Post by: Enkidu on September 10, 2012, 06:37:43 PM
It has always been my opinion that Officine Panerai is not a watchmaking company but a just fashion house like DKNY, Dior, ...etc.
Panerai watches are all more about looks + aesthetics. Panerai lovers' obsession with the leather straps and the multitude of companies making straps for these watches partly support this view. When the watches do not come with see-through casebacks, I have seen photos of the movement underneath being not just undecorated, but downright raw and rough. This is evidence that the company is more concerned about cosmetics than the actual performance of the watches themselves (considering the movement is the heart of a watch). Companies like Stowa and Steinhart (or even Sea-Gull) have more self-respect than these Italians.
Considering their sizes, they look awkward as dress watches. Whilst some models have rotating bezel for diving, the majority don't - hence although these watches are claimed to be rated to 300m, they are practically useless as diving watches. In fact, it is not entirely clear which genre these watches belong to, except that they function as strong fashion statements for young people who want to appear bold and confident.
Their sale strategy (with countless special editions) shows they are not in the business of making good watches, but are here to play with human emotions and lust for exclusivity.
Let the discussion begin!!!
Post by: TheHobbit on September 10, 2012, 07:08:14 PM
Other watch brands may come with leather straps, but is the strap change easy and is it fool proof? Are the tools provided? What are the chances of you damaging or scratching the case or losing the spring bars in the process? Could these be the reasons that prevent or hinder other companies or the owners from changing the straps or bracelets? Could it be the fact that the watches are traditionally fitted with metal bracelets and not leather straps be a reason and the opposite true for panerai?
Post by: hanz079 on September 10, 2012, 07:14:07 PM
10 years ago, I would very much like to own one.
But now, at the current prices and the milking of SE and flipper taxes and artificial drumming up of demand at p.com, I would stay away for now.
Perhaps when the brand implode and when the dust settles, they will realise that Panerai is actually meant as cult tool watches and not what they are trying to position now. Which is pricing above Rolex.
Of course if the demand is there, they will flourish... but to me... it's a bubble waiting to burst.
Real collectors are slowly moving themselves away from the brand and now demand is mostly supplied with young noob money.
No problems there actually.
As to are they a fashion brand? I would have to say no.
Straps are only an extension of the enjoyment of Panerai watches and not meant to be viewed as a fashion accessory.
But I do understand where you're coming from.
I myself have seen small wrist (ladies even) strapping 47mm pams and to me they look ridiculous, comical even... but as long as the wearer's enjoying it, who am I to disagree.
Now before I put on my flame jacket, I have no intention of starting a flame war.
Whatever stated above is my opinion and mine alone.
I have friends that own multitude of pams and are proud... good... more power to them
Do I want one? Maybe... if sensibly priced.
Exclusivity is one thing but I am sure that we all have seen things being overpriced as the demand is still there only to implode when things go too far and left unchecked. Will Panerai be one? Only time will tell.
Post by: sm on September 10, 2012, 07:17:25 PM
Honestly I think mwf is one of the few blogs(or the only one except paneristi blog) that elevates the status of panerai to being 2nd to Rolex(the recent voting) in the same category. Now that is serious matter in any independent watch forum.
Tq
(i have two but since sold one. Keeping the black seal)
Post by: pexus on September 10, 2012, 07:33:16 PM
But why an enigma then? I just love the looks and appearance of the watch.....No Brad Pitt or Roger Federer face in the magazines for a Panerai ad..No happy family wearing the watch running through the meadows...No picture of a sexy model with a low V cut ......
All we have is just the name and the watch dominating the advertisement pages... Why? I think Officine knows..the luminor/radiomir casing. the simple 3,6,9..markers, the sandwich, straps....they just have their own unique ways of luring people who like watches...
Personally, I wont label them as fashion house..because to be fair to them, they just sell watches. Enigmatic watches...
Post by: dpkong on September 10, 2012, 07:36:00 PM
1. They all look the same.
2. They're mostly too large (for me that is).
3. I fail to understand the rave and rant on a strap.
4. They're pricing themselves above Rolex and I do wonder if that is realistic.
Post by: JPSP on September 10, 2012, 07:44:53 PM
No love for Panerai at all (or yet??).
1. They all look the same.
2. They're mostly too large (for me that is).
3. I fail to understand the rave and rant on a strap.
4. They're pricing themselves above Rolex and I do wonder if that is realistic.
actually i can't keep up with Pam...sometimes the models look the same and i wonder at times how one can recognize this model from that?
Post by: Enkidu on September 10, 2012, 07:45:01 PM
Basically let's address the strap issue. The basic design of the watch in itself allows for an easy change of the strap. Best of all, the watches (most) comes with the tools to facilitate the strap change. The new quick change mechanism offers, name sake, quick change and reduces the chance of scratching or damaging the watch case in the process. Even the old screw type system, makes it easy to change straps. So, does this make the watch a fashion brand?
Other watch brands may come with leather straps, but is the strap change easy and is it fool proof? Are the tools provided? What are the chances of you damaging or scratching the case or losing the spring bars in the process? Could these be the reasons that prevent or hinder other companies or the owners from changing the straps or bracelets? Could it be the fact that the watches are traditionally fitted with metal bracelets and not leather straps be a reason and the opposite true for panerai?
The ease of changing strap and tools being provided are in fact evidence that this is just a fashion watch. It lends the message that the owner is expected will be changing the strap often, not so much as to suit different use, but the desire to change the strap more frequently than the lifespan of the leather strap to suit his desired look and mood. Tools are therefore provided. It's a bit like those colourful fashion watches from Benetton in the 1990's with DIY bezels and strap change to suit the wearer's T-shirt.
Post by: TheHobbit on September 10, 2012, 07:48:44 PM
The ease of changing strap and tools being provided are in fact evidence that this is just a fashion watch. It lends the message that the owner is expected will be changing the strap often, not so much as to suit different use, but the desire to change the strap more frequently than the lifespan of the leather strap to suit his desired look and mood. Tools are therefore provided. It's a bit like those colourful fashion watches from Benetton in the 1990's with DIY bezels and strap change to suit the wearer's T-shirt.
As are the lug holes on a Rolex? Much easier, even with a toothpick......
Post by: Enkidu on September 10, 2012, 08:06:12 PM
As are the lug holes on a Rolex? Much easier, even with a toothpick......
Yes, it's easy on the old Rolex with the lug holes. But (like you admitted yourself earlier above) no tools provided (except for the older SD) and the fear of scratches and losing spring bar. Rolexes (except the Prince and Cellini) all come in metal bracelets. Even with the lug holes, owners are afraid of scratching the watch when removing the end-pieces. Remember that the older end pieces all have "legs" pressing against the lugs unlike the SEL of present. More importantly, Rolexes are just not designed to be worn on leather straps. The PAMs are entirley the opposite. They are meant to be worn on leather straps. OP (being Italian) understands the allure of the romantic leather with its multitude of texture and colour, unlike the durable but monotonous metal bracelet.
Post by: TheHobbit on September 10, 2012, 08:17:08 PM
As are the lug holes on a Rolex? Much easier, even with a toothpick......
Yes, it's easy on the old Rolex with the lug holes. But (like you admitted yourself earlier above) no tools provided (except for the older SD) and the fear of scratches and losing spring bar. Rolexes (except the Prince and Cellini) all come in metal bracelets. Even with the lug holes, owners are afraid of scratching the watch when removing the end-pieces. Remember that the older end pieces all have "legs" pressing against the lugs unlike the SEL of present. More importantly, Rolexes are just not designed to be worn on leather straps. The PAMs are entirley the opposite. They are meant to be worn on leather straps. OP (being Italian) understands the allure of the romantic leather with its multitude of texture and colour, unlike the durable but monotonous metal bracelet.
As you rightly said, panerai are designed to be worn with leather straps. The fact that the tools are provided (or not) does not mean that the owners will change the straps earlier or will change it constantly. We cannot infer that the easy or availability of straps makes a watch a fashion brand, don't you agree?
Post by: Enkidu on September 10, 2012, 08:18:00 PM
I would have to start by saying Panerai is actually very rich with history.
Only a history of supplying watches (fitted with movements made by others) EXCLUSIVELY if I remember correctly to the Italian military who lost big time in the war.
Post by: Enkidu on September 10, 2012, 08:24:02 PM
As you rightly said, panerai are designed to be worn with leather straps. The fact that the tools are provided (or not) does not mean that the owners will change the straps earlier or will change it constantly. We cannot infer that the easy or availability of straps makes a watch a fashion brand, don't you agree?
The strap issue is just one of the few factors I cited in my post above. Going back to the rich history of OP brought up by Hanz, how many Panerai lovers actually know about the history BTW? Anyone care to guess??
Post by: ckcspice on September 10, 2012, 08:33:41 PM
Post by: hanz079 on September 10, 2012, 08:38:45 PM
Glad you bring up the history part.As you rightly said, panerai are designed to be worn with leather straps. The fact that the tools are provided (or not) does not mean that the owners will change the straps earlier or will change it constantly. We cannot infer that the easy or availability of straps makes a watch a fashion brand, don't you agree?
The strap issue is just one of the few factors I cited in my post above. Going back to the rich history of OP brought up by Hanz, how many Panerai lovers actually know about the history BTW? Anyone care to guess??
Previously on p.com... there were tons of knowledge about Panerai history.
They were helpful ppl... whatever info you needed is all there... just ask.
Now? After the fiasco of the mods making use of their position to milk their own SE... long time Panerai purists have left.
Some are not happy with the direction of the brand.
Serious collectors have lost their love for the brand and felt that the real Panerai lovers are being marginalised.
Now, it is all about who have the the latest models, the hardest to get SE and the game that they play hunting pieces down.
Not my kind of game.
And regarding to your question of how many Panerai lovers actually know about their history? Not many at this day and age I'm afraid.
Post by: TheHobbit on September 10, 2012, 08:46:59 PM
I would have to start by saying Panerai is actually very rich with history.
Only a history of supplying watches (fitted with movements made by others) EXCLUSIVELY if I remember correctly to the Italian military who lost big time in the war.
Winning or losing a war does not impact the brand, Seiko, Lange, iwc, tutima, and lots of other brands were in the war, makes no difference to me. The owners of the brands were proud to support the campaign (rightly or wrongly), their calling at that time. If we were concerned about the war, would you be driving a ford or wearing that Hugo boss suit?
Anyway, the watches were also issued to the Germans, and not limited to watches, but compasses, dive gauges, timing and firing devices, flash lights, sights, ship clocks....
Post by: Enkidu on September 10, 2012, 08:52:12 PM
Glad you bring up the history part.
Previously on p.com... there were tons of knowledge about Panerai history.
They were helpful ppl... whatever info you needed is all there... just ask.
Now? After the fiasco of the mods making use of their position to milk their own SE... long time Panerai purists have left.
Some are not happy with the direction of the brand.
Serious collectors have lost their love for the brand and felt that the real Panerai lovers are being marginalised.
Now, it is all about who have the the latest models, the hardest to get SE and the game that they play hunting pieces down.
Not my kind of game.
And regarding to your question of how many Panerai lovers actually know about their history? Not many at this day and age I'm afraid.
Hi, Hanz,
You are right. The sentiment I get when following the panerai fora is people going to GTGs only to show off SEs, unique straps, straps with numbers penned on them etc....How many really talked about the movement underneath?
Just to add another dimension to the discussion, Seiko's 9s64 movement conveys 72hrs of power using one barrel. The PAM372 (at 47mm, dwarfing the GS) requires 2 barrels for its 3-day power reserve. Both are manual winding movements. OK, this is probably an inaccurate comparison, but my point is OP is a company rich not in technical know-how but fashion and marketing know how.
Post by: pexus on September 10, 2012, 08:56:05 PM
Post by: Enkidu on September 10, 2012, 08:57:07 PM
I would have to start by saying Panerai is actually very rich with history.
Only a history of supplying watches (fitted with movements made by others) EXCLUSIVELY if I remember correctly to the Italian military who lost big time in the war.
Winning or losing a war does not impact the brand, Seiko, Lange, iwc, tutima, and lots of other brands were in the war, makes no difference to me. The owners of the brands were proud to support the campaign (rightly or wrongly), their calling at that time. If we were concerned about the war, would you be driving a ford or wearing that Hugo boss suit?
Anyway, the watches were also issued to the Germans, and not limited to watches, but compasses, dive gauges, timing and firing devices, flash lights, sights, ship clocks....
Fully agree with you, I only brought it up to show OP has nothing to be proud of in that department either if they choose to go that route.
Post by: tonykpk on September 10, 2012, 08:58:46 PM
Post by: hanz079 on September 10, 2012, 09:01:21 PM
After all that has been said.. I still do not think Panerai is a fashion brand.
They did design watches specifically for the Italian Navy... for their diving use...
So, there are SOME technical know how there.
Just not movements... but since now with so much money being pumped in by their parent company... anyone can come up with an in-house movement.
Wether they are technically superior or not, only time will tell.
But I would have to agree that now, their marketing know how is really good... coupled that with fanatical ristis... winning combo there.
Post by: hanz079 on September 10, 2012, 09:03:59 PM
I guess falling in love with a watch first before digging up facts and history to educate yourself with the legacy of the brand is a normal path...no?You got a point there... ;D
Post by: Enkidu on September 10, 2012, 09:12:34 PM
Loo,
After all that has been said.. I still do not think Panerai is a fashion brand.
They did design watches specifically for the Italian Navy... for their diving use...
So, there are SOME technical know how there.
Just not movements... but since now with so much money being pumped in by their parent company... anyone can come up with an in-house movement.
Wether they are technically superior or not, only time will tell.
But I would have to agree that now, their marketing know how is really good... coupled that with fanatical ristis... winning combo there.
It's a bit like Maoism in the 1960's China I'm afraid. Fanatism and cult marketing. A fleeting fashion statement to appear "cool" and connected with those who look "cool". Mostly youngsters. But we all know what happened to Maoism after 1976. It just imploded and people started doing lots of soul searching to explain the irrationality.
Post by: TheHobbit on September 10, 2012, 09:16:28 PM
Just to add another dimension to the discussion, Seiko's 9s64 movement conveys 72hrs of power using one barrel. The PAM372 (at 47mm, dwarfing the GS) requires 2 barrels for its 3-day power reserve. Both are manual winding movements. OK, this is probably an inaccurate comparison, but my point is OP is a company rich not in technical know-how but fashion and marketing know how.
Let's see, Seiko as we know it started making movements in 1957, panerai 2005?
Seiko first to market with chronograph movement, but popular chrono movement zenith and eta....
Being good in marketing does not make a fashion brand, nor is it a crime. Any mid market Swiss brand with 72 hours power reserve on a single barrel?
If we consider technological know how, sadly lots of Swiss brands would be at the losing end, and that includes Rolex. Great and serious watchmaker? Seiko. Why? Look at all the advancements they have, beat COSC standards, high beat movements, etc. what do they lack? Marketing.
Post by: Enkidu on September 10, 2012, 09:25:26 PM
Let's see, Seiko as we know it started making movements in 1957, panerai 2005?
Seiko first to market with chronograph movement, but popular chrono movement zenith and eta....
Being good in marketing does not make a fashion brand, nor is it a crime. Any mid market Swiss brand with 72 hours power reserve on a single barrel?
If we consider technological know how, sadly lots of Swiss brands would be at the losing end, and that includes Rolex. Great and serious watchmaker? Seiko. Why? Look at all the advancements they have, beat COSC standards, high beat movements, etc. what do they lack? Marketing.
And why did OP only started making its own movement in 2005?
Look Hobbit, I am afraid you are just dissecting the facts and not addressing the issue as a whole.
Post by: Enkidu on September 10, 2012, 09:28:20 PM
Being good in marketing does not make a fashion brand, nor is it a crime.
I never said it does.
Post by: nuartogel on September 10, 2012, 09:40:03 PM
i dont think they're fashion house brands... the people who buys them because they see other people bought them, might be thinking otherwise
they're not guess or DKNY
anyway... im NEUTRAL... peace ;D
Post by: Plankton-IkanBilis on September 10, 2012, 09:42:35 PM
However, it all boils down to the owner conglomerate's business philosophy...a "fashion house watchmaker"...quite possible.
Let's give them another 5 years...maybe we can clearly see which path they plan to take.
Some 10 years ago, I had my skepticism about Franck Muller despite it being the flavour of the "day~month~only a few years"...as for Panerai, my sentiments (personal) are the same. Eventhough I have never owned one despite being offered several times a decade ago, I honestly hope that Pannerai's substance prevail instead of just hype.
In a perfect world, it would be great to get comments and views from the people at Anomino - read up to those who don't know the link between Anomino and Panerai.
Post by: chrisyen on September 10, 2012, 09:49:30 PM
Nah... After Richemont took over, they goreng history!
Jus few watches by rolex also rich history? Information misled u brother...
