrary to what you wrote), reading the newspaper is getting more interesting....   

[Plankton-IkanBilis]

It's an open forum...things like these are bound to happen. Let's hope future entries in this thread retain the dignity and class which MWF deserves. Cheers!

[sooncheng1990]

It's an open forum...things like these are bound to happen. Let's hope future entries in this thread retain the dignity and class which MWF deserves. Cheers!

Bro, what happened? To me nothing happened. I like the information here.......people read it and know the pro and cons of PAM. Nothing wrong with that what...

Hey Endiku, I read all your comments, got class man your replies. I salute your bravery fighting all alone. But cannot say PAM = DKNY. Too extreme bro. But I respect your view still............. Very entertaining.

[sm]

Pls allow me to join in. I started to dabble into watches some 3 yrs back, jun in mwf.

My 1st encounter w pam was at the big watch shop at starhill(shifted). They have a display counter but mostly empty. We were told that stock is hard to come by. Being rare, my friend bought one pc at rm30K+.

Fast forward today, pam watches are readily available. I bought two pcs and have since sold the chunky metal 88(it didn't sit well), keeping the 183. I must admit the black seal is one of the most comfy watches alongside with the Rolex oyster casing.

I have attended the recent pam gtg. Pls allow me to pen my observation:

1. OP is a 50 years+ brand. Any company beyond that age usually lasts(unless technology changes like from film to digital-Kodak the victim). No qualms, OP is a serious watch manufacturer though some components maybe outsourced (cayenne and toureg shared the same platform)

2. It possesses  a clear DNA, the luminor, radiomir and submersible. In short, the ppl in OP has a roadmap for the future (AP retaining the DNA of the successful ROO, RO). As a result of that, the variation is confine strictly to the dial which serves them well. It is no fault of OP if the ppl spend  monies on straps; collecting straps has evolved into serious hobby (it may stunt the sales, one pam 5 straps)

3. OP is moving up the value chain by investing in in-house movement, complication and finishes and setting up stores to increase market presence. In this connection, I believe the operation and 'manufacturing' cost have also gone up. Hence we see more LE, SE and quantities of stocks everywhere.

4. LVMH, Richemont and Swatch are 3 major powerhouse in the fashion world. Be it as time keeping, tools, fashion, status symbol, gifts, collectors item etc, they will explore and exhaust all avenues to sell watches and help meet the annual sales target. "be it black or white, so long the cat catches the mouse". Balancing, leveraging, at all times between profit, sales and R&D. So wis, ristis and all- reality check; watches is an expensive indulgence.

5. The ristis have an unspoken camaraderie. Pam watches almost identical in design and known by numbers, there is unmistakable spirit of fellowship. They will banter about anything and everything from straps to double "11". They feel confident, urbane and 'man', majority below 40's. (in spore, cos of the dollars, they sport APROO for 'man'). Some will phase out(like me, just uncomfortable), new ones will be infected and it goes on. That is the name of the game, a passing phase perhaps; been there, seen it and done that, ya.

6. I reckon it will take a while for pam to be up there amongst the greats. It is very crowded in the USD10k+ market, the consumers are discerning and are demanding. You cannot give them a chunky metal with some SE/LE like "FU"(omg) and ask them to ride with you. There must be more refinement in details and a bigger A&P to do that, among others.

7. We can talk about the calibre or complication or what-have-you. In real life, the vast majority of watch purchasers are as ignorant of cars buyers. Ppl buy because of the brand, price, design colours and top up w some salesmanship. Yes, OP is a watchmaker that happen to cleverly seize that segment of the market.

8. Mwf has a lot of Pam fans, strangely for an independent forum. I have met some of them, likeable blokes and lads (pam gtg). I like to think that our bros msg is well intended. If I understand correctly, they do not wish to see our hard earned(for some, ya) monies depreciated if someday the novelty and euphoria wears off.(some say 'love is blind'). Say what we want on horology or history or product, once a brand premium wears off, it is difficult to push it up again( omega-tough to get it going above USD5k).

Because of the hype on pam in mwf, I think this thread is long overdue. So to the ristis, lets discuss on the topic and go not go overboard. I truly think that those on the other side really meant well.

Thank you.


