Author Topic: Officine Panerai - Just a fashion house??  (Read 170200 times)

Offline TheHobbit

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Re: Officine Panerai - Just a fashion house??
« Reply #150 on: September 13, 2012, 08:17:42 PM »

In my views, unless Panerai

1. gets off the poor beaten horse of the Italian Navy watch history
2. gets it's own in-house movement in order (read as do more R&D)
3. comes up with some new innovative designs for watches instead of just 'limited editions" of the same

it will remain, in my view, as just a "fashion brand".

Dpkong:

1. I agree with you on this. Perhpas it is time to let people know about the work they do with Mike Horn, restoration work on the Eileen, indirect (perhaps time to get directly involved) work with Malaysian Artist Eng Tay on charitable work with children and the unfortunate....
2. Anything wrong with their in house movements? Any examples?
3. Have you seen the following models:

PAM00396
PAM00275
PAM00319
PAM00348
PAM00350
PAM36500

With regards to the SE/LE I do agree with you.

Offline pexus

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Re: Officine Panerai - Just a fashion house??
« Reply #151 on: September 13, 2012, 08:59:57 PM »
Hobbs...
I always hear people associate Panerai with DNA, easy to read, oversized, historical and now, fashion  ;D
Am however, attracted to your statement of it being a tool watch.  You own quite a handful of Pams and you dont look like someone that treat watches as safe-queens.  Keen to hear your experiences on Panerai as a proper tool watch...
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 09:02:16 PM by pexus »
`Learning to appreciate my watch as a tool, and not some fancy branded jewelry'

Offline hanz079

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Re: Officine Panerai - Just a fashion house??
« Reply #152 on: September 13, 2012, 09:14:41 PM »
Looks like this thread has cooled down abit... which is nice and now the real information is coming out rather than the "fanboy" inspired angry replies.
Every brand is bound to have haters... and also fans...
If all the fans or ristis that you guys are so affectionately called can act with enough class and patience... this thread would only be 3 pages long packed with info...
I do hope that this is the direction of this thread from now on as I am really wanting to know more and also to whomever following this thread... with all the info, you'll never know... you guys might even rope in some new ristis!!
Terrenceterrence "seriously, i think buying a watch for it's secondhand value is like getting married and thinking about divorce at the back of your mind."


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Offline JPSP

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Re: Officine Panerai - Just a fashion house??
« Reply #153 on: September 13, 2012, 09:19:12 PM »
After reading the comments...i've to agree with TS. my experience with Pam is limited. my 120 and then 88 (nothing to shout about really). I've done some research before i bought my first pam many years ago. pam wasn't this hot and the community of followers was rather small but real diehard fans (from my lurking in network55).

If we look at the motivations behind any watch purchase, we can somehow identify that we buy for several reasons or how we assess brand/make A vs brand/make B when we've limited disposable income. The following are common driving factors:

1. History
2. Movement
3. Aesthetics
4. Reliability
5. Cost/perception of value/affordability
6. Positioning of the brand

History - Pam doesn't have as rich a history as a dive watch compared to BP FF/Rolex

Movement - while it's encouraging and a positive sign that the brand is investing heavily in developing/improving in-house movement, the finishing isn't fantastic and there's nothing to shout about their 3,8,10 days power reserve. Just look at Lange's 31 days power reserve and Rebellion T-1000's 41 days power reserve and these are what i call "know-how"

Aesthetics - probably the first to have a crown guard that makes it an instant hit and recognizable from far...led the trend of 44mm and has a positive spill-over effect on strapmakers' businesses...a pam "character" is largely determined by but not limited to size, patina, sandwich dial, manual/auto movement, 1950 casing, power reserve and the customized straps that owners match them.

Reliability - well, i say pammy has reliable movements similar to many other brands eta/valjoux/selita/inhouse. but they're not exceptional. perhaps all watch brands have been claiming reliability and each has met the minimum industry standard.     

Perception of value/cost/affordability - very subjective so i'll leave this out

Positioning - Pam is largely seen as a tool watch. not the dress watch kind...so we should "evaluate" it as that...i remember when i ask if i should get a rose gold version in MWF, i'd replies from sifus here that pammy is not a dress watch and rose gold makes it somewhat "weird"..just like i don't understand why must BP FF has a rose gold version or in future Sinn has a white gold Sinn 1?