Now a manufacture ? Err... I think they borrow jlc designer from their group design for them... So end up big movement small balance... Imbalance! big tool watch look, But fragile dress watch type of movement
Poor finishing? True n false
The old handwind movement is well finished! But not by them .., soprod modify it!
Y gd finishing? Eta 6497 ugly bridge been changed, rhodium plated, blue screw, perlage on base plate, bevel on bridges edge, beautiful big swan neck....
Current manufacture movement - ugly small balance, ugly bridges n finishing...
But is it a fashion watch? y r u arguing this?
Rolex watch not a fashion? U use it to dive? Tell u time? Green hulk, gv, diamond, yellow gold.... Rolex make much more bling bling model than pam...
All watches is fashion watch... Even the seiko 5 hv hundreds design to show ur different character....
Pam good looking? Subjective... If it sing for u then beautiful lor...
Pam all look the same? If u not following then definitely...
So as rolex... But if u fell in live, wording put below 12 or above 6 also different, gold Gand or black hand?
Rolex boy some more tell u Metre first or feet first... Red Color sub cost u double... Double red cost u... Heaven!!!
Post by: sm on September 10, 2012, 09:58:36 PM
In that Rolexland(HK), it stl has a lot of legwork to accomplish to b amongst the leading brand. BTw, HK has replaced US as the biggest importer of swiss watches(probably cos of chinaland).
Tq
Post by: TheHobbit on September 10, 2012, 10:00:10 PM
Why 2005? Perhaps it is time to move up the food chain? Time for it to be a manufacture? Already got the funds? Got the factory? Who knows?
The basic thing is, we have to decide what do you mean fashion brand? Successful marketing? Strap change? Poor movement quality? Ok, one mistake, bad one at that with the pam318. At least they offered to change the movement? Would other companies have done the same? Who know? Did Rolex do the same which the faded explorer II white dial that because yellow? Did they offer to change the dials that cracked in the submariner? I don't know if they did.
So to say that Panerai is a fashion brand because of their success in milking he public in general, I say no, just good if not great marketing.
To me a fashion brand is one that gets someone else to make their watches, like Hugo boss or nautica or Adidas. A company that makes its own movement, regardless good or bad, it's own cases, have a design team, factory, and even makes and design for other brands, Ferrari and even montblanc can't be a fashion brand. It may not be the best at making watches, but it is for sure not a fashion brand.
At least it tries. New movements, new complication, new cases, new materials, etc. successful or not, at least it tries. You have to give it that. At least it does not sit on past glories, contented and continue to curn out the same thing over and over again, good or great as it may be. That to me is a sign of a true and great watchmaker. Take the risk, try something new, explore, go where no man has gone before. How many watch companies are doing that now? Yes it helps that you have the support of the parent company, deep pockets, strong (cult) customer base and able to milk it for what it is worth. That is no crime. That is good marketing.
So is Panerai a fashion brand? Nope, far from it.
Post by: Enkidu on September 10, 2012, 10:53:34 PM
To me a fashion brand is one that gets someone else to make their watches, like Hugo boss or nautica or Adidas. A company that makes its own movement, regardless good or bad, it's own cases, have a design team, factory, and even makes and design for other brands, Ferrari and even montblanc can't be a fashion brand. It may not be the best at making watches, but it is for sure not a fashion brand.
At least it tries. New movements, new complication, new cases, new materials, etc. successful or not, at least it tries. You have to give it that. At least it does not sit on past glories, contented and continue to curn out the same thing over and over again, good or great as it may be. That to me is a sign of a true and great watchmaker. Take the risk, try something new, explore, go where no man has gone before. How many watch companies are doing that now? Yes it helps that you have the support of the parent company, deep pockets, strong (cult) customer base and able to milk it for what it is worth. That is no crime. That is good marketing.
So is Panerai a fashion brand? Nope, far from it.
I say OP is a fashion house because it's more concerned with the cosmetics than the performance of the watch. Please go to my 1st post above. Chris bamboozled us with lots of facts, but let me just answer that Seiko does not sell the Seiko 5 because of its cosmetics per se, the fives are known to be very sturdy and reliable watches (with its own in-house movement) for the price we pay. Rolex makes lots of bling bling, but these are bling bling with very very reliable in-house movements. Likewise, Seiko also has lots of Bling bling in its credor line & dolce line, but that again is complemented by super movements.
The fact that OP is attempting to move up the food chain by having its own movement is no doubt encouraging, but that does not detract (still) from the fact that the company appears more concerned with the dial, colour of its patina etc than what's within. And purchasers are more concerned with which strap suits the patina & whether he is the only fella in the whole of Malaysia having that particular piece than what's within.
Post by: TheHobbit on September 11, 2012, 12:09:36 AM
I say OP is a fashion house because it's more concerned with the cosmetics than the performance of the watch. Please go to my 1st post above. Chris bamboozled us with lots of facts, but let me just answer that Seiko does not sell the Seiko 5 because of its cosmetics per se, the fives are known to be very sturdy and reliable watches (with its own in-house movement) for the price we pay. Rolex makes lots of bling bling, but these are bling bling with very very reliable in-house movements. Likewise, Seiko also has lots of Bling bling in its credor line & dolce line, but that again is complemented by super movements.
The fact that OP is attempting to move up the food chain by having its own movement is no doubt encouraging, but that does not detract (still) from the fact that the company appears more concerned with the dial, colour of its patina etc than what's within. And purchasers are more concerned with which strap suits the patina & whether he is the only fella in the whole of Malaysia having that particular piece than what's within.
Enkidu,
You hit the nail right on the head. Panerai does exactly what Rolex or Seiko does. With a robust eta/Unitas movement powering the watch, allows it to play with the presentation, ie the dial, the hands, etc. How does this make Panerai a fashion brand? Panerai has always used outside movements to power it's watches,from Rolex / corterbert to angelus to eta to Unitas to zenith to well the list goes on. All good and reliable engines. Introducing its own movement is just the next logical step. Again the new movements are reliable, robust and strong. And again, the focus moves to presentation, offering what it's customers want, information gathered via relevant sites. How is this different from any other brands? Are you saying the movements are not reliable?
Functionality? Well, you have watches from the historic range the looks and feels like the watches Panerai issued long time ago. Is it functional? Must be since it was used by the divers back in the day and those did not have the dive bezel as well. Want something more contemporary? Something that looks more like the divers that you are familiar with with the diving bezel and all? Just look at the contemporary collection, look at the submersible. Look at the depth gauge watches. They do what they are suppose to do. Powered by the reliable and robust 7750p1, what else is there for Panerai to do? Focus on the presentation, ie dial and whatever else. Does that make it a fashion brand?
Just because the company appears to focus on presentation, does not make it a fashion brand.
Just because the people who buys Panerai watches are focused on getting special straps to match the patina, does not make Panerai a fashion brand. That is the buyer. The only thing Panerai can be guilty of is that it can focus on the presentation and deliver what the customer wants and in most cases it tells the customer what they want. There is a need to separate buyer and seller.
So an interesting question, if Rolex customers are focused on getting nice straps, does that make Rolex a fashion brand? No because it has a superior in house movement? If Rolex decides to issue a watch with ecru lume (faux patina), does it make Rolex a fashion brand? No, because it has a superior in house movement? Or no because it appears that it is not focusing on appearance?
Rolex introduced the new explorer II with the so called floating hand effect. Guess what, little brother did it better with the pelagos. Rolex introduced a host of watches in Basel 2012, but guess what, little brother took the excitement away. Perhaps it is time for Rolex to focus a bit more on appearance. But wait, that would make it a fashion brand.........
Post by: G.MAC on September 11, 2012, 03:53:49 AM
Post by: Enkidu on September 11, 2012, 07:11:43 AM
Panerai does exactly what Rolex or Seiko does. With a robust eta/Unitas movement powering the watch, allows it to play with the presentation, ie the dial, the hands, etc. How does this make Panerai a fashion brand? Panerai has always used outside movements to power it's watches,from Rolex / corterbert to angelus to eta to Unitas to zenith to well the list goes on.
My only reaction to your above shocking statement is best explained by a quote I read many years ago. To quote the great physicist Wolfgang Pauli - Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch - Not only is it not right, worse, it's not even wrong. On the one hand you argue that Panerai does exactly what Seiko and/or Rolex does, and on the other you claim that Panerai has always been sourcing movements from outsiders so that they could concentrate on the presentation. Or have you probed the inverse, that they have been sourcing for movements from outside because all they want is to concentrate on the presentation. I have nothing more to add about their woeful (or perhaps just half-hearted) attempt on making its own movement. Just go to Chris's posting above.
To be fair, PAM is not the only company indulging in cosmetics - brands like B&R, Longines, Breitling etc all come to mind. But PAM stands out on a league of its own. At least B&R and Breitling try (OK, maybe a little too boastful and unsuccesfully) to link itself to some performance indicia - aviator's professional watches. But PAM?? - patina, strap, sandwich dial..... Need I say more on this sunny Tuesday morning?
Additional notes: I suspect some members may wish to rebut that Rolex boys are also concerned about patina, gilt dial, metre first dial etc. My argument here is not concerned about collectability of a pre-owned piece and Rolex certainly did not make watches with golden patina.
Post by: Enkidu on September 11, 2012, 07:21:36 AM
Evolving to meet the market demand does not in any way make it a fashion brand. It is just smart business.
I am not sure if anyone here has said evolving to meet market demand will make PAM a fashion brand. Neither did anyone say it's not smart business.
Post by: pexus on September 11, 2012, 07:40:34 AM
Evolving to meet the market demand does not in any way make it a fashion brand. It is just smart business.
I am not sure if anyone here has said evolving to meet market demand will make PAM a fashion brand. Neither did anyone say it's not smart business.
Endiku..no offense but...
`company is more concerned about cosmetics than the actual performance of the watches themselves'
`I say OP is a fashion house because it's more concerned with the cosmetics than the performance of the watch'
I think these statements (that OP is a company that is very concerned about cosmetics....) is not very different from claiming that they are evolving to meet market demand. IF OP is truly interested in cosmetics (appearance, style, exterior) ..then its logical to assume that they will have to change to meet what consumers want...
or do we need quote from Charles Darwin to understand the true meaning of evolving?
Post by: TheHobbit on September 11, 2012, 07:53:12 AM
'Rolex makes lots of bling bling, but these are bling bling with very very reliable in-house movements. Likewise, Seiko also has lots of Bling bling in its credor line & dolce line, but that again is complemented by super movements.'
'Panerai has always been sourcing movements from outsiders so that they could concentrate on the presentation.'
Panerai has always sourced movement from outside, what ever the reason, they are the only ones that knows. But the movement they source have always been reliable and robust. With this problem solved, this allows panerai to then focus on the presentation. Is this not he same as the above, as what Seiko and Rolex does with the bling?
'Or have you probed the inverse, that they have been sourcing for movements from outside because all they want is to concentrate on the presentation'
Conjecture?
Even if this is true, how does this make Panerai a fashion brand? Would it not be much like Rolex or Seiko, putting a good reliable engine, solving the performance issue, to focus on the presentation?
Patina, strap, sandwich dial..... Evolving to meet market demands and smart business.....
Post by: Enkidu on September 11, 2012, 08:21:41 AM
Endiku..no offense but...
`company is more concerned about cosmetics than the actual performance of the watches themselves'
`I say OP is a fashion house because it's more concerned with the cosmetics than the performance of the watch'
I think these statements (that OP is a company that is very concerned about cosmetics....) is not very different from claiming that they are evolving to meet market demand. IF OP is truly interested in cosmetics (appearance, style, exterior) ..then its logical to assume that they will have to change to meet what consumers want...
or do we need quote from Charles Darwin to understand the true meaning of evolving?
No offence taken but I am not sure why Mr. Darwin has to be dragged into this discussion. I never mentioned anything about "evolving", so I believe it's only logical you direct your question to GMAC (and now Hobitt) who did.
Post by: Enkidu on September 11, 2012, 08:38:45 AM
Panerai has always sourced movement from outside, what ever the reason, they are the only ones that knows. But the movement they source have always been reliable and robust. With this problem solved, this allows panerai to then focus on the presentation.
Hobbitt, I think we are moving in circles and degenerating into a stalemate at best. So, it is agreed PAM (from your own statement quoted above) that PAM leaves and solves the watch movement issue to outsiders and just focus on presentation. Much like what Guess, DKNY, Dior ....etc do I am sure. Still not a fashion house?
I am surprised not many other defenders of the house of PAM take on my argument and Hobbitt was left almost single-handedly to deal with my often frustrating jibes. To me, these very illuminating discussions (even if I am wrong, dead wrong even) show that OP exist only one the fringe of the watchmaking world. I am not as bold as Hanz speculating if the brand would possibily implode, but I only fear that other brands go the same way as these mob. Maybe I am a traditionalist.
I think we should set an alarm clock in this forum and revisit this issue in say 5 years' time. Who know? The PAM fashion could have waned so much by that time that the PAM372 would be going around for the price of a Steinhart / Stowa.
Post by: bwee on September 11, 2012, 08:46:34 AM
Post by: Godzillaz on September 11, 2012, 09:05:34 AM
It's easy to focus on the hype than do the actual reading and learning itself. It's even easier if there's some meat head around to poke fun of.
Are we talking about watches or people who buy watches?
Regards
Tyler
Post by: Enkidu on September 11, 2012, 09:14:16 AM
There's only one way to learn about the panerai watches. Get one yourself and you'll know. ;)
With all due respect, this is plain unsound advice. Maybe that's how the PAM fashion virus spread. But once you have invested money (lots of money in this case) can we still comment on the watch objectively. Surely many people would not render honest but negative comment on his own watch which he hopes to sell.
Post by: swleong on September 11, 2012, 09:19:14 AM
for all intent and purposes, I take a rather simplistic view....companies that makes only watches (whether in-house movement or otherwise) are watch makers... whilst companies which has watches in their product line up (clothes, handbags, accessories, shoes etc) are merely fashion houses.
can't agree fully, it is call business diversify.
Tag Heuer makes glasses, jackets, bags and accesories, but you can't really call them a fashion houses looking at thier history.
Seiko also produce glasses if you are not aware of...
Post by: TheHobbit on September 11, 2012, 09:41:08 AM
Panerai has always sourced movement from outside, what ever the reason, they are the only ones that knows. But the movement they source have always been reliable and robust. With this problem solved, this allows panerai to then focus on the presentation.
Hobbitt, I think we are moving in circles and degenerating into a stalemate at best. So, it is agreed PAM (from your own statement quoted above) that PAM leaves and solves the watch movement issue to outsiders and just focus on presentation. Much like what Guess, DKNY, Dior ....etc do I am sure. Still not a fashion house?
Nope, presentation is only part and parcel of the whole thing. Have Rolex made any improvement to its movements? Have Seiko? Have any other brands that make their own movements? If not, then all falls into this category, regardless if they leave it to outsider or in house (which by the way panerai have). So, with the problem of movement solved, all focus on presentation right? Milgauss with green crystal? Floating hands of the new explorer ii? Green Rolex dial? Green Rolex bezel of the 50th anniversary sub? Maxi dial? Are these not presentation issues? Or it is not because they have good movement?
Yes we are going in circle because of the movement. In house or outside source, once solved, all focus on Presentation, be it panerai, Rolex, Seiko, breitling, iwc, chronoswiss, citizen.....
We need to define fashion brand. Based on your definition, as long as the brand focuses on cosmetics and not the movement or performance of the watch, they are a fashion brand. That to me describes all brands. As long as the watch does not contain a new movement or improved movement, then it is all cosmetic. New sub vs old sub, any improvement in performance? Any improvement in movement? Changes cosmetics right? To meet the demands of the customers right? Old explorer and new? Any improvement in performance? Lots of complain about the short hands.... Cosmetics?
Post by: Godzillaz on September 11, 2012, 09:44:49 AM
With all due respect, this is plain unsound advice. Maybe that's how the PAM fashion virus spread.
Are you afraid you might get catch it as well? ::)
OK, ok back to being serious. A buying a watch is a rather personal, emotional and spiritual process. Quite a complicated subject to dissect. While most cases can be conclude in a short time. Others might take a little more time. The spirit of the watch can't be obeserve by sitting on the fences overlooking in a broad view.
In panerai's case, this is evident. Sure we often see wannabes, showoff and loud talker wearing big ol ugly pam. However to say that's all to it the panerai would be the same as saying rolex makes overprice waterproof watch or glashutte is just a cheaper, lower grade version of lange. How true is that statement?
Mind you there are lot of us who can quote the complete finishes of a watch movement and the history and logic behind design and execution of the watch. We don't start out buying Rolex and Panerai. In fact these are the last 2 brand that enter our collection.
The questions you be might be more interested in are
"Why Panerai?"
"What's there to be gain after VC, PP, Lange and the independent?"
"Won't your money be better of with a JLC tourbillon than a tritium index panerai watch with unitas movement?"