 

[Enkidu]

8. Mwf has a lot of Pam fans, strangely for an independent forum. I have met some of them, likeable blokes and lads (pam gtg). I like to think that our bros msg is well intended. If I understand correctly, they do not wish to see our hard earned(for some, ya) monies depreciated if someday the novelty and euphoria wears off.(some say 'love is blind'). Say what we want on horology or history or product, once a brand premium wears off, it is difficult to push it up again( omega-tough to get it going above USD5k).

Because of the hype on pam in mwf, I think this thread is long overdue. So to the ristis, lets discuss on the topic and go not go overboard. I truly think that those on the other side really meant well.

Thank you.

Whilst I am not of the most noble character, please be assured that my comments are directed towards the virtue of the OP brand, not the panerai lovers themselves. So, yes, I agree with this statement.

To reply to Sooncheng - No, I got no class. A rough fellow wearing a sub / sinn / glashutte most of the days.

[hanz079]

Pls allow me to join in. I started to dabble into watches some 3 yrs back, jun in mwf.

My 1st encounter w pam was at the big watch shop at starhill(shifted). They have a display counter but mostly empty. We were told that stock is hard to come by. Being rare, my friend bought one pc at rm30K+.

Fast forward today, pam watches are readily available. I bought two pcs and have since sold the chunky metal 88(it didn't sit well), keeping the 183. I must admit the black seal is one of the most comfy watches alongside with the Rolex oyster casing.

I have attended the recent pam gtg. Pls allow me to pen my observation:

1. OP is a 50 years+ brand. Any company beyond that age usually lasts(unless technology changes like from film to digital-Kodak the victim). No qualms, OP is a serious watch manufacturer though some components maybe outsourced (cayenne and toureg shared the same platform)

2. It possesses  a clear DNA, the luminor, radiomir and submersible. In short, the ppl in OP has a roadmap for the future (AP retaining the DNA of the successful ROO, RO). As a result of that, the variation is confine strictly to the dial which serves them well. It is no fault of OP if the ppl spend  monies on straps; collecting straps has evolved into serious hobby (it may stunt the sales, one pam 5 straps)

3. OP is moving up the value chain by investing in in-house movement, complication and finishes and setting up stores to increase market presence. In this connection, I believe the operation and 'manufacturing' cost have also gone up. Hence we see more LE, SE and quantities of stocks everywhere.

4. LVMH, Richemont and Swatch are 3 major powerhouse in the fashion world. Be it as time keeping, tools, fashion, status symbol, gifts, collectors item etc, they will explore and exhaust all avenues to sell watches and help meet the annual sales target. "be it black or white, so long the cat catches the mouse". Balancing, leveraging, at all times between profit, sales and R&D. So wis, ristis and all- reality check; watches is an expensive indulgence.

5. The ristis have an unspoken camaraderie. Pam watches almost identical in design and known by numbers, there is unmistakable spirit of fellowship. They will banter about anything and everything from straps to double "11". They feel confident, urbane and 'man', majority below 40's. (in spore, cos of the dollars, they sport APROO for 'man'). Some will phase out(like me, just uncomfortable), new ones will be infected and it goes on. That is the name of the game, a passing phase perhaps; been there, seen it and done that, ya.

6. I reckon it will take a while for pam to be up there amongst the greats. It is very crowded in the USD10k+ market, the consumers are discerning and are demanding. You cannot give them a chunky metal with some SE/LE like "FU"(omg) and ask them to ride with you. There must be more refinement in details and a bigger A&P to do that, among others.

7. We can talk about the calibre or complication or what-have-you. In real life, the vast majority of watch purchasers are as ignorant of cars buyers. Ppl buy because of the brand, price, design colours and top up w some salesmanship. Yes, OP is a watchmaker that happen to cleverly seize that segment of the market.

8. Mwf has a lot of Pam fans, strangely for an independent forum. I have met some of them, likeable blokes and lads (pam gtg). I like to think that our bros msg is well intended. If I understand correctly, they do not wish to see our hard earned(for some, ya) monies depreciated if someday the novelty and euphoria wears off.(some say 'love is blind'). Say what we want on horology or history or product, once a brand premium wears off, it is difficult to push it up again( omega-tough to get it going above USD5k).

Because of the hype on pam in mwf, I think this thread is long overdue. So to the ristis, lets discuss on the topic and go not go overboard. I truly think that those on the other side really meant well.

Thank you.

A very very sensible reply.
I enjoyed reading it. Thanks 

[pexus]

When you think it's a fashion brand no matter how much facts and points we share, we cannot change you,unless you started this thread to look for inspiration, to convince yourself to buy a Panerai. Or else this discussion will heading no where.