If we look at the above points that attempt to illustrate a typical consumer behaviour, we can then see that Pammy, as a tool/dive watch, fares generally well in all aspects but scores very high on aesthetics. My definition of a fashion brand is one brand that consumer can recognize instantly, with generous marketing budgets, commonly owned because people spend on them to "show off" that they can afford it or simply joining the mainstream flow.

Is Rolex a fashion brand then? i say no...

With reference to the Rolex thread, rolex is one weird company that take their time when it comes to innovation and they don't take the "limited edition" route unlike their competitors. A very clean cut, confident, right at your face strategy that is based on the strong belief in their brand equity/loyalty. I admire their innovativeness...whenever they introduce something new...it tends to be very well-thought out...their glidelock clasp, parachom springs, green gold dial for LVc, maxi dial for legibility and etc...in terms of history, they go way back..remember the debate about whether rolex or blancpain holds the claim of being the first diving watch?

Yes i think pammy is a fashion brand now but evolving to become a serious manufacture. That's why they're trying hard to steer clear of that by investing in in-house movements. many made guesses years ago that pam was just a fad and won't last but some forgot that "some fashion becomes classic" (like LV monogram) and Pam have proven many wrong. I think we've yet to see the best from pam...till then...

 

Offline dpkong

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Re: Officine Panerai - Just a fashion house??
« Reply #154 on: September 13, 2012, 09:26:27 PM »

....

This is where Panerai marketing sometimes fail in my opinion. Perhaps driven by their collectors and fan boys, the mantra of 47 is the new 44. Panerai does offer watches in other sizes, 40 and 42 mm. You may want to consider these watches. True be told that there will be people who will come and tell you why? 40 and not 44. Well, you have to ask yourself, are you buying for yourself or to satisfy others? I have a white dial Panerai. That is the second ultimate doom in the panerai world, the first being a 40 mm white dial panerai. I don't really care because I like the watch.

....


To be really honest, I did at one time get very interested in a 40mm white dial Panerai. But upon more reading of the brand and many posts about the quality and "hype", I decided to pass on it. Especially when many "ristis" seem to consider this an "outcast".

Now with more information coming along, the interest is somewhat renewed. Now if there was a 40mm white dial powered by the Zenith El Primero...

Offline TheHobbit

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Re: Officine Panerai - Just a fashion house??
« Reply #155 on: September 13, 2012, 09:34:04 PM »
Hobbs...
I always hear people associate Panerai with DNA, easy to read, oversized, historical and now, fashion  ;D
Am however, attracted to your statement of it being a tool watch.  You own quite a handful of Pams and you dont look like someone that treat watches as safe-queens.  Keen to hear your experiences on Panerai as a proper tool watch...

Pexus,

Hahaha the watches have had a hard life. I got my first panerai in 1999. At that time, the ad was begging anybody who showed an interest in the watch to buy it. Lots of ad (no boutiques at that time) did not want to carry the brand back then. Panerai had to rely on big daddy to get these ad to sell the watches. Anyway, I like the watch and as with any watch that I had, I wore it to work and after hours. Pretty stupid back then. Thought what the hell, anything happen to the strap (rubber), can change to leather. After all got two straps.

Rubber and leather don't go well with many fluids. Oil, hydraulic fluids, toilet water, coke (the drink) etc. I actually went thru 3 leather straps and 1 rubber strap. And that was on one watch. When I got my second, I rotated watches, but even then.....

Best part of all was to get replacement straps from Panerai. It was like, what replacement straps? Have to order, don't know when can get. Back then, 2000/2001, independent strap makers did not exist. Getting a replacement strap was close to impossible. When one of the collectors realised that there was an biz opportunity in making straps, it was like a god send.

I still have the scars and nicks and dents and scratches on my panerai watches. Since retirement, the only scratches or damage it gets is when going back to Malaysia and the airport taxi you are in gets into an accident and while you are helping the driver, your watch gets struck and slammed by the boot of the taxi. The dent is still there, a reminder of my trip and the accident the taxi was in.

Now, most of them rest in a watch box waiting for the day when it can see some action again.