Quote
... But once you have invested money (lots of money in this case) can we still comment on the watch objectively. Surely many people would not render honest but negative comment on his own watch which he hopes to sell.
Is that how you perceive people? You can't be serious :o What happen about ethic and honesty. Am I in the wrong place?
Regards
Tyler
Post by: bwee on September 11, 2012, 09:52:13 AM
for all intent and purposes, I take a rather simplistic view....companies that makes only watches (whether in-house movement or otherwise) are watch makers... whilst companies which has watches in their product line up (clothes, handbags, accessories, shoes etc) are merely fashion houses.
can't agree fully, it is call business diversify.
Tag Heuer makes glasses, jackets, bags and accesories, but you can't really call them a fashion houses looking at thier history.
Seiko also produce glasses if you are not aware of...
that's why its just a simplistic view.. what you mentioned are exceptions.
Post by: Enkidu on September 11, 2012, 09:53:18 AM
Have Rolex made any improvement to its movements? Have Seiko?
Sorry Hobitt, I find these statements rather unsuited coming from an expert like you. It's one thing to have a stand that OP is not a fashion house, but quite ungainly to ignore the improvements made by Rolex and Seiko. Enough said.
Post by: Enkidu on September 11, 2012, 09:55:31 AM
Is that how you perceive people? You can't be serious :o What happen about ethic and honesty. Am I in the wrong place?
Regards
Tyler
[/quote]
How I perceive people subjectively has no bearing to this discussion surely.
Post by: SeaDwellerR on September 11, 2012, 09:57:19 AM
Dear members,
It has always been my opinion that Officine Panerai is not a watchmaking company but a just fashion house like DKNY, Dior, ...etc.
Panerai watches are all more about looks + aesthetics. Panerai lovers' obsession with the leather straps and the multitude of companies making straps for these watches partly support this view. When the watches do not come with see-through casebacks, I have seen photos of the movement underneath being not just undecorated, but downright raw and rough. This is evidence that the company is more concerned about cosmetics than the actual performance of the watches themselves (considering the movement is the heart of a watch). Companies like Stowa and Steinhart (or even Sea-Gull) have more self-respect than these Italians.
Considering their sizes, they look awkward as dress watches. Whilst some models have rotating bezel for diving, the majority don't - hence although these watches are claimed to be rated to 300m, they are practically useless as diving watches. In fact, it is not entirely clear which genre these watches belong to, except that they function as strong fashion statements for young people who want to appear bold and confident.
Their sale strategy (with countless special editions) shows they are not in the business of making good watches, but are here to play with human emotions and lust for exclusivity.
Let the discussion begin!!!
Let's answer with quotes of your opinion:-
"It has always been my opinion that Officine Panerai is not a watchmaking company but a just fashion house like DKNY, Dior, ...etc."
This is too harsh bro. With the greatest of respect, I have to disagree. Anyway, its just your personal opinion. I or we cannot change how you want to opine. :thumbsup:
"This is evidence that the company is more concerned about cosmetics than the actual performance of the watches themselves (considering the movement is the heart of a watch). Companies like Stowa and Steinhart (or even Sea-Gull) have more self-respect than these Italians."
Disagree. Panerai is all about Robustness and legibility of the dial under the water. History goes back to when they make watches for Italian Navy. And when you say this you have indirectly admitted that Panerai is cosmetically superior. Actual performance wise, they are building their own in-house movement.
"Considering their sizes, they look awkward as dress watches."
Panerai has various sizes and models, which size and model are you referring to? Luminor lines (which has the crown guard) are meant to be robust and not supposed to be dressy. Submersible are meant to be diving watch NOT dress watch! Radiomir lines are more elegant and dressy. So, i have to disagree with you.
"Their sale strategy (with countless special editions) shows they are not in the business of making good watches, but are here to play with human emotions and lust for exclusivity."
While I agree with you that they have countless special editions. This is just a good marketing strategy. These countless special editions do not mean that "they are not in the business of making good watches". Does IWC not make countless limited edition of Pilot watches? Does Audemars Piguet not make countless limited edition of ROO watches as well? Even JLC makes countless NAVY SEALS Limited edition watches! And these are good watches bro! They are all good watches!!
Just my 2 cents! :thumbsup:
Post by: G.MAC on September 11, 2012, 10:14:20 AM
No offence taken but I am not sure why Mr. Darwin has to be dragged into this discussion. I never mentioned anything about "evolving", so I believe it's only logical you direct your question to GMAC (and now Hobitt) who did.
I mean they are just changing the look because people love the sandwich dial, faux patina, gold hands, different dials. Minor changes to the watch. Overall, you cant deny that Panerai as a whole has looked the same. Same can be said for Rolex. With all the ceramic bezel, maxi dial, maxi case and all that. Why are most Rolex moving towards the ceramic bezel and maxi cases? It is not because they have degraded to become fashion brands. It is just that the market wants it like that. The submariner has looked the same throughout. The GMT2 as well. Same can be said for other brands. Omega, Tag, Breitling, and all. It is the era of big watches now. So in truth, 'evolving' is a means of changing and adapting. Thats all. Whats with all the negativity with Panerai anyway? I do agree on one point though. The countless special edition from Panerai will one day render Panerai not so special.
Post by: Godzillaz on September 11, 2012, 10:22:27 AM
QuoteIs that how you perceive people? You can't be serious :o What happen about ethic and honesty. Am I in the wrong place?
Regards
Tyler
How I perceive people subjectively has no bearing to this discussion surely.
But you are making a open statement on a public forum. Some good folks who don't fall under the category you describe got drag in as well. Can't we be more caution on our conduct?
I don't wanna be perceive as one if I ever come to sell a pam. :'(
Regards
Tyler
Post by: Enkidu on September 11, 2012, 10:26:46 AM
QuoteIs that how you perceive people? You can't be serious :o What happen about ethic and honesty. Am I in the wrong place?
Regards
Tyler
How I perceive people subjectively has no bearing to this discussion surely.
But you are making a open statement on a public forum. Some good folks who don't fall under the category you describe got drag in as well. Can't we be more caution on our conduct?
I don't wanna be perceive as one if I ever come to sell a pam. :'(
Regards
Tyler
OK, I am sorry if I cause you any mental anguish. But ethic and honesty are like religion. Sensitive issues best left to another thread or forum which I will definitely not participate.
Post by: TheHobbit on September 11, 2012, 10:40:14 AM
Have Rolex made any improvement to its movements? Have Seiko?
Sorry Hobitt, I find these statements rather unsuited coming from an expert like you. It's one thing to have a stand that OP is not a fashion house, but quite ungainly to ignore the improvements made by Rolex and Seiko. Enough said.
To general a statement, for which I apologise. Let's get specifics.....
Seiko monster watches..... Movement: 7s26
Model: orange monster, black monster, blue monster, white monster and the list goes on and on and on.....
Solve the basic movement, change the dial colour, case stainless steel or dlc, bezel dlc, and various other combinations...cosmetics? No, because good movement? Any improvement in the movement across the model offering?
Rolex submariner date..... Movement: 3135
Model: the standard black and the kermit. Not even looking at the tt.
Solve the basic movement, change the bezel insert to green, maxi dial and hands, cosmetic? No, because good movement?
By definition, focus on appearance, cosmetic change, fashion brand, no?
Post by: muckingfental on September 11, 2012, 10:49:55 AM
To me, the watch manufacturer is only as good as the people that want it and buys it. Rolex and Panerai above all other manufacturers knows this very well. If you like them, are crazy for them then you buy their watches. Great for them.
If you don't like their watches, you don't buy them but still talks about them. Good for them too! It's always a win-win for them whether they're on your wrist or in your hatelist. ;D
Post by: Enkidu on September 11, 2012, 10:52:21 AM
To general a statement, for which I apologise. Let's get specifics.....
Seiko monster watches..... Movement: 7s26
Model: orange monster, black monster, blue monster, white monster and the list goes on and on and on.....
Solve the basic movement, change the dial colour, case stainless steel or dlc, bezel dlc, and various other ombinations...cosmetics? No, because good movement?
Rolex submariner date..... Movement: 3135
Model: the standard black and the kermit.
Solve the basic movement, change he bezel insert to green, cosmetic change! No, because good movement?
By definition, focus on appearance, cosmetic change, fashion brand, no?
Since our focus is PAM and not seiko and rolex, I'll keep my reply brief (my pad's battery running low also):
- Yes, the 7s26 is still being used, but as far back as 2002, Seiko was already using an upgrade 7s36 with 23J I think. No improvement? The 7S (if I remember correctly) with about 40hrs of PR also formed the basis for the 6R15 with 50hrs of PR. No improvement?? What about Seiko's proprietary SPRON51 mainspring and SPRON610 balance spring? Not worth mentioning compared to the various dials that go into the monsters?
- As regards Rolex, what about the 3186? Not an improvement? The ceramic bezel, not an improvement? The Sky-Dweller is not an improvement of course, it's a new development altogether (unless I have missed something like Rolex secretly asking Franck Mueller to design it).
Again, Hobbitt, enough said. I begin to feel that we will not get much more out of each other and the other members.
Post by: TheHobbit on September 11, 2012, 11:01:43 AM
Since our focus is PAM and not seiko and rolex, I'll keep my reply brief (my pad's battery running low also):
- Yes, the 7s26 is still being used, but as far back as 2002, Seiko was already using an upgrade 7s36 with 23J I think. No improvement? The 7S (if I remember correctly) with about 40hrs of PR also formed the basis for the 6R15 with 50hrs of PR. No improvement?? What about Seiko's proprietary SPRON51 mainspring and SPRON610 balance spring? Not worth mentioning compared to the various dials that go into the monsters?
- As regards Rolex, what about the 3186? Not an improvement? The ceramic bezel, not an improvement? The Sky-Dweller is not an improvement of course, it's a new development altogether (unless I have missed something like Rolex secretly asking Franck Mueller to design it).
Again, Hobbitt, enough said. I begin to feel that we will not get much more out of each other and the other members.
Ok, since we talking about panerai, ceramic case, improvement? Outsource to in house movement, improvement?
Post by: am_sober on September 11, 2012, 11:04:13 AM
To me a fashion brand is one that gets someone else to make their watches, like Hugo boss or nautica or Adidas. A company that makes its own movement, regardless good or bad, it's own cases, have a design team, factory, and even makes and design for other brands, Ferrari and even montblanc can't be a fashion brand. It may not be the best at making watches, but it is for sure not a fashion brand.
:thumbsup:
totally agrees on this perception on the fashion brand..
btw whats the real/accepted definition of fashion brand?
imho, if we got that right then the problem solved~ ^^
tc cheers~
:Cheers:
Post by: Enkidu on September 11, 2012, 11:13:51 AM
Ok, since we talking about panerai, ceramic case, improvement? Outsource to in house movement, improvement?
Hobbitt, If you think ceramic case is a big deal, Chanel also has a ceramic case and it comes in white, black and maybe other colours. I have already told you how I felt about the movements. But they do not however detract from my argument that OP focuses more on the cosmetics and strap.
(I think we are getting no where in this thread. Again, enough said b4 this degenerates into silliness).
Post by: rusminag on September 11, 2012, 11:45:30 AM
Is OP a fashion house?? used to.... but now that it is creating its own movements, I would say that it is now a serious watchmaker.
Post by: TheHobbit on September 11, 2012, 11:57:51 AM
I have nothing to add. We have our beliefs and stand. And I guess that is where it will remain.
Post by: fidoneo on September 11, 2012, 12:02:47 PM
With all due respect, this is plain unsound advice. Maybe that's how the PAM fashion virus spread.
Are you afraid you might get catch it as well? ::)
OK, ok back to being serious. A buying a watch is a rather personal, emotional and spiritual process. Quite a complicated subject to dissect. While most cases can be conclude in a short time. Others might take a little more time. The spirit of the watch can't be obeserve by sitting on the fences overlooking in a broad view.
In panerai's case, this is evident. Sure we often see wannabes, showoff and loud talker wearing big ol ugly pam. However to say that's all to it the panerai would be the same as saying rolex makes overprice waterproof watch or glashutte is just a cheaper, lower grade version of lange. How true is that statement?
Mind you there are lot of us who can quote the complete finishes of a watch movement and the history and logic behind design and execution of the watch. We don't start out buying Rolex and Panerai. In fact these are the last 2 brand that enter our collection.
The questions you be might be more interested in are
"Why Panerai?"
"What's there to be gain after VC, PP, Lange and the independent?"
"Won't your money be better of with a JLC tourbillon than a tritium index panerai watch with unitas movement?"Quote... But once you have invested money (lots of money in this case) can we still comment on the watch objectively. Surely many people would not render honest but negative comment on his own watch which he hopes to sell.
Is that how you perceive people? You can't be serious :o What happen about ethic and honesty. Am I in the wrong place?
Regards
Tyler
Well said :thumbsup:
Cheers to ristis out there :Cheers:
Post by: Enkidu on September 11, 2012, 12:13:20 PM
Enkidu,
I have nothing to add. We have our beliefs and stand. And I guess that is where it will remain.
Yea Hobbitt, I guess it has been a good discussion whatever the conclusion may be. It's hard for me to convince others of my stand, and with armies and armies of PAM lovers out there, I was not expecting it to be easy. It seemed like I was all alone. My only surprise is so few brave knights of the order of PAM came to its defence. Likewise, it will be hard for these people to convince me to buy a PAM; that PAM382 for example, despite all the raving about the types of great looking patina that will form on the bronze case when you soak it in ketchup, sea water, distilled water, fruit juice etc, just not my fashion. Sorry. :Cheers:
Post by: zameenzahari on September 11, 2012, 12:13:37 PM
Dear members,
It has always been my opinion that Officine Panerai is not a watchmaking company but a just fashion house like DKNY, Dior, ...etc.
Panerai watches are all more about looks + aesthetics. Panerai lovers' obsession with the leather straps and the multitude of companies making straps for these watches partly support this view. When the watches do not come with see-through casebacks, I have seen photos of the movement underneath being not just undecorated, but downright raw and rough. This is evidence that the company is more concerned about cosmetics than the actual performance of the watches themselves (considering the movement is the heart of a watch). Companies like Stowa and Steinhart (or even Sea-Gull) have more self-respect than these Italians.
Considering their sizes, they look awkward as dress watches. Whilst some models have rotating bezel for diving, the majority don't - hence although these watches are claimed to be rated to 300m, they are practically useless as diving watches. In fact, it is not entirely clear which genre these watches belong to, except that they function as strong fashion statements for young people who want to appear bold and confident.
Their sale strategy (with countless special editions) shows they are not in the business of making good watches, but are here to play with human emotions and lust for exclusivity.
Let the discussion begin!!!
A few points:
-10/11 years ago, a lot of purists and WIS made the same comment that Panerai as a brand is just a fashion brand (though I was quite certain it was lumped together with Cartier and not DKNY) and it will just be a fad that will eventually die a slow death. The arguement is that OP just "rehashed" ETA ebauches and clothed them in some fancy case. Since then OP went on to have their own inhouse movement p.2002 and went on to expand the line which now includes complications like the equation of time and tourby as well. Have you also seen the level of mechanical and horological complications achieved by the Jupiterium? Do a google search and do tell me if Stowa and Steinhart which in your views are much better have exhibited capabilities remotely close to OP (by the way, OP is Officine Panerai)
OP has also invested in R&D for new case materials like the panerai composite. OP has also made sigificant investment in their manufacture facilities which will be expanded significantly. From my numerous conversations with OP, the aim is to go full inhouse and reduce dependency on third parties including ETA/Valjoux. Yes, some I noted highlighted the fact that the inhouse movement are based on JLC movement- but my counter to that is : a) why reinvent the wheel when you can share what you have within the Richemont group b) although the basis of the design might be originally JLC's but the finished movements including the complications are exclusively panerai. These in my views signifies a significant paradigm shift in OP's manufacturing approach and offering to its customers from one of what you term "fashion watches" to haute horologie.
Made up history? The pre-Vendome panerai has existed continously as a company (in the watch related business and military precision instrument) since 1860 and despite being purchased by the Vendome group in 1997, remains a watch making company at heart. Granted that pre 1993 (when OP began selling their watches to the civilian market), not much is known about the company, it is because their only client was the marina militare (with a few exception like the egiziano which was manufactured for the Egyptian army and the Israeli Defence Force). The company experimented with watches for military application- does that not qualify as history? is it made up like those of B&R, Stowa, steinhart (the modern incarnations of course)? I dont think so. there are various documents from the military in the OP and Ferretti's archives which proves this. Honestly, with the exception of VC and maybe a few others, there are very few watchmaking company which has continously been producing haute horologie pieces since its inception. Even the venerable Lange that we all know and love is a re-incarnation of of its original self. History is just a facet of fine watchmaking but not necessarily a be all end all- ask Franck Muller, Urwerk, MB&F and Richard Mille for instance.