Thanks for the entertaining sales pitch CK.

Since my discussion ended with Hobbitt yesterday afternoon, all that I have read in this thread are Panerai lovers:

(a) saluting, high-fiving, confirming their mutual brotherhood;

(b) admitting they'll love it even if it's "rubbish" (not my word, please don't blame and attribute this to me); and

(c) admitting my view was right and that OP was a fashion brand all in jest of course;

instead of sharing what the spirit of PAM (as gloomis termed it) is all about. Then I see PAM lovers coming out from the closet in defence and giving the most oft-cited advice when another member shared his negative experience with his PAM111, even recommending he should be getting a rolex.

So, you can't really blame anyone if the discussion is heading no where right? And that is why we are still at where I left it with Hobbitt yesterday afternoon. I read in another thread where another member termed this discussion as silly. All that I can see is that I punctured a big globe of insecurity juice and that is spewing out with vengenace. Enough said friend, not only are we heading no where (contrary to what you wrote), reading the newspaper is getting more interesting....

 Its strange..you initiated a thread., with a controversial topic (nothing wrong with that)... .....and to the credit of Pam owners and lovers, many of them came in and spend their time giving their opinion, many with matured reasonings.  And to be fair, majority of them responded to almost every point of discussion, no matter where it came from.

And what do we have at the end? These sort of replies from you, the TS. 

`...Pam lovers are now coming out of the closet....': fuyoo..they've been hiding? Not that I know of..

`..punctured a big globe of insecurity'.  Wow.....big words man....You started a topic and most fella here responded politely in support of the spirit of MWF's open discussion...and this is how you view it?   So every time i have a discussion with people and they respond with passion and facts, i just end it off by saying `I've punctured a big globe of insecurity'......cool...

`...Its more interesting to read newspaper'....yeah right....

`..Enough said/leave it as it is'...yep, you tend to use this tactic in middle of discussion when you won't/cant respond?

Not defending the brand or whatever. I dont own one (yet, maybe?) and will certainly be unable to contribute to what has already been said here by those who own a Panerai (be it with good or bad experiences).  But as a fellow MWF member following this thread, I dont think you should resort to such replies..

[mnazri.tan]

like it ....can afford it.....buy it....
be it a Q&Q watch selling for a gazzilion dollar....you can afford it, your money, do what ever you like..

risti love PAM for its rich history, unique design and the value they perceive on their own eyes....same goes with fan of rolex or whatever brand.....

what is the point of bashing this brand so bad, hurting the feeling of those who love the brand so deeply.....why why why? are we not here merely because of our love to the world of horology.....what with bashing the size as well....there are those whole love big watches...so what, none of them come to you asking for money......

peace and love bro....we are here because we are crazy about watches....just enjoy the varieties la....ok...

[sooncheng1990]

Its strange..you initiated a thread., with a controversial topic (nothing wrong with that)... .....and to the credit of Pam owners and lovers, many of them came in and spend their time giving their opinion, many with matured reasonings.  And to be fair, majority of them responded to almost every point of discussion, no matter where it came from.

And what do we have at the end? These sort of replies from you, the TS. 

`...Pam lovers are now coming out of the closet....': fuyoo..they've been hiding? Not that I know of..

`..punctured a big globe of insecurity'.  Wow.....big words man....You started a topic and most fella here responded politely in support of the spirit of MWF's open discussion...and this is how you view it?   So every time i have a discussion with people and they respond with passion and facts, i just end it off by saying `I've punctured a big globe of insecurity'......cool...

`...Its more interesting to read newspaper'....yeah right....

`..Enough said/leave it as it is'...yep, you tend to use this tactic in middle of discussion when you won't/cant respond?

Not defending the brand or whatever. I dont own one (yet, maybe?) and will certainly be unable to contribute to what has already been said here by those who own a Panerai (be it with good or bad experiences).  But as a fellow MWF member following this thread, I dont think you should resort to such replies..

Hey Bro, no need to flame it lar....... Endiku and Hobbitt had a good discussion...both parties said their views, then othersd also added. We can judge for ourselves what. Though I do not agree with Endiku, I also cannot agree with his opponents in some area....faIR what. I think both sides also did not answer some questions. and both side have been quite polite...no need to flame this again...adds to nothing....