Offline pexus

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Re: Officine Panerai - Just a fashion house??
« Reply #156 on: September 13, 2012, 09:41:28 PM »
Hobbs...
I always hear people associate Panerai with DNA, easy to read, oversized, historical and now, fashion  ;D
Am however, attracted to your statement of it being a tool watch.  You own quite a handful of Pams and you dont look like someone that treat watches as safe-queens.  Keen to hear your experiences on Panerai as a proper tool watch...

........At that time, the ad was begging anybody who showed an interest in the watch to buy it. Lots of ad (no boutiques at that time) did not want to carry the brand back then.....

Gosh.....such times actually existed? And No independent strap makers around?   
Sounded like the days when the dodo bird was still around ....  ;D
`Learning to appreciate my watch as a tool, and not some fancy branded jewelry'

Offline TheHobbit

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Re: Officine Panerai - Just a fashion house??
« Reply #157 on: September 13, 2012, 09:47:28 PM »

To be really honest, I did at one time get very interested in a 40mm white dial Panerai. But upon more reading of the brand and many posts about the quality and "hype", I decided to pass on it. Especially when many "ristis" seem to consider this an "outcast".

Now with more information coming along, the interest is somewhat renewed. Now if there was a 40mm white dial powered by the Zenith El Primero...

Don't think there is a white dial 40 mm white dial zenith power PAM. There is a black dial version. I understand it is pretty robust.

Offline chrisyen

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Re: Officine Panerai - Just a fashion house??
« Reply #158 on: September 13, 2012, 10:06:57 PM »
Pam is a fashion watch?

Hell Yes!!!
But Which brand not a fashion watch???

Come on! U buy rolex bcoz it tells time?
So many bling bling Rolex... Not a fashion watch?
Then y so many Color in watches?

Offline Kennypane

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Re: Officine Panerai - Just a fashion house??
« Reply #159 on: September 13, 2012, 11:27:28 PM »

[/quote] The one with the soldered lugs was Rolex produced pocket watch sold to Panerai to be made into wrist watches in the mid 30"s till end of 40"s . correct me if I'm wrong .regards tony
[/quote]

You are right Tony. How to change straps on soldered lugs. U have to destroy the strap and sew back a new one. They have to modernised the watch case design subsequently, for the modern world.

Offline Kennypane

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Re: Officine Panerai - Just a fashion house??
« Reply #160 on: September 13, 2012, 11:52:32 PM »
This thread very powerful. Why I say that? It has evoked many emotions and burnt much energy and calories just reading all this replies. It was started by the Firestarter. Well Firestarter did not really start a fire but merely thought it was a fashion house / brand. Then I added something too. Then came Zameen, I have seen and read his passions for PAMs. Hobbit / Ivan had a hard time consolidating his collection to full PAMs. Then u also have Gloomis. Tyler and his MM and MN, lovely beasts! Chris Yen nd his 210, nice watch. Then came words like "junk" being thrown on to the fire. See? We have passionate people here so with a bit of respect for others emotions and right choice of words, everyone can share more easily and discuss more easily. I will never never call another persons watch whether a 50 dollar quartz watch or a PAM 372 on his wrist a junk cos there are reasons why they have these watches on their wrist whether to tell time or not. Respect, people. Maybe MWF can have another category called Trash Talk for members to clear rubbish from their mouths. Just kidding. Take it easy people.

Offline gloomis

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Re: Officine Panerai - Just a fashion house??
« Reply #161 on: September 14, 2012, 06:16:37 AM »
well.....everyone have their own preference and can comments on any others brands.

So i urge all risti just be with it and let's have party fun in our own party where 3rd MYristi GTG is just around the corner. Let's party hard

Offline fidoneo

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Re: Officine Panerai - Just a fashion house??
« Reply #162 on: September 14, 2012, 06:50:02 AM »
well.....everyone have their own preference and can comments on any others brands.

So i urge all risti just be with it and let's have party fun in our own party where 3rd MYristi GTG is just around the corner. Let's party hard

Yeah.. :thumbsup:

Cheers
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A combination of handguns with timepieces

Offline nuartogel

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Re: Officine Panerai - Just a fashion house??
« Reply #163 on: September 14, 2012, 07:23:10 AM »
Shall we try a different approach on this thread? Maybe a categorization...