As far as being ugly watches which is impossible to be used formally, I beg to differ. I am in the financial industry and in every other meeting, there will be a guy wearing a suit & a PAM sitting next to a guy in a suit wearing a Breguet- none look out of place. Ugly or not its subjective- some people think the legacy machine of MB&F is ugly..I think they should be in the Louvre. I love the dial of my 339 for instance but even among ristis, there are others who dont. Just for the record- I dont like the look of Stowa or Steinhart- they look cheap but before you crucify me, that's my opinion and like a b**thole, everyone has one.
I've collected Panerais for a number of years now and to be honest, I've never lost money on any piece that I traded. In some instances, its increased several times over (google PAM 360, PAM 195). Worst deal I ever did- I got back what I paid for. Tell me one "fashion" brand where this is the case? Ok, name me haute horologie names where this is the case- it'll be very few I'm sure. Would this be the case if the brand is a total rip off? Could the many thousands collectors be as dumb as potrayed..jumping on the bandwagon without knowing the history etc?
As for playing with exclusivity and all looking the same, Take the AP ROO for example..same story? But ask anybody and nobody would equate AP as a fashion-playing with emotion-I'm so cool coz I have the Legacy watch right?
Every year the naysayer said that OP is going down as a fad fashion watch. So far, for the last decade or so, I've seen them proven wrong time and time again. OP is moving in the right direction and if pieces like the Astronomie (Equation of time, PAM 365) or PAM 350 (Le Scienziato) still does not illustrate OP's capable of manufacturing haute horologie pieces and is brand less worthy than a STOWA (????!!) then I dont know what will.......
I guess its time to get that Urwerk...
Post by: kentkoh79 on September 11, 2012, 02:43:56 PM
as a conclusion :
1. not many people know about panerai brand and not as fancy as ROLEX big name especially to layman : who cares ! As long as i like this brand
2.Resale value cannot compare with Rolex : who care ! i not going to let go my watch
3.Panerai movement and accuracy cannot compete with Rolex : who cares ! digital watch is the best !
4. Panerai is a rubbish : who cares ! because i love this rubbish ! :p
Post by: Enkidu on September 11, 2012, 03:07:17 PM
I always getting the info that panerai is not worth of its price and just a junk or rubbish ( according to hong kong watch forum famous description for Panerai :p )
I believe you may find such compliments in TZ-UK also.
Post by: dpkong on September 11, 2012, 07:18:16 PM
...
after so used to 44mm size , every time i try to put on my sea dweller or GMT back on my wrist , i will put them down again as i am wearing a "kid watch " ! not "MAN" at all !!
...
I don't wish you inflame anyone here but to me, the above statement does kind of portray the Panerai brand as a "fashion brand" in my interpretation.
To me, a "fashion brand" is something you wear to match your clothes (casual, office) or mood or surroundings (diving, work etc). I just slap on the watch I have nearby and it will fit any situation. It's an Oyster and is fine whether in the water, at work or at dinner.
Yes, I do admit being a Rolex addict. I have looked at Panerai many times but as my previous post stated, they somehow look all alike. I do love the legibility of the dial but the size is just too large for average Asian wrists and just screams "Look at me!".
Even my regular grey dealer told me not to bother buying any, although he does sell a lot of them to those who want them. But to buyers on the fence, he says it's better not to touch them.
I do not read about Panerai history other than what is posted on this thread and have no interest to, as yet. However, knowing that most are either ETA or Unitas powered, they are just too overpriced. Their own in-house needs time to prove itself.
So, my opinion (for what it is worth) is that Panerai is a fashion brand mostly because the watch owners portray it as such.
Post by: gloomis on September 11, 2012, 07:34:58 PM
Let's answer with quotes of your opinion:-
"It has always been my opinion that Officine Panerai is not a watchmaking company but a just fashion house like DKNY, Dior, ...etc."
This is too harsh bro. With the greatest of respect, I have to disagree. Anyway, its just your personal opinion. I or we cannot change how you want to opine. :thumbsup:
"This is evidence that the company is more concerned about cosmetics than the actual performance of the watches themselves (considering the movement is the heart of a watch). Companies like Stowa and Steinhart (or even Sea-Gull) have more self-respect than these Italians."
Disagree. Panerai is all about Robustness and legibility of the dial under the water. History goes back to when they make watches for Italian Navy. And when you say this you have indirectly admitted that Panerai is cosmetically superior. Actual performance wise, they are building their own in-house movement.
"Considering their sizes, they look awkward as dress watches."
Panerai has various sizes and models, which size and model are you referring to? Luminor lines (which has the crown guard) are meant to be robust and not supposed to be dressy. Submersible are meant to be diving watch NOT dress watch! Radiomir lines are more elegant and dressy. So, i have to disagree with you.
"Their sale strategy (with countless special editions) shows they are not in the business of making good watches, but are here to play with human emotions and lust for exclusivity."
While I agree with you that they have countless special editions. This is just a good marketing strategy. These countless special editions do not mean that "they are not in the business of making good watches". Does IWC not make countless limited edition of Pilot watches? Does Audemars Piguet not make countless limited edition of ROO watches as well? Even JLC makes countless NAVY SEALS Limited edition watches! And these are good watches bro! They are all good watches!!
Just my 2 cents! :thumbsup:
[/quote]
bro, u earn my full respect. I salute u
Post by: gloomis on September 11, 2012, 07:45:35 PM
ZZ...impressive statement there but i guess there are just ppl dont really know abt the spirit of pams has and brings. to alot ppl they just know all pams look the same and mostly is a bunch of combination number and now some say is fashion watches.
well....as tyler said best way to know and understand the brand, just buy 1 and join the risti gtg then they will know how this brand get ppl connected worldwide.
Post by: Enkidu on September 11, 2012, 08:18:38 PM
ZZ...impressive statement there but i guess there are just ppl dont really know abt the spirit of pams has and brings. to alot ppl they just know all pams look the same and mostly is a bunch of combination number and now some say is fashion watches.
well....as tyler said best way to know and understand the brand, just buy 1 and join the risti gtg then they will know how this brand get ppl connected worldwide.
So, instead of just encouraging people like me to buy one, would the Panerai gurus care to explain in some detail what the "spirit" is all about. I am waiting, wanting and willing to be illuminated............ :Praying: :Praying: :Praying: :Praying:
Post by: tonykpk on September 11, 2012, 08:35:09 PM
Post by: Godzillaz on September 11, 2012, 08:37:02 PM
I thought you have already make up your mine that Panerai watch are just fashion statement. According to the way you see things I have to agree. This brand is just not for you. They are overpriced, lousy Italian product with a huge marketing campaign supporting their business to con their customer.
Dead on, you're so right. YooHoo :Dancing_banana:
Regard
Tyler the stupid who don't anything.
So, instead of just encouraging people like me to buy one, would the Panerai gurus care to explain in some detail what the "spirit" is all about. I am waiting, wanting and willing to be illuminated............ :Praying: :Praying: :Praying: :Praying:
Post by: Enkidu on September 11, 2012, 08:43:34 PM
Post by: fidoneo on September 11, 2012, 08:57:15 PM
Let's answer with quotes of your opinion:-
"It has always been my opinion that Officine Panerai is not a watchmaking company but a just fashion house like DKNY, Dior, ...etc."
This is too harsh bro. With the greatest of respect, I have to disagree. Anyway, its just your personal opinion. I or we cannot change how you want to opine. :thumbsup:
"This is evidence that the company is more concerned about cosmetics than the actual performance of the watches themselves (considering the movement is the heart of a watch). Companies like Stowa and Steinhart (or even Sea-Gull) have more self-respect than these Italians."
Disagree. Panerai is all about Robustness and legibility of the dial under the water. History goes back to when they make watches for Italian Navy. And when you say this you have indirectly admitted that Panerai is cosmetically superior. Actual performance wise, they are building their own in-house movement.
"Considering their sizes, they look awkward as dress watches."
Panerai has various sizes and models, which size and model are you referring to? Luminor lines (which has the crown guard) are meant to be robust and not supposed to be dressy. Submersible are meant to be diving watch NOT dress watch! Radiomir lines are more elegant and dressy. So, i have to disagree with you.
"Their sale strategy (with countless special editions) shows they are not in the business of making good watches, but are here to play with human emotions and lust for exclusivity."
While I agree with you that they have countless special editions. This is just a good marketing strategy. These countless special editions do not mean that "they are not in the business of making good watches". Does IWC not make countless limited edition of Pilot watches? Does Audemars Piguet not make countless limited edition of ROO watches as well? Even JLC makes countless NAVY SEALS Limited edition watches! And these are good watches bro! They are all good watches!!
Just my 2 cents! :thumbsup:
bro, u earn my full respect. I salute u
[/quote]
Bro Gloomis ,
Each individual has their own preference bro.. My money i spend my own way . whether today i buy a pam or rolex or a "lapsap" watch . i Suka la.. HAHA.. anyway i am risti just like you and thanks to you .. Peace Bro ...
:thumbsup:
Stan
Post by: ckcspice on September 11, 2012, 09:33:23 PM
Post by: Godzillaz on September 11, 2012, 09:47:44 PM
Here's me joining you.
(http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w501/TdBean/MM.jpg)
Regard
Tyler
Bro Gloomis ,
Each individual has their own preference bro.. My money i spend my own way . whether today i buy a pam or rolex or a "lapsap" watch . i Suka la.. HAHA.. anyway i am risti just like you and thanks to you .. Peace Bro ...
:thumbsup:
Stan
Post by: kentkoh79 on September 11, 2012, 09:48:52 PM
(http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t477/kentkoh79/20120820_f502ed073aea63dc31e3925qU3dbNA4i.jpg)
(http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t477/kentkoh79/20120820_163084972d04f5a405faShD93Gx97jbp.jpg)
Panerai looks at its best on a female wrist !! :Cheers: :Laughing_on_floor:
agreed to bro fidoneo and ckcspice ! it is doesnt matter whether panerai is a fashion watch or a professional watch , the most important thing is buy what you like and how the watch looking on your wrist and as long as you r happy and connected with that watch ... Anyway just awaiting to see Expendible 2 and anticipated to see how the PAM 382 looked on those super stars wrist :Dancing_banana:
Post by: Kennypane on September 11, 2012, 10:37:51 PM
Post by: rusminag on September 12, 2012, 03:17:11 AM
Post by: fidoneo on September 12, 2012, 04:30:10 AM
That make you're a hopeless fashion victim, Stan. ;D
Here's me joining you.
(http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w501/TdBean/MM.jpg)
Regard
TylerBro Gloomis ,
Each individual has their own preference bro.. My money i spend my own way . whether today i buy a pam or rolex or a "lapsap" watch . i Suka la.. HAHA.. anyway i am risti just like you and thanks to you .. Peace Bro ...
:thumbsup:
Stan
Bro Tyler :) agree
We are hopeless fashion people spending a few hundred k on fashion watches and straps :) hip hip hooray to us . We should open a few bottles of wine to celebrate ... :Cheers:
:thumbsup:
Post by: TheHobbit on September 12, 2012, 04:48:45 AM
Fashion brand, no, fashion conscious, likely.
Best of all about the brand, if you are like me, want the watch that looks like the watches it issued many many years ago, just go historic. If you like something more modern, with complication, go contemporary. All while still maintaining its basic design, tool watch with great lume and simple to read dial.
Post by: fidoneo on September 12, 2012, 06:17:43 AM
hi guys. Sorry for the interruption here. I find it funny that Panerai was accused of being a fashion brand. To me fashion brand is errr Chanel? Maybe Alain Silberstein? Cartier was a fashion brand until they really proved themselves to be in the high end watchmaking league. High complications. Some say adidas and dkny and guess? No. I don't think u can put panerai to these names. That's shameful. Van Cleef, Burberry, Gucci, maybe LV, can be considered fashion brand. Hermes, cannot be considered fashion brand cos they quite innovative with some of their complications. I love Franck Muller cos complication on the highest realm. Look at their watches, all so complicated and they appear fashionable but does not mean they fashion brand. so what's the problem with Panerai? Why I read one member here so dislike Panerai? I mean why he asking everyone to justify his own beliefs that Panerai is a fashion brand wor? it's the whole floor against one person or one person against whole floor? Not fair. I love the romanticism on it's history about a watch being involved in the war. That's cool. Rolex supplied movement to their 3646, even more excellent. Look at carefully on the layout or design of the 6497 to the Rolex supplied hand wind movement, they look similar. I love the California dial. I love the plexi, I love Radiomir case more than luminor case. Sorry guys cos I find it closer to Panerai history or more relevant. Panerai is proving itself through developing their own movements. It's a brand which will appeal to a small group of people worldwide. Not everyone likes it. To those who really have small wrist will complain it's too big and appear as a fashion brand just bcos Panerai is big at 44mm and above. Those who have small wrist can opt for the 40mm one, no wrong. I also like the 232, 249, already mentioned, the JLC equipped Panerai also damn nice. People actually invest their lives to write Vintage Panerai book. Panerai is a tool watch. I dunno how strap became a debate here. So funny. Just because a watch can change strap becomes a fashion brand. What cock calling in the morning. Hilarious. I find the picture with that great looking lady wearing the Pam so sexy. Very very nice Marina Militaire shown here and also very nice Mare Nostrum. Lovely. Oh btw Hobbit, I like lurking on your horologycrazy place. U know your watches and nicely consolidated Pam collection. So is Panerai a fashion brand? IMHO, NO!!! it's a watch not for everyone, price driven by short supply and crazy demands, paneristi can bang tables if they wait too long, it's a brand with incidents on and off such as peeling coating on their black cases, NY boutique edition with raw Unitas movements undecorated, ok it's not acceptable. let me see, service sometimes sucks. But hey, it's a watch brand learning and growing up and crazy Italian brand revived, rebranded, induced with was history, real history and stories dug deeper to evoke stronger passion among fans and collectors. No wrong in that. I love the cushion Radiomir. Ppl buy Panerai because they know what is inside and outside and they can carry their Panerai on their wrists at least. Every watch brand is a fashion statement, be it an IWC, Rollies, Omegas or whatever. U put the watch on your wrist as a statement. If it looks good, it is called a fashion statement. If it does not, it's called fugly statement. Are these aforementioned brands fashion brands? No they are not. Panerai is a real watch, not your quartz fashion watch.
Well said bro .. So are you wearing a dkny watch today ?? Hehe ;D
Stan
Post by: sooncheng1990 on September 12, 2012, 06:38:29 AM
Last year i bought a new pam 111 for twenty one birthday. Bought from Singkie AD. My first good watch. My roommate also got one, look cool with black rubber and when we wear T-shirts & jeans. :laugh: :laugh:
I wore it for nearly 6 months....but just not good. :thumbsdown: The crown just hurt my hand :Scolding:. Worse is that there were some dusts in the front glass and the glass at the back. Can see quite clearly, but did not see when I buy. So frust, took back to AD. AD told me need to send to customer service people at King Center!!! They cleaned it for me, no charge. But more issues after that. The watch become slow by almost 5 minutes every day. Nearly missed my stats exam!!! So another trip to customer service. They assked me if the watch ever dropped down to the floor. I said no.....said it was OK until my last repair visit to the service center. They repaired it again, but I can only collect the watch 2 day's later. Dunno....maybe they have lots of other watches to repair. The watch got fixed (FOC) bbut I have no more confidence in PAM. So I stopped wearing it. Then sold it. Lost soem money but we learn from mistakes. :Blue:
Now looking fdor a good outdoor watch. I know PAM ristis are sensitive and protective of the brand...my view is this is not a real watch brand. Maybe not like DKNY or Police or Nautica, but PAM brand is concentrate of fashion, not a watch that will give confidence to wearer it will work properly....won't buy again. :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:
Post by: gloomis on September 12, 2012, 07:30:00 AM
I now looking fdor a good outdoor watch. I know PAM ristis are sensitive and protective of the brand...my view is this is not a real watch brand. Maybe not like DKNY or Police or Nautica, but PAM brand is concentrate of fashion, not a watch that will give confidence to wearer it will work properly....won't buy again. :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:
Bro, from my experience if u need a very good solid made outdoor watch, please take my advise go for rolex even tho i am a risti now. I might be very supportive to pams but i have to agree that their casing is not tat solid. I love outdoor activities and i tried many brands like rolex, iwc, JLC, pams, omega, tag. Nothing come close to rolex casing....Nothing!!
Post by: gloomis on September 12, 2012, 07:31:35 AM
That make you're a hopeless fashion victim, Stan. ;D
Here's me joining you.
