Author Topic: Panerai Detonator  (Read 40126 times)

Offline TheHobbit

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3328
Re: Panerai Detonator
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2012, 01:07:29 AM »

Of course, one needs to exercise much discretion when dealing with all these claims. The more fantastic the claim, the more we need to check. This applies to all brands. Never believe everything that is nice, never disbelieve everything that is bad. The truth often lies somewhere in the middle. Where in the middle? Do some research with an open mind and from independent sources. Easy example is the claim "First Watch Worn on the Moon". The watch that went to the moon had the Cal.321 movement. The present moonwatch ref:3570, 3590 etc are powered by different movements, not the Cal 321. None of the watches produced by Omega since the 1980's have gotten any where near the moon. Omega will never openly tell you that.

It is true that most if not all watches or brands are a shadow of its former self, dependent on its past glory (true or otherwise). But where do we draw the line?

The current moon watch by Omega has never been on the moon, but it has been in space. It is the current iteration of a past model.
The current explorer is no longer the same as the explorer that went up Mount Everest, but a modern interpretation of it.
The current Panerai watches have never been to war but is a modern interpretation of its roots.
The current Breguet Type XX was never issued to the military, unlike its ancestors.
The Tudor Pelagos has its ancestors in the Snowflake of past that were issued to the French Military.
The current Daytona is not the same as the one worn by Paul Newman.
And the list goes on.

So if we remove all these, what are we left with? Do we buy watches based on current glory? Current news? Kobold does come to mind.....

People do buy watches based on history, or the want to be associated with past glories, the belief that it different, great perhaps. Some watches has horrible past, very unpopular, could not even sell. Suddenly a movie star is seen wearing one and the watch is popular and now fetch unbelievable prices and premium. But are the current offerings the same as its ancestors? Nope, the movement is no longer the same, among other things that have changed along the way. But should that be a reason not to get the watch? Do we doubt its capabilities? It is any less accurate or reliable?

Offline Enkidu

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1121
Re: Panerai Detonator
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2012, 05:31:30 AM »
So if we remove all these, what are we left with? Do we buy watches based on current glory? Current news? Kobold does come to mind.....

People do buy watches based on history, or the want to be associated with past glories, the belief that it different, great perhaps. Some watches has horrible past, very unpopular, could not even sell. Suddenly a movie star is seen wearing one and the watch is popular and now fetch unbelievable prices and premium. But are the current offerings the same as its ancestors? Nope, the movement is no longer the same, among other things that have changed along the way. But should that be a reason not to get the watch? Do we doubt its capabilities? It is any less accurate or reliable?

I see that CK has moved this discussion away from the original thread, and fearing the discussion could be explosive, he titled the new thread Panerai Detonator  :D :D.

I believe what we are discussing here is the historical claims and history of a brand /watch and how to differentiate between what the watch company wants us to believe and what is the truth. Often when we discuss the history or the historical claims made by a brand, the discussion drifts to buying. OK, let's call it "acquiring" or "acquisition" because buying is only one of the many ways you can get your hands on a watch you like. The act of acquiring the watch is only the cause or result of (among many other reasons) knowing the actual history of the brand. That is, you acquire the watch because you discovered that the watch indeed played a part in human history. Conversely, after acquiring a watch, you got interested in its history and the history of the company and you started digging the truth. Or it could be a combination of both if you are acquiring multiple pieces having the same brand. The economics of buying behaviour are discussed in tons of books, the issue here however is how to distilled the truth from the myth, legends, pseudo-history perpetuated by watch companies and the armies of fanboys (OK, OK, sensitive word, should be used sparingly). Mixing these 2 issues will lead to nowhere, like catching the wind I'm afraid.

You can only acquire what's in the present. If you love the past, get a vintage piece. Too expensive? Save up for it and wait for the right piece to come along. But whatever your buying decsion, it should not stop you from finding out the truth. It's only natural to think of such issues if you are a WIS - like "I think therefore I am" -that I am able to wonder whether I exist, proves that I do exist, hence that I am able to wonder these issues rove that I am a WIS. If you do not, then you are reduced to being a fanboy ( :laugh: sorry, cannot find a better word).

Now, back to the question of why many PAM watches do not have minute markers. These watches were intended for under water use. Perhaps underwater and also under the belly of a ship. In such dim surrounding, minute markers are not visible anyway. If you need to read the minute markers, you need to drag along a big clock. So they omitted the minute markers. In the tough wartime economy, both sides cut corners as much as they could, and omitting the minute markers made sense. Just my theory.