Panerai = not DKNY, marc jacobs, adidas, nautica, etc etc

Panerai = not Jaeger Lecoultre, Audemars piguet, Vacheron constantin, etc etc

Panerai = Chopard, Montblanc, Cartier, IWC, etc etc (some outsourced movements, some inhouse)

I may be incorrect about the data stated, but more diplomatic and statistic approach i guess. Then we can put or not put OP in a fashion house category, which i dont think i can.

Thanks

« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 08:04:57 AM by nuartogel »

Offline landyshah

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Re: Officine Panerai - Just a fashion house??
« Reply #164 on: September 14, 2012, 08:38:35 AM »
Senor Hobbit - As alwaysa a pleasure reading your well articulated view on the brand and its watches. Thus we both have certain points in agreement and certain that are not. That is WiSdom  :) As for Enicar - can talk anytime, check out Sherpa Series to start with.

As I leave this thread, i recall a couple of the key statements as my main takeaways:

Starting off with:

"The focus of this thread is the brand. We discuss the pros and cons of the brand. If we can't do that just because commenting on the brand will hurt the feelings of the supporters of the brand, then what's the purpose of this forum??"

And then:

"hey, I might even agree and sell em all to get the brands that you consider non trash."

"Some of our collections here are even worth more than your house or ride young man'"

"dont simply comment where it will hurt others feeling."


And in conclusion:

"Whether we feel ridiculed or slighted is purely up to us, and should not blame the anger on comments made by others. The anger might have come because we do not have security within ourselves and feel that there is some truth in what was said....it is the owners of Panerai that seem to portray the brand as a fashion statement"


Q.E.D. Have a great weekend all !


Offline Enkidu

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Re: Officine Panerai - Just a fashion house??
« Reply #165 on: September 14, 2012, 10:04:16 AM »
Pam is a fashion watch?

Hell Yes!!!
But Which brand not a fashion watch???

Come on! U buy rolex bcoz it tells time?
So many bling bling Rolex... Not a fashion watch?
Then y so many Color in watches?

Hey Chris, if anything I think our discussions helped increase traffic in this forum quite a bit man, I am sure we surpassed Timezone by light years. Any prizes for all of us at the next GTG? Pleeeeaaaaseeee.................... :Praying: :Praying: :Praying:



Offline chrisyen

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Re: Officine Panerai - Just a fashion house??
« Reply #166 on: September 14, 2012, 10:40:14 AM »
Pam is a fashion watch?

Hell Yes!!!
But Which brand not a fashion watch???

Come on! U buy rolex bcoz it tells time?
So many bling bling Rolex... Not a fashion watch?
Then y so many Color in watches?

Hey Chris, if anything I think our discussions helped increase traffic in this forum quite a bit man, I am sure we surpassed Timezone by light years. Any prizes for all of us at the next GTG? Pleeeeaaaaseeee.................... :Praying: :Praying: :Praying:

Mwf is still privately own... No income just out come
I hope the owner heard u ...
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 08:20:01 PM by chrisyen »

Offline Godzillaz

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Re: Officine Panerai - Just a fashion house??
« Reply #167 on: September 14, 2012, 10:42:41 AM »
Well would you respond well when some one start a thread asking about a certain brand that you are passionate about by calling its owner name like fanboys, ,buying the watch as strong fashion statements, young people who want to appear bold and confident?

Do you still want to share passionately what you know and come to love about the brand after all that name calling?

I did and what do I get. Denial and more name calling.

I got disturb when the whole thread turn into poster having a field day at making fun of the owner of panerai watch. I try asking others to be more polite and sensitive.

What's the respond? something like what's the point of this forum if I can't openly express what I feel. Those expression sound more like Criticism to me. When we state our counter points, again with the ignorance and name calling.

Does this sound like a discussion to you. Can you blame others for being upset?

The sole reason I'm writing this post because I believe there are others who are genuinely here to learn about the brand. I don't want them to be misled.

I'm tired of being taking advantage as a target but instead leaving the post and say the hell to all this. I stay on because most of what being said here of Panerai is wrong. Even some of the info from the official website is not accurate. 

That's why I find interesting about the brand. The true gems are hidden and it takes times to dig. Most ppl couldn't be bother that included most of the panerai owner.