(http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w501/TdBean/MM.jpg)
Regard
Tyler
oh my....ur FASHION watch hands is moulded. thats the worst fashion watch i seen so far. u might consider to throw this fashion watch away and get a new pcs
Post by: sooncheng1990 on September 12, 2012, 07:36:59 AM
I now looking fdor a good outdoor watch. I know PAM ristis are sensitive and protective of the brand...my view is this is not a real watch brand. Maybe not like DKNY or Police or Nautica, but PAM brand is concentrate of fashion, not a watch that will give confidence to wearer it will work properly....won't buy again. :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:
Bro, from my experience if u need a very good solid made outdoor watch, please take my advise go for rolex even tho i am a risti now. I might be very supportive to pams but i have to agree that their casing is not tat solid. I love outdoor activities and i tried many brands like rolex, iwc, JLC, pams, omega, tag. Nothing come close to rolex casing....Nothing!!
Bro...TQ. :Cheers: :Cheers: Now I am moving away from PAm but wish is Omega or a Tag. I know Rolex is good, but makes me look old. Also, the price is out of my budget after I sell my PAM111. :'( :'(
...But Thanks for advise...
Post by: Godzillaz on September 12, 2012, 07:37:31 AM
I'm sorry you have such problem with your 111. Basically what you have is poorly regulated watch. All you need is to tell the person to repair watch to regulate it more thoroughly. The unitas based manual wind movement is robust, tested and trusted for many years. The only reason it's faulty might be broken parts or loss precision due to impact.
Hope this find you well
Regard
Tyler
Post by: ckng515 on September 12, 2012, 07:39:55 AM
Dear members,
It has always been my opinion that Officine Panerai is not a watchmaking company but a just fashion house like DKNY, Dior, ...etc.
Panerai watches are all more about looks + aesthetics. Panerai lovers' obsession with the leather straps and the multitude of companies making straps for these watches partly support this view. When the watches do not come with see-through casebacks, I have seen photos of the movement underneath being not just undecorated, but downright raw and rough. This is evidence that the company is more concerned about cosmetics than the actual performance of the watches themselves (considering the movement is the heart of a watch). Companies like Stowa and Steinhart (or even Sea-Gull) have more self-respect than these Italians.
Considering their sizes, they look awkward as dress watches. Whilst some models have rotating bezel for diving, the majority don't - hence although these watches are claimed to be rated to 300m, they are practically useless as diving watches. In fact, it is not entirely clear which genre these watches belong to, except that they function as strong fashion statements for young people who want to appear bold and confident.
Their sale strategy (with countless special editions) shows they are not in the business of making good watches, but are here to play with human emotions and lust for exclusivity.
Let the discussion begin!!!
Hi mate,
Happy morning!
This is for more pleasure than reading the newspaper. ;D
Officine Panerai just a fashion house?
I really hope I can buy some jeans and shoes from them,this will save me a lots of trouble in mixing and matching my daily outfit.I'm a shoe and jeans freaks btw.
DKNY?!?!? :o
Come on mate, a bit too harsh.Better compare with Cartier,Chanel and Hermes etc..more classy!
When you think it's a fashion brand no matter how much facts and points we share, we cannot change you,unless you started this thread to look for inspiration, to convince yourself to buy a Panerai. Or else this discussion will heading no where.
If you think OP is a fashion house like DKNY,Dior, just walk away from this brand.
What I can say is wearing an oversized watches(or a clock) is DA trend now.OP basically offer a whole lots of selection when you decided to follow the trend. Even some so called "self respected, well known, historical blah blah " watchmaker brand have to follow the trend.Upsize their watch casing. What to do thats what's the market demands.
Therefor OP is a trendy watchmaker,I still can accept la.
"This is evidence that the company is more concerned about cosmetics than the actual performance of the watches themselves (considering the movement is the heart of a watch). Companies like Stowa and Steinhart (or even Sea-Gull) have more self-respect than these Italians."
If you are referring to the PAM00318 issue,I have no comment,
but then again, OP have a lots more pieces with well decorated movements, try google PAM00317K,PAM00319,PAM00348,PAM00350,PAM36500,PAM36501 and PAM36502 I find the movement underneath those robust casing makes them quite a Heart!
Sea gull? no way..try handle their tourby!
"Considering their sizes, they look awkward as dress watches. Whilst some models have rotating bezel for diving, the majority don't - hence although these watches are claimed to be rated to 300m, they are practically useless as diving watches."
Some are claimed to be rated 2500m and with fugly rotating bezel! :P
Y useless? I don't quite understand.but i guess not many people will dive with their precious collection. I dive with my rollie(rated 300m) seiko(200m) Sinn(1000m) before,practically they are useless too.I look at my dive computer more!
I just want to find out the money I spent on the so called diver's watch whether they are truly water resistant, but I can only dive for ~20m. :-\
If you are happy with a 36mm dress watch, by all means, stick with it.don't bother about what other's are wearing.
"Their sale strategy (with countless special editions) shows they are not in the business of making good watches, but are here to play with human emotions and lust for exclusivity."
Buying is emotional, I think majority of the WIS will agree with me, when you finally bagged something is highly sought after and it's rare,you emotion will take over:)
Special edition is an useful and effective marketing strategy!Way too many special edition? from the company point of view, why not?
This is a very useful trick to generate more income from a particular cash cow from a brand.All the company like SE,Limited edition,etc,
In conjunction with the opening of new boutique worldwide, therefore you'll see more all look the same Se/BE. what to do, can sell ma.
To me watch collecting is a passion!It's a fun thing to do!
Mate, seek value!
Seek value in whatever we like and dislike,what others like, we will have more fun!
I still enjoy my oversize DYN...opps..OP, even a lots of ppl say I'm wearing a clock on my wrist,I take it as a compliment. ;D
Just my 2 cents.
:Cheers:
ck
Post by: zameenzahari on September 12, 2012, 07:41:05 AM
wah.....hot discussion here bro. :Cheers: :Cheers: :Cheers:
Last year i bought a new pam 111 for twenty one birthday. Bought from Singkie AD. My first good watch. My roommate also got one, look cool with black rubber and when we wear T-shirts & jeans. :laugh: :laugh:
I wore it for nearly 6 months....but just not good. :thumbsdown: The crown just hurt my hand :Scolding:. Worse is that there were some dusts in the front glass and the glass at the back. Can see quite clearly, but did not see when I buy. So frust, took back to AD. AD told me need to send to customer service people at King Center!!! They cleaned it for me, no charge. But more issues after that. The watch become slow by almost 5 minutes every day. Nearly missed my stats exam!!! So another trip to customer service. They assked me if the watch ever dropped down to the floor. I said no.....said it was OK until my last repair visit to the service center. They repaired it again, but I can only collect the watch 2 day's later. Dunno....maybe they have lots of other watches to repair. The watch got fixed (FOC) bbut I have no more confidence in PAM. So I stopped wearing it. Then sold it. Lost soem money but we learn from mistakes. :Blue:
Now looking fdor a good outdoor watch. I know PAM ristis are sensitive and protective of the brand...my view is this is not a real watch brand. Maybe not like DKNY or Police or Nautica, but PAM brand is concentrate of fashion, not a watch that will give confidence to wearer it will work properly....won't buy again. :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:
Sorry to hear that you got a lemon. I have owned PAMs for about 10 years now and so far (touch wood), I've not had any issues be it with the UNITAS or in-house. I've only had to change mainspring for my PAM 183 after about 6 years of regular use. Other than that, so far, so good.
on the other hand, I've had some QC problem with my Exp 2 (loose screw) after 3 months of purchase from the AD...but that did not change my view that Rolex is still a respected watchmaking brand (they did make good and I enjoyed a trouble free ownership after that)...point is sometimes you get to pull the shortest straw.
Post by: sooncheng1990 on September 12, 2012, 07:47:34 AM
I'm sorry you have such problem with your 111. Basically what you have is poorly regulated watch. All you need is to tell the person to repair watch to regulate it more thoroughly. The unitas based manual wind movement is robust, tested and trusted for many years. The only reason it's faulty might be broken parts or loss precision due to impact.
Hope this find you well
Regard
Tyler
Thanks Bro... :Cheers: :Cheers: in aniother forum people also told me the PAM111 mechanism is from well tested source. If well tested, then how come it slowwed 5 minits a day? :'( :'( The PAM111 has long history already. If PAM is serious, should not have this problem. The customer service people also did not say what is wrong. Just said maybe I accidentally knock the watch. I just could not risk wrong timing with my watch again. So I decided not to wear it. Maybe I am unlucky. :'( :'( My PAM is sold now. Will stay away from this brand...sorry. My room mate still has his one, but itching to sell so can buy a IWC diver. :D :D :D
Post by: tonykpk on September 12, 2012, 07:54:07 AM
one man's meat is another man's poison...dont think any persuasion or opinions from either side of the camp will sway anyone to defect n switch sides :) ....so just buy what u like with ur own hard earned money....doesnt matter wat other folks say bout how u spend ur RM30k or RM100k...as long as u r happy....Agreed CK, but there are people buying on impulse, follow the herd mentality buying (like some people are wearing it I've got to get one). At the end of the day they might " owned many knives but none is sharp". regards tony
Post by: Enkidu on September 12, 2012, 08:44:08 AM
When you think it's a fashion brand no matter how much facts and points we share, we cannot change you,unless you started this thread to look for inspiration, to convince yourself to buy a Panerai. Or else this discussion will heading no where.
Thanks for the entertaining sales pitch CK.
Since my discussion ended with Hobbitt yesterday afternoon, all that I have read in this thread are Panerai lovers:
(a) saluting, high-fiving, confirming their mutual brotherhood;
(b) admitting they'll love it even if it's "rubbish" (not my word, please don't blame and attribute this to me); and
(c) admitting my view was right and that OP was a fashion brand all in jest of course;
instead of sharing what the spirit of PAM (as gloomis termed it) is all about. Then I see PAM lovers coming out from the closet in defence and giving the most oft-cited advice when another member shared his negative experience with his PAM111, even recommending he should be getting a rolex.
So, you can't really blame anyone if the discussion is heading no where right? And that is why we are still at where I left it with Hobbitt yesterday afternoon. I read in another thread where another member termed this discussion as silly. All that I can see is that I punctured a big globe of insecurity juice and that is spewing out with vengenace. Enough said friend, not only are we heading no where (contrary to what you wrote), reading the newspaper is getting more interesting....
Post by: Plankton-IkanBilis on September 12, 2012, 08:57:20 AM
Post by: sooncheng1990 on September 12, 2012, 09:10:33 AM
It's an open forum...things like these are bound to happen. Let's hope future entries in this thread retain the dignity and class which MWF deserves. Cheers!
Bro, what happened? To me nothing happened. I like the information here.......people read it and know the pro and cons of PAM. Nothing wrong with that what... :Dancing_banana: :Dancing_banana: :Dancing_banana:
Hey Endiku, I read all your comments, got class man your replies. I salute your bravery fighting all alone. But cannot say PAM = DKNY. Too extreme bro. But I respect your view still............. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Very entertaining.
Post by: sm on September 12, 2012, 09:16:11 AM
My 1st encounter w pam was at the big watch shop at starhill(shifted). They have a display counter but mostly empty. We were told that stock is hard to come by. Being rare, my friend bought one pc at rm30K+.
Fast forward today, pam watches are readily available. I bought two pcs and have since sold the chunky metal 88(it didn't sit well), keeping the 183. I must admit the black seal is one of the most comfy watches alongside with the Rolex oyster casing.
I have attended the recent pam gtg. Pls allow me to pen my observation:
1. OP is a 50 years+ brand. Any company beyond that age usually lasts(unless technology changes like from film to digital-Kodak the victim). No qualms, OP is a serious watch manufacturer though some components maybe outsourced (cayenne and toureg shared the same platform)
2. It possesses a clear DNA, the luminor, radiomir and submersible. In short, the ppl in OP has a roadmap for the future (AP retaining the DNA of the successful ROO, RO). As a result of that, the variation is confine strictly to the dial which serves them well. It is no fault of OP if the ppl spend monies on straps; collecting straps has evolved into serious hobby (it may stunt the sales, one pam 5 straps)
3. OP is moving up the value chain by investing in in-house movement, complication and finishes and setting up stores to increase market presence. In this connection, I believe the operation and 'manufacturing' cost have also gone up. Hence we see more LE, SE and quantities of stocks everywhere.
4. LVMH, Richemont and Swatch are 3 major powerhouse in the fashion world. Be it as time keeping, tools, fashion, status symbol, gifts, collectors item etc, they will explore and exhaust all avenues to sell watches and help meet the annual sales target. "be it black or white, so long the cat catches the mouse". Balancing, leveraging, at all times between profit, sales and R&D. So wis, ristis and all- reality check; watches is an expensive indulgence.
5. The ristis have an unspoken camaraderie. Pam watches almost identical in design and known by numbers, there is unmistakable spirit of fellowship. They will banter about anything and everything from straps to double "11". They feel confident, urbane and 'man', majority below 40's. (in spore, cos of the dollars, they sport APROO for 'man'). Some will phase out(like me, just uncomfortable), new ones will be infected and it goes on. That is the name of the game, a passing phase perhaps; been there, seen it and done that, ya.
6. I reckon it will take a while for pam to be up there amongst the greats. It is very crowded in the USD10k+ market, the consumers are discerning and are demanding. You cannot give them a chunky metal with some SE/LE like "FU"(omg) and ask them to ride with you. There must be more refinement in details and a bigger A&P to do that, among others.
7. We can talk about the calibre or complication or what-have-you. In real life, the vast majority of watch purchasers are as ignorant of cars buyers. Ppl buy because of the brand, price, design colours and top up w some salesmanship. Yes, OP is a watchmaker that happen to cleverly seize that segment of the market.
8. Mwf has a lot of Pam fans, strangely for an independent forum. I have met some of them, likeable blokes and lads (pam gtg). I like to think that our bros msg is well intended. If I understand correctly, they do not wish to see our hard earned(for some, ya) monies depreciated if someday the novelty and euphoria wears off.(some say 'love is blind'). Say what we want on horology or history or product, once a brand premium wears off, it is difficult to push it up again( omega-tough to get it going above USD5k).
Because of the hype on pam in mwf, I think this thread is long overdue. So to the ristis, lets discuss on the topic and go not go overboard. I truly think that those on the other side really meant well.
Thank you.
Post by: Enkidu on September 12, 2012, 09:25:15 AM
8. Mwf has a lot of Pam fans, strangely for an independent forum. I have met some of them, likeable blokes and lads (pam gtg). I like to think that our bros msg is well intended. If I understand correctly, they do not wish to see our hard earned(for some, ya) monies depreciated if someday the novelty and euphoria wears off.(some say 'love is blind'). Say what we want on horology or history or product, once a brand premium wears off, it is difficult to push it up again( omega-tough to get it going above USD5k).
Because of the hype on pam in mwf, I think this thread is long overdue. So to the ristis, lets discuss on the topic and go not go overboard. I truly think that those on the other side really meant well.
Thank you.
Whilst I am not of the most noble character, please be assured that my comments are directed towards the virtue of the OP brand, not the panerai lovers themselves. So, yes, I agree with this statement.
To reply to Sooncheng - No, I got no class. A rough fellow wearing a sub / sinn / glashutte most of the days.
Post by: hanz079 on September 12, 2012, 09:38:28 AM
Pls allow me to join in. I started to dabble into watches some 3 yrs back, jun in mwf.A very very sensible reply.
My 1st encounter w pam was at the big watch shop at starhill(shifted). They have a display counter but mostly empty. We were told that stock is hard to come by. Being rare, my friend bought one pc at rm30K+.
Fast forward today, pam watches are readily available. I bought two pcs and have since sold the chunky metal 88(it didn't sit well), keeping the 183. I must admit the black seal is one of the most comfy watches alongside with the Rolex oyster casing.
I have attended the recent pam gtg. Pls allow me to pen my observation:
1. OP is a 50 years+ brand. Any company beyond that age usually lasts(unless technology changes like from film to digital-Kodak the victim). No qualms, OP is a serious watch manufacturer though some components maybe outsourced (cayenne and toureg shared the same platform)
2. It possesses a clear DNA, the luminor, radiomir and submersible. In short, the ppl in OP has a roadmap for the future (AP retaining the DNA of the successful ROO, RO). As a result of that, the variation is confine strictly to the dial which serves them well. It is no fault of OP if the ppl spend monies on straps; collecting straps has evolved into serious hobby (it may stunt the sales, one pam 5 straps)
3. OP is moving up the value chain by investing in in-house movement, complication and finishes and setting up stores to increase market presence. In this connection, I believe the operation and 'manufacturing' cost have also gone up. Hence we see more LE, SE and quantities of stocks everywhere.
4. LVMH, Richemont and Swatch are 3 major powerhouse in the fashion world. Be it as time keeping, tools, fashion, status symbol, gifts, collectors item etc, they will explore and exhaust all avenues to sell watches and help meet the annual sales target. "be it black or white, so long the cat catches the mouse". Balancing, leveraging, at all times between profit, sales and R&D. So wis, ristis and all- reality check; watches is an expensive indulgence.