And unless someone can clearly present exactly and logically how the panerai watches without minute markers can be used to "time the activation of explosives" and how this logically fits in with explosives can only "be set to nearest half hour or hour", then this thing about using panerai watches to set dangerous explosives and detonators mst also be exiled to the realm of myths and nonesense. The Italian soldiers were incompetent but I guess they were not careless with their own lives. In fact, history shows they were quite careful with their lives, preferring to surrender when the odds are bad and perhaps give away their panerais as war booty. Just my theory.  ;D

Offline TheHobbit

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3328
Re: Panerai Detonator
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2012, 07:14:22 AM »
To me, there is a need to separate the collectors, fan boys and the brand itself. Once we can do that, we progress to identify what is true and what is not.

As for collecting vintage watches, the cost, the minefield of Franken watches and fakes.... Enough to scare off many a potential collector. So a modern interpretation of the original is much welcomed. If not, many watch companies would not be around anymore, more so that one that does not seem to issue anything new but more of the same year after year.

As for why Panerai watches does not have the minute markers, yes, less is good. And you hit the nail on the head. Perhaps it is wrong to say that the design is based on the detonator, perhaps inspired by its simplicity? Maybe even the other way around. Anyway be it what it is, the watches were produced to the requirements of the Italian navy at the time. Perhaps it was their requirement that the dial be as simple as possible and as clear as possible? Who knows unless we can find the exact specs the navy put up.

As for using a watch without minute markers to activate and time an explosive. Why not? Activate it to the nearest 5 minutes and start. Set it up to detonate in half an hour. Swim away. You can activate the detonator at 1005, and have it go off at 1035. You have half an hour to swim away.

As for the detonator itself, I am waiting for a couple of responses. Hope these people respond and perhaps bring light to the device itself. One of the people I wrote to actually has one for sale. Just a recap, it looks like it is a 10 hour detonator/ timer, stainless steel, electro-mechanical with a 9 days mechanical backup.

Offline takashi78

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4745
Re: Panerai Detonator
« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2012, 07:42:25 AM »
Where are the PAM experts in MWF who can shed more light?

Offline hanz079

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2381
  • I is Rocks!!
    • WATCHIONABLE
Re: Panerai Detonator
« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2012, 07:43:57 AM »
Where are the PAM experts in MWF who can shed more light?
Sadly to say, I don't think there's anymore PAM experts.
When push comes to shove... none to be seen... so much for hardcore.
Terrenceterrence "seriously, i think buying a watch for it's secondhand value is like getting married and thinking about divorce at the back of your mind."


watchionable.blogspot.com

Offline Enkidu

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1121
Re: Panerai Detonator
« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2012, 08:44:33 AM »
As for using a watch without minute markers to activate and time an explosive. Why not? Activate it to the nearest 5 minutes and start. Set it up to detonate in half an hour. Swim away. You can activate the detonator at 1005, and have it go off at 1035. You have half an hour to swim away.

As for the detonator itself, I am waiting for a couple of responses. Hope these people respond and perhaps bring light to the device itself. One of the people I wrote to actually has one for sale. Just a recap, it looks like it is a 10 hour detonator/ timer, stainless steel, electro-mechanical with a 9 days mechanical backup.

Not being an expert on explosives etc, we can only speculate how (if at all) the panerai watches were used for such purpose. But soldiers & sailors surely do more than just planting explosives and swimming and running away. And the Italians were definitely not the only ones planting explosives and swimming and running away.

So, one way to look at this matter is of course looking at other military issue watches from that period. From the pics I have seen most if not all german issue watches with the AS 1130 movement whether to the Heer (with DH marking) and the Kriegsmarine (with the KM marking) have minute markers. Likewise for the British and American Hamilton issued watches.

Without minute markers, the use of the watch becomes limited. It only tells time to the exact minute 12 times every hour. Because if the minute hand is between 05 and 10 minute marks, then scientifically, you can only say the time is between XXo'clock 5 minutes and XXo'clock 10 minutes. Not very precise I am afraid.

And why do you need a 9 day mechanical backup for a detonator that will go off in 10 hours max?????? Where can we find this information?   

Offline Godzillaz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 910
Re: Panerai Detonator
« Reply #31 on: November 01, 2012, 09:31:50 AM »
Where are the PAM experts in MWF who can shed more light?

I'm afraid PAM expert won't be of any help. "PAM" is the designated for the use of naming model of post vendome era.

A WW weapon like this is going into the another area of GPF altogether. GPF is the name Panerai use during the WW and early post war era.