Why? because is hard and time consuming. It's what this hobby is all about reading and finding more about the watch we love or don't know about.

I know I'll get another blast from this post so it will probably be my last post on this thread.

I'll leave you this. No brand have more variable of movement in their watches than Panerai. Not Rolex, Glashutte Original, Lange, Omega, PP, AP or JLC. I owned all of the above except Glashutte Original. If you care to find out. I'll post something in the future. It's far from being a low grade movement overprice watch. However it's not exactly Haute Horology either. The brand is weird, frustrating but not without charm

Regards
Tyler

PS I have an Enicar as well, a SherpaJet GMT from the 70s. It's a tough little cookie  :D   


Senor Hobbit - As alwaysa a pleasure reading your well articulated view on the brand and its watches. Thus we both have certain points in agreement and certain that are not. That is WiSdom  :) As for Enicar - can talk anytime, check out Sherpa Series to start with.

As I leave this thread, i recall a couple of the key statements as my main takeaways:

Starting off with:

"The focus of this thread is the brand. We discuss the pros and cons of the brand. If we can't do that just because commenting on the brand will hurt the feelings of the supporters of the brand, then what's the purpose of this forum??"

And then:

"hey, I might even agree and sell em all to get the brands that you consider non trash."

"Some of our collections here are even worth more than your house or ride young man'"

"dont simply comment where it will hurt others feeling."


And in conclusion:

"Whether we feel ridiculed or slighted is purely up to us, and should not blame the anger on comments made by others. The anger might have come because we do not have security within ourselves and feel that there is some truth in what was said....it is the owners of Panerai that seem to portray the brand as a fashion statement"


Q.E.D. Have a great weekend all !
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 11:51:13 AM by Godzillaz »

Offline JPSP

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Re: Officine Panerai - Just a fashion house??
« Reply #168 on: September 14, 2012, 11:44:00 AM »
Well would you respond well when some one start a thread asking about a certain brand that you are passionate about by calling its owner name like fanboys, ,buying the watch as strong fashion statements, young people who want to appear bold and confident?

Do you still want to share passionately what you know and come to love about the brand after all that name calling?

I did and what do I get. Denial and more name calling.

I got disturb when the whole thread turn into poster having a field day making fun of the owner of panerai watch. I try asking others to be more polite and sensitive.

What's the respond? something like if what's the point of this forum if I can't openly express what I feel. Those expression sound more like Criticism to me. When we state our counter points, again with the ignorance and name calling.

Does this sound like a discussion to you. Can you blame others for being upset?

The sole reason I'm writing this post because I believe there are others who are genuinely here to learn about the brand. I don't want them to be misled.

I'm tired of being taking advance as a target but instead leaving the post and say to hell of all this. I stay on because most of what being said here of Panerai is wrong. Even some of the info from the official website is not accurate. 

That's why I find interesting about the brand. The true gems are hidden and it takes times to dig. Most ppl couldn't be bother that included most of the panerai owner.

Why? because is hard and time consuming. It's what this hobby is all about reading and finding more about the watch we love or don't know about.

I know I'll get another blast from this post so it will probably be my last post on this thread.

I'll leave you this. No brand have more variable of movement in their watches than Panerai. Not Rolex, Glashutte Original, Lange, Omega, PP, AP or JLC. I owned all of the above except Glashutte Original. If you care to find out. I'll post something in the future. It's far from being a low grade movement overprice watch. However it's not exactly Haute Horology either. The brand is weird, frustrating but not without charm

Regards
Tyler

PS I have an Enicar as well, a SherpaJet GMT from the 70s. It's a tough little cookie  :D   


Senor Hobbit - As alwaysa a pleasure reading your well articulated view on the brand and its watches. Thus we both have certain points in agreement and certain that are not. That is WiSdom  :) As for Enicar - can talk anytime, check out Sherpa Series to start with.

As I leave this thread, i recall a couple of the key statements as my main takeaways:

Starting off with:

"The focus of this thread is the brand. We discuss the pros and cons of the brand. If we can't do that just because commenting on the brand will hurt the feelings of the supporters of the brand, then what's the purpose of this forum??"

And then:

"hey, I might even agree and sell em all to get the brands that you consider non trash."