5. The ristis have an unspoken camaraderie. Pam watches almost identical in design and known by numbers, there is unmistakable spirit of fellowship. They will banter about anything and everything from straps to double "11". They feel confident, urbane and 'man', majority below 40's. (in spore, cos of the dollars, they sport APROO for 'man'). Some will phase out(like me, just uncomfortable), new ones will be infected and it goes on. That is the name of the game, a passing phase perhaps; been there, seen it and done that, ya.
6. I reckon it will take a while for pam to be up there amongst the greats. It is very crowded in the USD10k+ market, the consumers are discerning and are demanding. You cannot give them a chunky metal with some SE/LE like "FU"(omg) and ask them to ride with you. There must be more refinement in details and a bigger A&P to do that, among others.
7. We can talk about the calibre or complication or what-have-you. In real life, the vast majority of watch purchasers are as ignorant of cars buyers. Ppl buy because of the brand, price, design colours and top up w some salesmanship. Yes, OP is a watchmaker that happen to cleverly seize that segment of the market.
8. Mwf has a lot of Pam fans, strangely for an independent forum. I have met some of them, likeable blokes and lads (pam gtg). I like to think that our bros msg is well intended. If I understand correctly, they do not wish to see our hard earned(for some, ya) monies depreciated if someday the novelty and euphoria wears off.(some say 'love is blind'). Say what we want on horology or history or product, once a brand premium wears off, it is difficult to push it up again( omega-tough to get it going above USD5k).
Because of the hype on pam in mwf, I think this thread is long overdue. So to the ristis, lets discuss on the topic and go not go overboard. I truly think that those on the other side really meant well.
Thank you.
I enjoyed reading it. Thanks :Cheers:
Post by: pexus on September 12, 2012, 09:58:26 AM
When you think it's a fashion brand no matter how much facts and points we share, we cannot change you,unless you started this thread to look for inspiration, to convince yourself to buy a Panerai. Or else this discussion will heading no where.
Thanks for the entertaining sales pitch CK.
Since my discussion ended with Hobbitt yesterday afternoon, all that I have read in this thread are Panerai lovers:
(a) saluting, high-fiving, confirming their mutual brotherhood;
(b) admitting they'll love it even if it's "rubbish" (not my word, please don't blame and attribute this to me); and
(c) admitting my view was right and that OP was a fashion brand all in jest of course;
instead of sharing what the spirit of PAM (as gloomis termed it) is all about. Then I see PAM lovers coming out from the closet in defence and giving the most oft-cited advice when another member shared his negative experience with his PAM111, even recommending he should be getting a rolex.
So, you can't really blame anyone if the discussion is heading no where right? And that is why we are still at where I left it with Hobbitt yesterday afternoon. I read in another thread where another member termed this discussion as silly. All that I can see is that I punctured a big globe of insecurity juice and that is spewing out with vengenace. Enough said friend, not only are we heading no where (contrary to what you wrote), reading the newspaper is getting more interesting....
Its strange..you initiated a thread., with a controversial topic (nothing wrong with that)... .....and to the credit of Pam owners and lovers, many of them came in and spend their time giving their opinion, many with matured reasonings. And to be fair, majority of them responded to almost every point of discussion, no matter where it came from.
And what do we have at the end? These sort of replies from you, the TS.
`...Pam lovers are now coming out of the closet....': fuyoo..they've been hiding? Not that I know of.. :Laughing_on_floor:
`..punctured a big globe of insecurity'. Wow.....big words man....You started a topic and most fella here responded politely in support of the spirit of MWF's open discussion...and this is how you view it? So every time i have a discussion with people and they respond with passion and facts, i just end it off by saying `I've punctured a big globe of insecurity'......cool...
`...Its more interesting to read newspaper'....yeah right....
`..Enough said/leave it as it is'...yep, you tend to use this tactic in middle of discussion when you won't/cant respond?
Not defending the brand or whatever. I dont own one (yet, maybe?) and will certainly be unable to contribute to what has already been said here by those who own a Panerai (be it with good or bad experiences). But as a fellow MWF member following this thread, I dont think you should resort to such replies..
Post by: mnazri.tan on September 12, 2012, 10:09:17 AM
be it a Q&Q watch selling for a gazzilion dollar....you can afford it, your money, do what ever you like..
risti love PAM for its rich history, unique design and the value they perceive on their own eyes....same goes with fan of rolex or whatever brand.....
what is the point of bashing this brand so bad, hurting the feeling of those who love the brand so deeply.....why why why? are we not here merely because of our love to the world of horology.....what with bashing the size as well....there are those whole love big watches...so what, none of them come to you asking for money......
peace and love bro....we are here because we are crazy about watches....just enjoy the varieties la....ok...
Post by: sooncheng1990 on September 12, 2012, 10:25:18 AM
Its strange..you initiated a thread., with a controversial topic (nothing wrong with that)... .....and to the credit of Pam owners and lovers, many of them came in and spend their time giving their opinion, many with matured reasonings. And to be fair, majority of them responded to almost every point of discussion, no matter where it came from.
And what do we have at the end? These sort of replies from you, the TS.
`...Pam lovers are now coming out of the closet....': fuyoo..they've been hiding? Not that I know of.. :Laughing_on_floor:
`..punctured a big globe of insecurity'. Wow.....big words man....You started a topic and most fella here responded politely in support of the spirit of MWF's open discussion...and this is how you view it? So every time i have a discussion with people and they respond with passion and facts, i just end it off by saying `I've punctured a big globe of insecurity'......cool...
`...Its more interesting to read newspaper'....yeah right....
`..Enough said/leave it as it is'...yep, you tend to use this tactic in middle of discussion when you won't/cant respond?
Not defending the brand or whatever. I dont own one (yet, maybe?) and will certainly be unable to contribute to what has already been said here by those who own a Panerai (be it with good or bad experiences). But as a fellow MWF member following this thread, I dont think you should resort to such replies..
Hey Bro, no need to flame it lar....... ;) ;) Endiku and Hobbitt had a good discussion...both parties said their views, then othersd also added. We can judge for ourselves what. Though I do not agree with Endiku, I also cannot agree with his opponents in some area....faIR what. I think both sides also did not answer some questions. and both side have been quite polite...no need to flame this again...adds to nothing.... :Cheers: :Cheers:
Post by: takashi78 on September 12, 2012, 11:09:05 AM
This are the kind of civilized discussion that this forum needs, we might not come to a "conclusion", many topics dont. But at the end i hope we all learn from it. Good or bad.
Now my views,
PAM fashion brand? NO.
I consider fashion watch brands are those which their primary product being fashion items like clothes and such.
Now with the help from Richemont they can produce their own in house movements, but the past 3-5yrs the QC has not been too good from the ones i can see.
To me the BIG fail is the small balance on such a big watch, much like the new IWC Portofino 8days.
My limited love for the brand and model is from the days of the Unitas movts. 111, 183.
Some questions though, hope you all can enlighten me.
1 - When did the PAMs started to come with the tools to change straps?
2 - So were the brand "encouraging" the users to change straps?
Cant help but to be amazed such a single brand brought a whole new mushroom industry of "strap makers" suddenly pooping up.
Post by: Kennypane on September 12, 2012, 11:49:44 AM
Post by: tonykpk on September 12, 2012, 01:15:41 PM
If i may add, i dont think Panerai deliberately produce their watches so that owners can easily change straps. The earlier produced for real army, lugs were soldered on so no way u can change straps easily. U have to destroy the straps and sew them back on. Probably after the revival of the brand in the 1990s, Panerai has to catch up with the times, like other brands, strap changing should be made easier, and u have die hard fans who love strap variation which caused it to be more fashionable with different straps.The one with the soldered lugs was Rolex produced pocket watch sold to Panerai to be made into wrist watches in the mid 30"s till end of 40"s . correct me if I'm wrong .regards tony
Post by: Enkidu on September 12, 2012, 01:46:54 PM
Wow this thread moved faster than i thought ;D
This are the kind of civilized discussion that this forum needs, we might not come to a "conclusion", many topics dont. But at the end i hope we all learn from it. Good or bad.
Now my views,
PAM fashion brand? NO.
I consider fashion watch brands are those which their primary product being fashion items like clothes and such.
Now with the help from Richemont they can produce their own in house movements, but the past 3-5yrs the QC has not been too good from the ones i can see.
To me the BIG fail is the small balance on such a big watch, much like the new IWC Portofino 8days.
My limited love for the brand and model is from the days of the Unitas movts. 111, 183.
Some questions though, hope you all can enlighten me.
1 - When did the PAMs started to come with the tools to change straps?
2 - So were the brand "encouraging" the users to change straps?
Cant help but to be amazed such a single brand brought a whole new mushroom industry of "strap makers" suddenly pooping up.
Peter,
No, I don't believe OP expressly and openly encourages its customers to change straps frequently, but neither does SWATCH (not the group but the plastic watch). Having said that, like SWATCH, Panerai sells a large range of straps with lots of different shades and colours (including the less conventional colous). For those who have not checked, just go to OP's official web site, go to accessories. Out pop a long list of strap/watch measurement, each item on the list will in turn contain a sublist of straps.
Not unlike Ulysses having to navigate between the Scylla and Charybdis, I'll (wisely) keep my comments to what's factual and empirical above - members can draw their own conclusion what this means as regards strapchanging & the temptation to change straps and how this ultimately reflect upon the brand.
Post by: Plankton-IkanBilis on September 12, 2012, 01:55:14 PM
Post by: sattha61 on September 12, 2012, 02:37:55 PM
Wasn't it Odysseus...well, i may hv gotten my greek mythology mixed up.
Ullyses is the Roman name for Odysseus. The same person.
Post by: Plankton-IkanBilis on September 12, 2012, 03:50:57 PM
Ullyses is the Roman name for Odysseus. The same person.
[/quote]
:thumbsup:
Post by: TheHobbit on September 12, 2012, 04:26:47 PM
No, I don't believe OP expressly and openly encourages its customers to change straps frequently, but neither does SWATCH (not the group but the plastic watch). Having said that, like SWATCH, Panerai sells a large range of straps with lots of different shades and colours (including the less conventional colous). For those who have not checked, just go to OP's official web site, go to accessories. Out pop a long list of strap/watch measurement, each item on the list will in turn contain a sublist of straps.
Not unlike Ulysses having to navigate between the Scylla and Charybdis, I'll (wisely) keep my comments to what's factual and empirical above - members can draw their own conclusion what this means as regards strapchanging & the temptation to change straps and how this ultimately reflect upon the brand.
I do not deny the fact that the list is extensive and the colours varied, but to make thing clear, least we come to the wrong conclusion:
1. The fact that most Panerai watches comes with 2 straps, usually one leather and the other rubber or velcro or coramid straps.
2. Panerai does have watches in the following sizes: 40, 42, 44, 45, 47 and larger sizes and these watches comes with different size straps and even between models, different colour straps or material.
3. Leather, rubber, cloth and velcro do not last as long as metal bracelets. Just to highlight, I myself have gone through 3 sets of straps on one of my watches as I use it almost daily.
Yes, some of the colours are a 'tad bright' but they are there to facilitate those who are more fashion conscious amongst us and also for the fairer sex who may not want the typical boring black strap.
And to answer you question Peter:
1 - When did the PAMs started to come with the tools to change straps?
Since 1997/1998 when Panerai watches were sold to the general public.
2 - So were the brand "encouraging" the users to change straps?
Actually no. In the early days, Panerai actually prevented independent strap makers from using their watches to showcase these independent straps. However, along the way, they realised that this trend of changing straps would not stop, so I guess they took the decision to join the band wagon and make some money from this trend. However, I don't think this is really a big business for Panerai as from what you can see, there are hardly any Panerai collectors that will post pictures of their latest Panerai straps favouring the independents. Additionally, if you go to the boutiques or even the Ad, you will be hard pressed to see the entire collection of Panerai straps. Most of the time you would have to order the straps.
Post by: fidoneo on September 12, 2012, 04:36:12 PM
Dear members,
It has always been my opinion that Officine Panerai is not a watchmaking company but a just fashion house like DKNY, Dior, ...etc.
Panerai watches are all more about looks + aesthetics. Panerai lovers' obsession with the leather straps and the multitude of companies making straps for these watches partly support this view. When the watches do not come with see-through casebacks, I have seen photos of the movement underneath being not just undecorated, but downright raw and rough. This is evidence that the company is more concerned about cosmetics than the actual performance of the watches themselves (considering the movement is the heart of a watch). Companies like Stowa and Steinhart (or even Sea-Gull) have more self-respect than these Italians.
Considering their sizes, they look awkward as dress watches. Whilst some models have rotating bezel for diving, the majority don't - hence although these watches are claimed to be rated to 300m, they are practically useless as diving watches. In fact, it is not entirely clear which genre these watches belong to, except that they function as strong fashion statements for young people who want to appear bold and confident.
Their sale strategy (with countless special editions) shows they are not in the business of making good watches, but are here to play with human emotions and lust for exclusivity.
Let the discussion begin!!!
Hi mate,
Happy morning!
This is for more pleasure than reading the newspaper. ;D
Officine Panerai just a fashion house?
I really hope I can buy some jeans and shoes from them,this will save me a lots of trouble in mixing and matching my daily outfit.I'm a shoe and jeans freaks btw.
DKNY?!?!? :o
Come on mate, a bit too harsh.Better compare with Cartier,Chanel and Hermes etc..more classy!
When you think it's a fashion brand no matter how much facts and points we share, we cannot change you,unless you started this thread to look for inspiration, to convince yourself to buy a Panerai. Or else this discussion will heading no where.
If you think OP is a fashion house like DKNY,Dior, just walk away from this brand.
What I can say is wearing an oversized watches(or a clock) is DA trend now.OP basically offer a whole lots of selection when you decided to follow the trend. Even some so called "self respected, well known, historical blah blah " watchmaker brand have to follow the trend.Upsize their watch casing. What to do thats what's the market demands.
Therefor OP is a trendy watchmaker,I still can accept la.
"This is evidence that the company is more concerned about cosmetics than the actual performance of the watches themselves (considering the movement is the heart of a watch). Companies like Stowa and Steinhart (or even Sea-Gull) have more self-respect than these Italians."
If you are referring to the PAM00318 issue,I have no comment,
but then again, OP have a lots more pieces with well decorated movements, try google PAM00317K,PAM00319,PAM00348,PAM00350,PAM36500,PAM36501 and PAM36502 I find the movement underneath those robust casing makes them quite a Heart!
Sea gull? no way..try handle their tourby!
"Considering their sizes, they look awkward as dress watches. Whilst some models have rotating bezel for diving, the majority don't - hence although these watches are claimed to be rated to 300m, they are practically useless as diving watches."
Some are claimed to be rated 2500m and with fugly rotating bezel! :P
Y useless? I don't quite understand.but i guess not many people will dive with their precious collection. I dive with my rollie(rated 300m) seiko(200m) Sinn(1000m) before,practically they are useless too.I look at my dive computer more!
I just want to find out the money I spent on the so called diver's watch whether they are truly water resistant, but I can only dive for ~20m. :-\
If you are happy with a 36mm dress watch, by all means, stick with it.don't bother about what other's are wearing.
"Their sale strategy (with countless special editions) shows they are not in the business of making good watches, but are here to play with human emotions and lust for exclusivity."
Buying is emotional, I think majority of the WIS will agree with me, when you finally bagged something is highly sought after and it's rare,you emotion will take over:)
Special edition is an useful and effective marketing strategy!Way too many special edition? from the company point of view, why not?
This is a very useful trick to generate more income from a particular cash cow from a brand.All the company like SE,Limited edition,etc,
In conjunction with the opening of new boutique worldwide, therefore you'll see more all look the same Se/BE. what to do, can sell ma.
To me watch collecting is a passion!It's a fun thing to do!
Mate, seek value!
Seek value in whatever we like and dislike,what others like, we will have more fun!
I still enjoy my oversize DYN...opps..OP, even a lots of ppl say I'm wearing a clock on my wrist,I take it as a compliment. ;D
Just my 2 cents.
:Cheers:
ck
:thumbsup: well said ck ...
Post by: Enkidu on September 12, 2012, 04:50:55 PM
However, I don't think this is really a big business for Panerai as from what you can see, there are hardly any Panerai collectors that will post pictures of their latest Panerai straps favouring the independents. Additionally, if you go to the boutiques or even the Ad, you will be hard pressed to see the entire collection of Panerai straps. Most of the time you would have to order the straps.
Hobbitt,
I have not done a full survey of the price of a PAM strap vs. one from the independents (and I know they come in large price spectrum), but just with a broad brush, could the Panerai collectors be favouring the independents because the straps are relatively more affordable, ie the cost factor. It's like people going for the Banda diving strap instead of the original & more expensive seiko DALOAZ-22 strap. - Add note: And there are also "indpendent makers" of SWATCH strap. Except they are called "aftermarket" or worse "fakes". I myself bought one for RM 8 when my son's original SWATCH strap broke.