Whether GPF really make these device all on their own is also up to debate. I would rather think GPF as an assembler of sort. Meaning they buy/order bits and pieces of what they need and build the device they need to fulfill the military order.

They are not really a manufacturer of sort in the modern sense.

That leaves the debate whether all the parts that went into these device actually serve a purpose. Maybe they are just leftover of what have been strip out. The true is we lack official document to make a sure statement.

No help from Panerai because Richemont sold that part of the business and together with all the records.

Regards
Tyler

Offline Enkidu

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1121
Re: Panerai Detonator
« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2012, 09:49:51 AM »
Where are the PAM experts in MWF who can shed more light?

Be patient Pete, once the discussion shifts to leather straps, ammo straps, painted dial, sandwich dial, patina (who can forget this?)..etc you will get more contributions and pics posted. Be patient.... ;D

Offline Godzillaz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 910
Re: Panerai Detonator
« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2012, 10:13:34 AM »
Where are the PAM experts in MWF who can shed more light?

Be patient Pete, once the discussion shifts to leather straps, ammo straps, painted dial, sandwich dial, patina (who can forget this?)..etc you will get more contributions and pics posted. Be patient.... ;D

I actually agree with you on this. However unwilling I am but honestly it's the truth.

Only about 20% of the Panerai collector goes into the history Panerai. It's about the same for Rolex. Who cares the Explorer I never really make it to Mount Everest or all the modern rolex no longer make by human but machine.

One thing for sure. When the fanboys so show up. I can count on you to be there as well.

Regards
Tyler

Offline TheHobbit

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3328
Re: Panerai Detonator
« Reply #34 on: November 01, 2012, 11:00:28 AM »
As for using a watch without minute markers to activate and time an explosive. Why not? Activate it to the nearest 5 minutes and start. Set it up to detonate in half an hour. Swim away. You can activate the detonator at 1005, and have it go off at 1035. You have half an hour to swim away.

As for the detonator itself, I am waiting for a couple of responses. Hope these people respond and perhaps bring light to the device itself. One of the people I wrote to actually has one for sale. Just a recap, it looks like it is a 10 hour detonator/ timer, stainless steel, electro-mechanical with a 9 days mechanical backup.

Not being an expert on explosives etc, we can only speculate how (if at all) the panerai watches were used for such purpose. But soldiers & sailors surely do more than just planting explosives and swimming and running away. And the Italians were definitely not the only ones planting explosives and swimming and running away.

So, one way to look at this matter is of course looking at other military issue watches from that period. From the pics I have seen most if not all german issue watches with the AS 1130 movement whether to the Heer (with DH marking) and the Kriegsmarine (with the KM marking) have minute markers. Likewise for the British and American Hamilton issued watches.

Without minute markers, the use of the watch becomes limited. It only tells time to the exact minute 12 times every hour. Because if the minute hand is between 05 and 10 minute marks, then scientifically, you can only say the time is between XXo'clock 5 minutes and XXo'clock 10 minutes. Not very precise I am afraid.

And why do you need a 9 day mechanical backup for a detonator that will go off in 10 hours max?????? Where can we find this information?

Well, hope the people who knows (I hope) replies my email. Then I will update on the device.

As for the watch being limited in use, perhaps that is why it is issued to the divers, Italian, Germans and Egyptians. The other branches of the military use other suppliers.

The funny thing is, the initial batch of watches, reference 3646 with the California dial had the minute markers. Only the later reference 3646 with the 3,6,9,12 dial did not have the markers. We can only speculate as to why this happened.

Offline TheHobbit

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3328
Re: Panerai Detonator
« Reply #35 on: November 01, 2012, 11:08:30 AM »
Patina? The bane of Rolex, and now Panerai. Now spreading to other brands as well.....

As for the painted dial and sandwich dial, perhaps one day we will get into that discussion....

Offline takashi78

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4745
Re: Panerai Detonator
« Reply #36 on: November 01, 2012, 11:46:21 AM »
Dont get me started on the "fake" patina.
I say let it age naturally.

Although for modern watches this aint gonna happen.

Offline dpkong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2832
Re: Panerai Detonator
« Reply #37 on: November 01, 2012, 03:32:48 PM »
Patina? The bane of Rolex, and now Panerai. Now spreading to other brands as well.....

As for the painted dial and sandwich dial, perhaps one day we will get into that discussion....

Patina? I hope to God that doesn't happen to any of my watches. I'd have to sell it off cheaply then. What use is lume that doesn't work and looks like breadcrumbs?