"Some of our collections here are even worth more than your house or ride young man'"

"dont simply comment where it will hurt others feeling."


And in conclusion:

"Whether we feel ridiculed or slighted is purely up to us, and should not blame the anger on comments made by others. The anger might have come because we do not have security within ourselves and feel that there is some truth in what was said....it is the owners of Panerai that seem to portray the brand as a fashion statement"


Q.E.D. Have a great weekend all !

Tyler, well said...we should all try to be civil in our approach..sometimes we disagree to agree..

There're a few forums that i truly enjoy my stay..MWF being one of them...but the forum that gives me the most laughs is TZ-UK...they're blatant, crude, direct and rude at times but yet funny and lively. everyone takes criticisms or disagreements with a pinch of salt and with lots of humour..

If i may, i don't think Pam has the most varied movements compared to some of the brands you mentioned. Pam probably have 60 different movements but JLC has more.

http://people.timezone.com/msandler/JLC/JLC-calibres.pdf

It'll be interesting to find out who's the most varied movements..but i must say you've brought out a good point that Pam indeed has a lot of different movements...something that even i've missed out. 
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 11:46:13 AM by JPSP »

Offline chrisyen

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Re: Officine Panerai - Just a fashion house??
« Reply #169 on: September 14, 2012, 12:35:37 PM »
I strongly believe jlc technical gang design pam movement...
So jlc or pam hv more movement???
Richemont own it still!

Offline tonykpk

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Re: Officine Panerai - Just a fashion house??
« Reply #170 on: September 14, 2012, 02:00:20 PM »
To date JLC created about 1000 types of movements , dating back to 170 yrs. (over 1.5 century). correct me if I'm wrong. regards tony..
I strongly believe jlc technical gang design pam movement...
So jlc or pam hv more movement???
Richemont own it still!

Offline JOS2012

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Re: Officine Panerai - Just a fashion house??
« Reply #171 on: September 14, 2012, 09:12:03 PM »
I'll leave you this. No brand have more variable of movement in their watches than Panerai. Not Rolex, Glashutte Original, Lange, Omega, PP, AP or JLC. I owned all of the above except Glashutte Original. If you care to find out. I'll post something in the future. It's far from being a low grade movement overprice watch. However it's not exactly Haute Horology either. The brand is weird, frustrating but not without charm

Regards
Tyler



Hi Tyler,
Would really appreciate more information on this..
Are you talking about variables in movements made by Panerai or more varied movements sourced from 3rd parties and used in Paneraiā€¦.
I'm always curious about watches with quality in-house movements, the more the better...

Personal taste and preferences evolve over years, hopefully not 1 full circle otherwise it means we haven't learnt a single thing.

Offline dpkong

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Re: Officine Panerai - Just a fashion house??
« Reply #172 on: September 14, 2012, 09:13:38 PM »

There're a few forums that i truly enjoy my stay..MWF being one of them...but the forum that gives me the most laughs is TZ-UK...they're blatant, crude, direct and rude at times but yet funny and lively. everyone takes criticisms or disagreements with a pinch of salt and with lots of humour..



 :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:

I too hope we can see that here.

Offline Enkidu

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Re: Officine Panerai - Just a fashion house??
« Reply #173 on: September 14, 2012, 09:21:53 PM »
Mwf is still privately own... No income just out come
I hope the owner heard u ...

You mean Danny?? I am not too hopeful then.  :Blue:

He is a PAM fan for sure.......suspect he could be quietly scheming to get back at me already.  ;D ;D ;D

Offline Godzillaz

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Re: Officine Panerai - Just a fashion house??
« Reply #174 on: September 14, 2012, 09:53:48 PM »
Sorry for the confusion.

I mean variable as in different category of movement as in minute repeater, chronograph, tourbillon, manual wind, auto,  integrated, modular ... etc

JLC does have more calibre but majority of them are reverso, ultra thin and alarm movement which I categorize into 3 or maybe 4 categories.

ie

1. Reverso Manual (there more than 20 movement in this category but most of them are the same basic time only model)
2. Ultrathin Manual
3. Manual Alarm
4. Auto Alarm

Above just over simplify version to show and by no means an extensive list.

Regards
Tyler