If you go into a SWATCH shop, you will also not find the entire range of strap, and if you want a particular design, you will have to order. So, what's the difference? To me boutiques not having all the straps is a neutral and inconsequential issue because this could be caused by the need to minimise the inventory.
Your learned view will be appreciated,
Post by: TheHobbit on September 12, 2012, 05:38:06 PM
Hobbitt,
I have not done a full survey of the price of a PAM strap vs. one from the independents (and I know they come in large price spectrum), but just with a broad brush, could the Panerai collectors be favouring the independents because the straps are relatively more affordable, ie the cost factor. It's like people going for the Banda diving strap instead of the original & more expensive seiko DALOAZ-22 strap. - Add note: And there are also "indpendent makers" of SWATCH strap. Except they are called "aftermarket" or worse "fakes". I myself bought one for RM 8 when my son's original SWATCH strap broke.
If you go into a SWATCH shop, you will also not find the entire range of strap, and if you want a particular design, you will have to order. So, what's the difference? To me boutiques not having all the straps is a neutral and inconsequential issue because this could be caused by the need to minimise the inventory.
Your learned view will be appreciated,
With regards to Swatch, I would guess that they do not keep stock as you say to minimise stock as they have lots, and I mean lots of straps considering the number of watches they have, but we are here to talk about Panerai and not Swatch. Which by the way is a serious and true watch maker, but that is another story.
With regards to pricing, yes, the independents can be cheaper as compared to Panerai own straps, which starts at around Rm400 to about RM800. As for the independents, you can get a cheap strap for about RM40, but that is if you trust your RM12,000 watch on a RM40 strap. Most of the straps that are favoured by Panerai collectors cost about the same as the Panerai original. Some good ones do cost a lot more then the Panerai original. The main reason these collectors change the straps is because they want something different from the Panerai standard offering, which are replacement straps for the standard issued with the watch. They may want straps made from ammo pouches from the second world war, they may want larger scales on their crocodile straps, they may want straps that look like the original panerai straps from the 40s, 50s, or 60s like the 74 straps. They may want straps that comes with the older GPF sewn buckle. There can be a host of other reasons. They may be the fact that you can get another look with just a simple strap change. They may want a proper black leather strap for work and a rough tumble strap for after work.
Post by: dpkong on September 12, 2012, 05:58:44 PM
(http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t477/kentkoh79/20120820_f502ed073aea63dc31e3925qU3dbNA4i.jpg)
Panerai looks at its best on a female wrist !! :Cheers: :Laughing_on_floor:
:Startled: :Startled:
WOW... nice shape. but where's the watch ? ? ? ? ?
I wonder what the guy in the lower left of the pic is thinking...
Post by: sooncheng1990 on September 12, 2012, 06:58:01 PM
Wow this thread moved faster than i thought ;D
This are the kind of civilized discussion that this forum needs, we might not come to a "conclusion", many topics dont. But at the end i hope we all learn from it. Good or bad.
Yes Bro Takashi-san, definitely learned a lot, not just about PAM both good and bad....but also debating strategy.... :laugh: :laugh:
This Bro Endiku is tricky lah..... ;D ;D. Pexus was right, it was tactic. A lot like my business negotiation and strategy workshop last year. Issue: How to deal with a powerful or a lot of opponents? First you dictate the issue (Risti made first mistake letting him defines what is fashion watch), then you let your opponents expose themselves. Then you attack their weakness and mistakes. Pull back to organize your defense.....that's when Endiku said "Enough said, we are going nowhere"...Actually this was just his tactic (Pexus was right) to pull back into a good defense position, wait for Risti to attack and make mistake because you Ristis relax yourselves. After that he will attack hardest on your weak points and mistakes. He will also pretend weak, avoid issues, make jokes about you, but always waiting to attack to finish you off properly. Tactic, yes.....but his knowledge is quite wide. So he can wait for his time and let you make mistakes.... :thumbsup: :thumbsup: But hard to accept his extreme views that PAM=DKNY or SWATCH. But good try..... :laugh:
Bro Endiku, your real name is Andy Khoo? Can be my business strategy mentor?? :Laughing_on_floor:
Post by: ckcspice on September 12, 2012, 07:33:11 PM
there r many reasons y we buy watches ie. to tell time, to show off, to join the gang, to satisfy one's own childhood dream, to impress girls, to appreciate the craftsmanship, etc...n the list goes on....most importantly is we feel happy after we spend the $$...cheers
one man's meat is another man's poison...dont think any persuasion or opinions from either side of the camp will sway anyone to defect n switch sides :) ....so just buy what u like with ur own hard earned money....doesnt matter wat other folks say bout how u spend ur RM30k or RM100k...as long as u r happy....Agreed CK, but there are people buying on impulse, follow the herd mentality buying (like some people are wearing it I've got to get one). At the end of the day they might " owned many knives but none is sharp". regards tony
Post by: Enkidu on September 12, 2012, 07:41:49 PM
With regards to Swatch, I would guess that they do not keep stock as you say to minimise stock as they have lots, and I mean lots of straps considering the number of watches they have, but we are here to talk about Panerai and not Swatch. Which by the way is a serious and true watch maker, but that is another story.
With regards to pricing, yes, the independents can be cheaper as compared to Panerai own straps, which starts at around Rm400 to about RM800. As for the independents, you can get a cheap strap for about RM40, but that is if you trust your RM12,000 watch on a RM40 strap. Most of the straps that are favoured by Panerai collectors cost about the same as the Panerai original. Some good ones do cost a lot more then the Panerai original. The main reason these collectors change the straps is because they want something different from the Panerai standard offering, which are replacement straps for the standard issued with the watch. They may want straps made from ammo pouches from the second world war, they may want larger scales on their crocodile straps, they may want straps that look like the original panerai straps from the 40s, 50s, or 60s like the 74 straps. They may want straps that comes with the older GPF sewn buckle. There can be a host of other reasons. They may be the fact that you can get another look with just a simple strap change. They may want a proper black leather strap for work and a rough tumble strap for after work.
Thanks Hobbit, Fair enough an answer. I believe we know where each other is coming from so there is no need realy to advance this any further. And no, this is not another devious strategy on my part (as fellow member Sooncheng is saying).
To Sooncheng: No my name is not Andy Khoo, neither is it Andy Lau. Actually my handle reads Enkidu - from the story of Gilgamesh and Enkidu. And no, I don't think I am qualified to mentor anyone on any subject. I don't know how you could have read so much into (and sensationalised) what I wrote. You have high potential as a fiction author like Dan Brown or Clive Cussler. Keep it up.
Post by: bryankwc on September 12, 2012, 08:36:49 PM
Provocative topic, leading to a truly interesting thread with lots of passionate views & even more info for newbies (to this hobby).
I LIKE! :Dancing_banana:
What? No 'LIKE' button? ???
Anyways, thanks to all members who contributed cos i found this thread to be most interesting & enlightening.
Personally, I believe that each man's (or woman) taste is different & most of the time what we wear on our wrist is a fashion statement - whether we are conscious of it or not.
Peace & Prosperity to all.
Take care, Ciao! :thumbsup:
Post by: Kennypane on September 12, 2012, 11:11:09 PM
Post by: landyshah on September 13, 2012, 12:14:37 PM
Since I long time didnt post, since this is free and open forum, and its a free world discussion on a brand, may I add my opinion?
PAM is overrrated fashion junk and I wouldnt be caught dead wearing one ;D
Of course its every individuals money to spend as they wish and wear what they like. If PAM fans like what they wear and are happy, I'm happy for them too ;D
Post by: zameenzahari on September 13, 2012, 12:35:36 PM
Ah...this subject has been debated ad nauseum in other forums.
Since I long time didnt post, since this is free and open forum, and its a free world discussion on a brand, may I add my opinion?
PAM is overrrated fashion junk and I wouldnt be caught dead wearing one ;D
Of course its every individuals money to spend as they wish and wear what they like. If PAM fans like what they wear and are happy, I'm happy for them too ;D
very constructive comments. Panerai are junks, contemporary rolexes are bling...I guess you must be wearing either the AP Royal Oak Grande Complication or the Maître du Temps Chapter One on your wrist.
Post by: landyshah on September 13, 2012, 01:07:43 PM
I seriously doubt if any constructive comments can arise out of a topic like this anyway. Its all theoretical and personal opinions. The OP stated his view, I agree with him. Others may not.
No I dont have expensive watches of that calibre - does one need be loaded to share his opinion on this forum?
Post by: fidoneo on September 13, 2012, 01:11:37 PM
Ah...this subject has been debated ad nauseum in other forums.
Since I long time didnt post, since this is free and open forum, and its a free world discussion on a brand, may I add my opinion?
PAM is overrrated fashion junk and I wouldnt be caught dead wearing one ;D
Of course its every individuals money to spend as they wish and wear what they like. If PAM fans like what they wear and are happy, I'm happy for them too ;D
very constructive comments. Panerai are junks, contemporary rolexes are bling...I guess you must be wearing either the AP Royal Oak Grande Complication or the Maître du Temps Chapter One on your wrist.
:thumbsup: zz..
Post by: Godzillaz on September 13, 2012, 01:21:51 PM
If I go in your house and trash talk your wife but later say "actually that's only my opinion, if you're happy you got a ugly wife then I'm happy for you"
Will you stay civilized?
Yes is an open forum but that doesn't mean we don't try to be sensitive in others feeling when we post.
Treat others like we want to be treated, man. :Cheers: I'm sure it wasn't your intention to upset ZZ ;D
Regards
Tyler
Chill man, its my view, nothing more. You have yours and I respect it ;D
I seriously doubt if any constructive comments can arise out of a topic like this anyway. Its all theoretical and personal opinions. The OP stated his view, I agree with him. Others may not.
No I dont have expensive watches of that calibre - does one need be loaded to share his opinion on this forum?
Post by: fidoneo on September 13, 2012, 01:24:48 PM
Ah...this subject has been debated ad nauseum in other forums.
Since I long time didnt post, since this is free and open forum, and its a free world discussion on a brand, may I add my opinion?
PAM is overrrated fashion junk and I wouldnt be caught dead wearing one ;D
Of course its every individuals money to spend as they wish and wear what they like. If PAM fans like what they wear and are happy, I'm happy for them too ;D
Overrated fashion junk ? Wow that's harsh ... Some of our collections here are even worth more than your house or ride young man . Keep those harsh comments back at your own yard.. :Scolding:
Peace
Overrated Fashion junkie...
Post by: Godzillaz on September 13, 2012, 01:27:33 PM
I'm scare to see you like this :o
LOL
Regards
Tyler
Ah...this subject has been debated ad nauseum in other forums.
Since I long time didnt post, since this is free and open forum, and its a free world discussion on a brand, may I add my opinion?
PAM is overrrated fashion junk and I wouldnt be caught dead wearing one ;D
Of course its every individuals money to spend as they wish and wear what they like. If PAM fans like what they wear and are happy, I'm happy for them too ;D
Overrated fashion junk ? Wow that's harsh ... Some of our collections here are even worth more than your house or ride young man . Keep those harsh comments back at your own yard.. :Scolding:
Peace
Overrated Fashion junkie...
Post by: fidoneo on September 13, 2012, 01:29:39 PM
Now you done did it. Calm down, calm down, stay cool. :Praying:
I'm scare to see you like this :o
LOL
Regards
Tyler
I am cool bro... Hehehe ;DAh...this subject has been debated ad nauseum in other forums.
Since I long time didnt post, since this is free and open forum, and its a free world discussion on a brand, may I add my opinion?
PAM is overrrated fashion junk and I wouldnt be caught dead wearing one ;D
Of course its every individuals money to spend as they wish and wear what they like. If PAM fans like what they wear and are happy, I'm happy for them too ;D
Overrated fashion junk ? Wow that's harsh ... Some of our collections here are even worth more than your house or ride young man . Keep those harsh comments back at your own yard.. :Scolding:
Peace
Overrated Fashion junkie...
Post by: tonykpk on September 13, 2012, 01:37:14 PM
Post by: landyshah on September 13, 2012, 01:45:56 PM
Rather, this thread was one to discuss and express opinions on the brand.
I expressed mine and the reason why I wouldnt buy one. I'm sure those who are fans these watches have equally strong opinions.
Thus we agree to differ on the watch brand alone
I do not see the need to be personal and judge people on what they drive or where they live. Especially when you have no idea about them.
Anyway the OP has stated that there is no point in advancing the issue, so peace and enjoy your watches.
Post by: gloomis on September 13, 2012, 01:46:32 PM
Please stay focus people , don't over kill or too personal. regards tony..
I do agreed with you on the focus but also be remind that also please care about others feeling. some comments you can keep it to your own and repeating it during your own shower time or whatever. dont simply comment where it will hurt others feeling.
we are all adult enough to differentiate what should talk and what shoud not talk.
Post by: wslee on September 13, 2012, 01:59:19 PM
OP whether a fashion watch or not.thats for oneself to decide.
All I can say if you like the watch,who care is fashion watch or not.is always for our syok sendiri factor.so don't bother much about what others say.*reality is a lot of us buy is to show off our status*
To all watch lovers,cheers!!!!! :Cheers:
Post by: hanz079 on September 13, 2012, 02:13:44 PM
Does your opinion need to be held in a higher manner just because your collection is worth more than a house or a car ??? ???Ah...this subject has been debated ad nauseum in other forums.
Since I long time didnt post, since this is free and open forum, and its a free world discussion on a brand, may I add my opinion?
PAM is overrrated fashion junk and I wouldnt be caught dead wearing one ;D
Of course its every individuals money to spend as they wish and wear what they like. If PAM fans like what they wear and are happy, I'm happy for them too ;D
Overrated fashion junk ? Wow that's harsh ... Some of our collections here are even worth more than your house or ride young man . Keep those harsh comments back at your own yard.. :Scolding:
Peace
Overrated Fashion junkie...
Post by: sattha61 on September 13, 2012, 02:15:34 PM
Admit it. There are millions of diver watches out there but how many actually use it to dive. You may argue you need a good water resistant watch to wear when swimming. Fair enough. There are plenty of good less well known watches with 300M To 600M rating out there to wear to go swimming without having to fork so much money out for a Rolex. We buy expensive branded watches to show off because we can afford it. It becomes a fashion statement.
So, if you ask me if Officine Panerai is a just a fashion house? Honestly, I do not know. Do not understand high fashion to comment on it. But I will say that wearing a Panerai watch is a fashion statement. It is just a watch movement with dial and hands housed in a very heavily overpriced block of steel.
A tool is a tool, but when you start paying gadzillion amount of money for a tool that is probably a little better than a very much cheaper tool doing the same thing, you are trying to make a statement. That statement is I can afford it and I want to show off.
Post by: TheHobbit on September 13, 2012, 02:39:53 PM
This thread was not a Panerai worship thread, if it was, then sure I would respect the OP and the sentiment of the participants.
Rather, this thread was one to discuss and express opinions on the brand.
I expressed mine and the reason why I wouldnt buy one. I'm sure those who are fans these watches have equally strong opinions.
Thus we agree to differ on the watch brand alone
I do not see the need to be personal and judge people on what they drive or where they live. Especially when you have no idea about them.
Anyway the OP has stated that there is no point in advancing the issue, so peace and enjoy your watches.
Landyshah,
Care elaborate why you consider Panerai overrated fashion junk?
Post by: TheHobbit on September 13, 2012, 02:46:09 PM
If you strip down a Panerai against say a Parnis mechanical watch is there actually much of a difference between them? Both have a watch movement, a metal housing, dial and hands. That is basically it. Both watches tell time, which is basically why we wear a watch on our wrist in the first place. But if both tell time why not pay just a few hundred ringgit for a Parnis instead of forking out 20K+ for a Panerai? That's where the human ego comes to play. What started as a need became a want because we have the money to fuel it. Eventually, because we can afford it we buy more and more expensive watches not so much to tell time but basically to show off.
Admit it. There are millions of diver watches out there but how many actually use it to dive. You may argue you need a good water resistant watch to wear when swimming. Fair enough. There are plenty of good less well known watches with 300M To 600M rating out there to wear to go swimming without having to fork so much money out for a Rolex. We buy expensive branded watches to show off because we can afford it. It becomes a fashion statement.
So, if you ask me if Officine Panerai is a just a fashion house? Honestly, I do not know. Do not understand high fashion to comment on it. But I will say that wearing a Panerai watch is a fashion statement. It is just a watch movement with dial and hands housed in a very heavily overpriced block of steel.
A tool is a tool, but when you start paying gadzillion amount of money for a tool that is probably a little better than a very much cheaper tool doing the same thing, you are trying to make a statement. That statement is I can afford it and I want to show off.
Does this not apply to all watches? You can tell time with your phone, in our car, in the office on our computer. We all here, I am sure all agree that watches to a certain extent are luxuries. To some of us, any watch above rm1,000 is a luxury. To some people more, to some people less.