 :Laughing_on_floor:

Offline Kennypane

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 384
Re: Panerai Detonator
« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2012, 04:17:58 PM »
Hi guys. Interesting thread. Haha. Why suddenly talk about Panerai detonator? Or was it minute markers. I won't buy a Radiomir if it has minute markers. Cos it won't look cool. Not fashionable with minute markers. I won't buy Rolex if it does not come with minute markers. I buy Rolex because of hmmm for practical reasons it is the most accurate when it comes to watch brands.

Eh why u all take Panerai so seriously. It is not the perfect watch. To spill the beans I just sent my Radiomir for repair as it's under warranty. Wore for less than a year the winding stem and the setting lever kaputed. Damaged. And then last evening when I was drinking it received fresh dings and scratches. Hurt a bit but well our cars also receive same scratch and dents and they cost 10 times as much.

Anyways just my rambling. Enkidu still not getting any Panerai? It's a fund watch. Very simple watch and fun to wear. Girls like them. It's a chick magnet.

Offline Kennypane

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 384
Re: Panerai Detonator
« Reply #39 on: November 01, 2012, 04:18:55 PM »
I meant fun NOT fund.

Offline Enkidu

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1121
Re: Panerai Detonator
« Reply #40 on: November 01, 2012, 07:12:50 PM »
I meant fun NOT fund.

Helloooooooooo...of course we know it's a fun watch. Of course we know Panerai cannot be taken seriously. What do you think I have been saying all these while??  But watch out, your idol Master Hobbit (a.k.a The Supreme Guardian Angel of the House of PAM) may be swooping down on you pretty soon to explain why PAM is considered a fun watch. Don't look at me!!  ;D ;D

And Kenny, I am so sorry you got a lemon. Let me see, first it was Felix's PAM, then Sooncheng's PAM, then....., ......, now yours. Hmmmm.....looks like there is a whole orchard of PAM lemons out there, all within the past 2 months. But not really surpirising. Lemon is an essential ingredient in mediterranean cooking.

And thanks for sharing your story. What can I say?? Maybe I'll just say what the ristis always say:

Bro, you just earned my full respect, I salute you!!! 

:Cheers: :Cheers:  :Dancing_banana: :Dancing_banana: :Dancing_banana:

Offline Kennypane

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 384
Re: Panerai Detonator
« Reply #41 on: November 01, 2012, 07:54:06 PM »
I bought one to try to understand the craze and madness surrounding Panerai. I have read fully the history and how Panerai came about. I guess I am not passionate enough as other owners of Panerai. But it's ok if they are and I respect that. actually my Speedmaster had to be sent in for repair during warranty 6 years ago. The stop lever had a problem during winding. To be fair sometimes it's luck. And u know what, Rolex has it's problems too. My Explorer I the "9" was slightly detached from the dial, floating. So sent it to RSC and they did it for free. They had to I guess. It took them only 10mins. Remove bezel and sapphire and fixed the "9".

Offline TheHobbit

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3328
Re: Panerai Detonator
« Reply #42 on: November 01, 2012, 08:22:57 PM »


Eh why u all take Panerai so seriously. It is not the perfect watch. To spill the beans I just sent my Radiomir for repair as it's under warranty. Wore for less than a year the winding stem and the setting lever kaputed. Damaged. And then last evening when I was drinking it received fresh dings and scratches. Hurt a bit but well our cars also receive same scratch and dents and they cost 10 times as much.


Interesting to note that you have had this problem. Was the problem the winding crown or the winding stem and setting lever? Others have had problems with the crown, once you pull out to time setting mode, it is difficult to push the crown back in. Did you have the same issue?

Offline TheHobbit

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3328
Re: Panerai Detonator
« Reply #43 on: November 01, 2012, 08:26:34 PM »
I meant fun NOT fund.

Helloooooooooo...of course we know it's a fun watch. Of course we know Panerai cannot be taken seriously. What do you think I have been saying all these while??  But watch out, your idol Master Hobbit (a.k.a The Supreme Guardian Angel of the House of PAM) may be swooping down on you pretty soon to explain why PAM is considered a fun watch. Don't look at me!!  ;D ;D

And Kenny, I am so sorry you got a lemon. Let me see, first it was Felix's PAM, then Sooncheng's PAM, then....., ......, now yours. Hmmmm.....looks like there is a whole orchard of PAM lemons out there, all within the past 2 months. But not really surpirising. Lemon is an essential ingredient in mediterranean cooking.

And thanks for sharing your story. What can I say?? Maybe I'll just say what the ristis always say:

Bro, you just earned my full respect, I salute you!!! 

:Cheers: :Cheers:  :Dancing_banana: :Dancing_banana: :Dancing_banana:

Dpkong,

What was it that was lacking in this thread?

Offline pexus

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 734
Re: Panerai Detonator
« Reply #44 on: November 01, 2012, 08:37:51 PM »
Hobbit wont dare claim the title Supreme Guardian Angel of Pam yet...He has to complete the task thrown to him which is

to produce a WWII Italian navy frogman that actually participated in a mission.  Even that also, must produce birth cert and pull another Italian frogman out of the hat to verify story..

 :Laughing_on_floor:

sorry, cant resist...my amateurish interpretation of the direction of the discussion so far
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 08:43:10 PM by pexus »
`Learning to appreciate my watch as a tool, and not some fancy branded jewelry'

Offline hanz079

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2381
  • I is Rocks!!
    • WATCHIONABLE
Re: Panerai Detonator
« Reply #45 on: November 01, 2012, 08:44:06 PM »
Aaaaarrgghhh!! Does this mean in order to verify Felix's recent stratosphere jump wearing a Zenith Stratos, someone have to jump with him in tandem as proof?
Noooooooo.....  :Startled:
Terrenceterrence "seriously, i think buying a watch for it's secondhand value is like getting married and thinking about divorce at the back of your mind."


watchionable.blogspot.com

Offline pexus

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 734
Re: Panerai Detonator
« Reply #46 on: November 01, 2012, 08:49:08 PM »
Aaaaarrgghhh!! Does this mean in order to verify Felix's recent stratosphere jump wearing a Zenith Stratos, someone have to jump with him in tandem as proof?
Noooooooo.....  :Startled:

Like you Hanz, i was over the moon seeing Felix did the jump...but now... :'(..all hopes came crashing down to earth...
...unless there was another co-jumper... :o
Also, did Felix showed you his birth cert before he jump?

« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 08:51:21 PM by pexus »
`Learning to appreciate my watch as a tool, and not some fancy branded jewelry'

Offline Enkidu

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1121
Re: Panerai Detonator
« Reply #47 on: November 01, 2012, 09:39:35 PM »
Aaaaarrgghhh!! Does this mean in order to verify Felix's recent stratosphere jump wearing a Zenith Stratos, someone have to jump with him in tandem as proof?
Noooooooo.....  :Startled:

Actually, after all the excitement and drooling over the Stratos (like a rabid Zenith fanboy) that day, it did cross my mind...hey what if that fellow was wearing a mock up plastic band pretending it was a stratos? Did anyone actually verify the watch immediately before the jump and immediately after he landed? I guess not. Even if he was wearing a real Zenith Stratos, did anyone check it was still working when he landed? I guess not. Zenith may have screwed up their once in 150 years chance to glory. So, in 50 years' time, some Zenith cynic (probably a ZENKIDUT) will be askng these probing questions irritating his fellow forum members...

So Hanz you are not going to get your Stratos anymore?   

Offline Enkidu

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1121
Re: Panerai Detonator
« Reply #48 on: November 01, 2012, 09:48:56 PM »
Aaaaarrgghhh!! Does this mean in order to verify Felix's recent stratosphere jump wearing a Zenith Stratos, someone have to jump with him in tandem as proof?
Noooooooo.....  :Startled:

Like you Hanz, i was over the moon seeing Felix did the jump...but now... :'(..all hopes came crashing down to earth...
...unless there was another co-jumper... :o
Also, did Felix showed you his birth cert before he jump?

No need lah. For all we care, it could be PEXUS jumping. The question is whether the watch actually accompanied whoever that jumped and was still working when he landed. In the panerai scenario, asking for his birthcert or passport was just to verify he is indeed Emilio Bianchi and since it was a clandestine mission (unlike FB's well televised jump with Zenith printed on his suit and his ground crew wearing Zenith) how can we know he was / wasn't even wearing a swimming trunk unless his mate verifies for him?  :laugh:   

Offline Kennypane

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 384
Re: Panerai Detonator
« Reply #49 on: November 01, 2012, 09:49:53 PM »


Interesting to note that you have had this problem. Was the problem the winding crown or the winding stem and setting lever? Others have had problems with the crown, once you pull out to time setting mode, it is difficult to push the crown back in. Did you have the same issue?
[/quote]

It was fine until sometime in August. Pull out crown to adjust the time afterwhich push crown back in, cannot feel the "click" sound. That's when I realized something was wrong. Worse still, when screw lock the crown, u can feel metal grinding sound. Parts have to be ordered and replaced for stem banking and lever setting jumper.