Post by: Godzillaz on September 13, 2012, 02:51:37 PM
You're correct. Lotsa of ppl buy panerai because they wanna show off which is the main reason I stay away from the brand a few years ago. However there are others who buy the watches not because the wanna show off. I actually appreciate the history part of the brand.
Is like antique furniture.
Way overprice for something to put your ass on but there are ppl out there who appreciate the craftmanship and the ageing of the woods. Of course the owner can show off he got a high price piece of dead tree that only serve the function to be sit on. I think that too but I understand the charm where time have come into play. I often quote this to vintage watch newbie "Time is a great artist if you allow it to be"
I suspect most antique furniture collector don't show off their collection to non enthusiast. Why? Cos is damn weird! (few guys circling around a coach like they are termites exterminator is creepy :o)
That don't mean I go out and announce to the world that these ppl are freaks and what they do is stupid. Which is what I feel on this thread.
My initial thought on this thread is for us to learn but it sort of become a center for crucifixion. Why we see this type of behavior on a watch forum is beyond me.
Yes everyone is entitle to their own opinion ... ... but that is as long as expressing of your own opinion does not cause emotional stress or interfere with others personal right or freedom. Some of us are lawyers and we know well what that statement means.
We all come here to learn and share, not be ridicule or single out.
I sincerely hope you manage to see my view. Not to agree but just a simple understanding is more than I can ask.
Regards
Tyler
If you strip down a Panerai against say a Parnis mechanical watch is there actually much of a difference between them? Both have a watch movement, a metal housing, dial and hands. That is basically it. Both watches tell time, which is basically why we wear a watch on our wrist in the first place. But if both tell time why not pay just a few hundred ringgit for a Parnis instead of forking out 20K+ for a Panerai? That's where the human ego comes to play. What started as a need became a want because we have the money to fuel it. Eventually, because we can afford it we buy more and more expensive watches not so much to tell time but basically to show off.
Admit it. There are millions of diver watches out there but how many actually use it to dive. You may argue you need a good water resistant watch to wear when swimming. Fair enough. There are plenty of good less well known watches with 300M To 600M rating out there to wear to go swimming without having to fork so much money out for a Rolex. We buy expensive branded watches to show off because we can afford it. It becomes a fashion statement.
So, if you ask me if Officine Panerai is a just a fashion house? Honestly, I do not know. Do not understand high fashion to comment on it. But I will say that wearing a Panerai watch is a fashion statement. It is just a watch movement with dial and hands housed in a very heavily overpriced block of steel.
A tool is a tool, but when you start paying gadzillion amount of money for a tool that is probably a little better than a very much cheaper tool doing the same thing, you are trying to make a statement. That statement is I can afford it and I want to show off.
Post by: Enkidu on September 13, 2012, 02:55:57 PM
Overrated fashion junk ? Wow that's harsh ... Some of our collections here are even worth more than your house or ride young man . Keep those harsh comments back at your own yard.. :Scolding:
Peace
Overrated Fashion junkie...
Unless you know landyshah personally, it is rather dangerous to have this sort of response. For all we know, landyshah could be a "man in yellow" (I guess you should understand what I mean and no, I am not referring to the DIGI man).
Post by: Enkidu on September 13, 2012, 03:02:41 PM
That don't mean I go out and announce to the world that these ppl are freaks and what they do is stupid. Which is what I feel on this thread.
Godzilla, has anyone here called another a freak and what they do is stupid?
Post by: Vintimes on September 13, 2012, 03:07:50 PM
But it is definitely look cool for those with big wrist. I have to say Panerai has gotten lot of attention in last 5 years, and also pushing the value up. Like most companies they started with ETA movement, which is easier to buy without much investment, but since they have done so well, naturally they have ventured into in House Movement now, just like how Tag Heuer started long ago. I will love to own one eventually, but always wondering how that big watch look on my hand.. kind of funny, and started to feel Rolex is kind of small for the first time.
Is Panerai a fashion house? I don't think so, they are into Military watch for Italy Navy long ago, and it is definitely a respected name in watch industry, not like other real fashion oriented brand like Cartier or Chorpard.
I am sure a lot of Paneraian will agree with me.. even I am not a Panerai fan... maybe one day... :))
Post by: JOS2012 on September 13, 2012, 03:30:58 PM
a respected name in watch industry, not like other real fashion oriented brand like Cartier or Chorpard.
I am sure a lot of Paneraian will agree with me.. even I am not a Panerai fan... maybe one day... :))
Been reading this entertaining thread which has provided me a window into the various interesting perspectives on OP and to a certain extent the personalities making the various comments..
Not that I am a fence sitter, but I've always practiced the credo that I do not comment on items that do not interest me and even more so, have no knowledge of....
However with this last comment, I'm really curious on whether risti's will agree with the above 'opinion' or not.. interesting...although I hope its Chopard the writer meant and not as per written...
Post by: zameenzahari on September 13, 2012, 03:41:58 PM
Chill man, its my view, nothing more. You have yours and I respect it ;D
I seriously doubt if any constructive comments can arise out of a topic like this anyway. Its all theoretical and personal opinions. The OP stated his view, I agree with him. Others may not.
No I dont have expensive watches of that calibre - does one need be loaded to share his opinion on this forum?
1) Of course you dont need to be loaded to express your views but this is a public forum which talks about watches. I dont think words like 'trash' denotes a common horological description that all of us can understand ?
2) OP used the term fashion watches not 'trash'
3) Taking it outside the world of horology, usually when you call something 'trash', usually you have something much better to benchmark it against, hence the question if you own pieces like the the AP Royal Oak Grande Complication or the Maître du Temps Chapter One. Just curiosity on my part.
4) We are all expressing our views and opinion and I can respect that but this is a public forum and I believe certain standards of decorum and respect should be exercised when expressing one's view. I can understand if the arguement is framed from the perspective of assessing the movement finish, quality of the case, design etc but to just call a brand that some people invested a lot of time and money trash and 'would not be caught dead wearing it' seems a bit harsh.
I really hate to give motherhood statements that might be taken in the wrong light but the forum could be a much better place if we could all pause and give the choice of words some thoughts before hammering the keyboard away.
As a minimum, at least let us know the basis that have led you to conclude the brand that I've been collecting for most of my adult year is trash. hey, I might even agree and sell em all to get the brands that you consider non trash.
please dont view this as a personal attack. If you think it is, then I am apologizing in advance.
Post by: sattha61 on September 13, 2012, 03:46:11 PM
Is like antique furniture.
I do not think comparing a Panerai with antique furniture is a fair and true comparison.
What is a piece of antique furniture?
An antique furniture has many tangible things to it. It was probably made from a species of wood that is now quite rare and difficult to find. The craftsmanship is probably exquisite and if made by a master craftsman even better. It has aged very well for an old piece of wooden furniture. Plus it is rare and probably difficult to find a similar piece.
What is Panerai? It is a company that used to make watches for the Italian military. Fair enough. These days it is making a fortune promoting to the masses that it is hip and vogue to wear a Panerai. The history is in the company not the watch. It is nothing like antique furniture. If you have the money, you can buy multiple copies of the same watch in an instant, assuming off course the AD stocked that many. Not too long ago, it actually housed an independently sourced ETA movement. Only difference between it and another much cheaper watch housing the same movement is that oversized block of steel and the brand name Panerai. And not to mention the over the top price.
Post by: TheHobbit on September 13, 2012, 03:58:09 PM
a respected name in watch industry, not like other real fashion oriented brand like Cartier or Chorpard.
I am sure a lot of Paneraian will agree with me.. even I am not a Panerai fan... maybe one day... :))
Been reading this entertaining thread which has provided me a window into the various interesting perspectives on OP and to a certain extent the personalities making the various comments..
Not that I am a fence sitter, but I've always practiced the credo that I do not comment on items that do not interest me and even more so, have no knowledge of....
However with this last comment, I'm really curious on whether risti's will agree with the above 'opinion' or not.. interesting...although I hope its Chopard the writer meant and not as per written...
Don't know much about Chopard, but with Cartier, the Santos does come to mind.....
Post by: zameenzahari on September 13, 2012, 03:58:48 PM
Is like antique furniture.
INot too long ago, it actually houses an independently sourced ETA movement. Only difference between it and another much cheaper watch housing the same movement is that oversized block of steel and the brand name Panerai. And not to mention the over the top price.
Sorry but there are significant differences between blank ETA ebauches and movement finished and completed by watchmakers like Panerai, IWC etc. In fact there are so many swiss brands that utilizes ETA/Valjoux/third party ebauches that its actually easier to list those that dont : off the top of my head- JLC, Volker Vyskocyl, Dornblüth & Son, Roger Dubuis have been completely independent
Others would have utilized 3rd party movements at some point in their history. So, why just single out Panerai?
Post by: am_sober on September 13, 2012, 03:59:57 PM
just want to lets some of u guys know..
it seems some of u guys got it wrong..
OP = Officine Panerai
TS = Thread Starter
bcoz i think some of u guys got it confused..
The TS is created the thread "Officine Panerai - Just a fashion house?"
u cant refer OP as the TS..
thats all.. tq~
sorry if i got it wrong.
tc cheers~ ^^
:Cheers:
Post by: landyshah on September 13, 2012, 04:04:41 PM
Quote
Care elaborate why you consider Panerai overrated fashion junk?
Hobbit Sir -
Appreciate the measured response, far more engaging than purile emotions from fanboys.
A few times I have attempted to buy a PAM (new and secondhand), but always walked away with some other watch.
I have tried to rationalise it in a few ways, am not going to go into a long and deep discourse, as this brand hardly interests me. Happy to talk about Enicar tho ;D
As far as movements are concerned, as you and Bro Sattha pointed out - its all the same, its just about the image/status thing. I'm not a movement nut - but I'd say Panerai movements arent exactly cutting edge or ground breaking compared to what others like JLC, IWC, Seiko or Omega for example have done over the years.
So it boils down to aesthetics and history for me.
Aesthetics - is subjective of course, but I see very little imagination in the design of PAM watches - more like recycling of the same thing again and again. This is made worse by the whole "LE" thing. They are also too big for my taste.
Perhaps it is because I like older watches that heritage and history matter. In this category, I would compare PAM with brands that use the same "heritage" or "history" marketing angle (Omega/NASA, IWC/RAF pilots, Rolex/Royal Navy/Comex etc).
Yes PAM has some history, but not as great as the marketing would lead us believe.
While all manufacturers are guilty of this (same thing would apply to the Rolex Explorer and Everest), I think PAM has the least substance. The "heritage" is just not convincing enough - i mean the 30s and WW2 is a long time ago...what did they since then? They supplied 300 pieces to the Italian Navy, a few for other navies, and pretty much did nothing throughout to 60s - 90s. Look at the timeline in the website as you can see.
I mean, 300 pieces compared to how many Subs, FFs, Mark XIIs, Seiko Chronos, JSARs, G shocks etc that served in the real military?
Until 1995 and Stallone bought one and it became "fashionable".
Since then it has become "in" and Richemont milked the whole Italian Navy thing to the max.
Hence my conclusion it is a fashion watch with a history blown out of proportion, with a price tag inflated to ride on this "history" and further elevated by so called "limited editions". Horoligically nothing cutting edge or special. While the original design was a classic, they have done nothing significant since.
Again, my opinion. No wrongs or rights. For every one of my arguments, there will be a counter - however am not interested enough in PAMs to go on and on.
Each to his own. :Cheers:
Post by: TheHobbit on September 13, 2012, 04:07:43 PM
Is like antique furniture.
INot too long ago, it actually houses an independently sourced ETA movement. Only difference between it and another much cheaper watch housing the same movement is that oversized block of steel and the brand name Panerai. And not to mention the over the top price.
Sorry but there are significant differences between blank ETA ebauches and movement finished and completed by watchmakers like Panerai, IWC etc. In fact there are so many swiss brands that utilizes ETA/Valjoux/third party ebauches that its actually easier to list those that dont : off the top of my head- JLC, Volker Vyskocyl, Dornblüth & Son, Roger Dubuis have been completely independent
Others would have utilized 3rd party movements at some point in their history. So, why just single out Panerai?
Over the top eta watch? Google this..... Christiaan van der Klaauw - Astrolabium, CKAL2245AS
Post by: sattha61 on September 13, 2012, 04:12:54 PM
QuoteCare elaborate why you consider Panerai overrated fashion junk?
Hobbit Sir -
Appreciate the measured response, far more engaging than purile emotions from fanboys.
A few times I have attempted to buy a PAM (new and secondhand), but always walked away with some other watch.
I have tried to rationalise it in a few ways, am not going to go into a long and deep discourse, as this brand hardly interests me. Happy to talk about Enicar tho ;D
As far as movements are concerned, as you and Bro Sattha pointed out - its all the same, its just about the image/status thing. I'm not a movement nut - but I'd say Panerai movements arent exactly cutting edge or ground breaking compared to what others like JLC, IWC, Seiko or Omega for example have done over the years.
So it boils down to aesthetics and history for me.
Aesthetics - is subjective of course, but I see very little imagination in the design of PAM watches - more like recycling of the same thing again and again. This is made worse by the whole "LE" thing. They are also too big for my taste.
Perhaps it is because I like older watches that heritage and history matter. In this category, I would compare PAM with brands that use the same "heritage" or "history" marketing angle (Omega/NASA, IWC/RAF pilots, Rolex/Royal Navy/Comex etc).
Yes PAM has some history, but not as great as the marketing would lead us believe.
While all manufacturers are guilty of this (same thing would apply to the Rolex Explorer and Everest), I think PAM has the least substance. The "heritage" is just not convincing enough - i mean the 30s and WW2 is a long time ago...what did they since then? They supplied 300 pieces to the Italian Navy, a few for other navies, and pretty much did nothing throughout to 60s - 90s. Look at the timeline in the website as you can see.
I mean, 300 pieces compared to how many Subs, FFs, Mark XIIs, Seiko Chronos, JSARs, G shocks etc that served in the real military?
Until 1995 and Stallone bought one and it became "fashionable".
Since then it has become "in" and Richemont milked the whole Italian Navy thing to the max.
Hence my conclusion it is a fashion watch with a history blown out of proportion, with a price tag inflated to ride on this "history" and further elevated by so called "limited editions". Horoligically nothing cutting edge or special. While the original design was a classic, they have done nothing significant since.
Again, my opinion. No wrongs or rights. For every one of my arguments, there will be a counter - however am not interested enough in PAMs to go on and on.
Each to his own. :Cheers:
Very well written. Could not have said it better. :Cheers:
Post by: sattha61 on September 13, 2012, 04:15:06 PM
So, why just single out Panerai?
Isn't that obvious? This thread is about Panerai isn't it?
Post by: Enkidu on September 13, 2012, 04:25:39 PM
1) Of course you dont need to be loaded to express your views but this is a public forum which talks about watches. I dont think words like 'trash' denotes a common horological description that all of us can understand ?
2) OP used the term fashion watches not 'trash'
3) Taking it outside the world of horology, usually when you call something 'trash', usually you have something much better to benchmark it against, hence the question if you own pieces like the the AP Royal Oak Grande Complication or the Maître du Temps Chapter One. Just curiosity on my part.
4) We are all expressing our views and opinion and I can respect that but this is a public forum and I believe certain standards of decorum and respect should be exercised when expressing one's view. I can understand if the arguement is framed from the perspective of assessing the movement finish, quality of the case, design etc but to just call a brand that some people invested a lot of time and money trash and 'would not be caught dead wearing it' seems a bit harsh.
I really hate to give motherhood statements that might be taken in the wrong light but the forum could be a much better place if we could all pause and give the choice of words some thoughts before hammering the keyboard away.
As a minimum, at least let us know the basis that have led you to conclude the brand that I've been collecting for most of my adult year is trash. hey, I might even agree and sell em all to get the brands that you consider non trash.
please dont view this as a personal attack. If you think it is, then I am apologizing in advance.
Hi, zameen,
No need to apologise, don't suppose anyone here detects any personal attack in your post. Moreover, reading your posts I think you do choose your words quite carefully. I did not fail to notice that you retracted a post concerning some distateful words which I had earlier used (which of course I had voluntarily deleted before that) and I kind of admire your circumspection.
Yes, perhaps "junk" is a rather harsh word. Likewise, Landyshah also in another thread accused contemporary Rolex as bling and the fat hands are ugly......etc. Being a Rolex addict, I could not help but to respond as did some other members. But the tone of the response there and what we find in this thread appear totally different, don't you agree? Perhaps we should all draw a deep breath, sit back and just think. Landyshah's response in both threads though harsh was directed against the brands (PAM and Rolex). He did not call the Rolex wearer an ugly bling bling fellow, nor did he call the PAM lover "junk". Yes, the words were harsh, but when we respond, remember - two wrongs do not make one right.
The focus of this thread is the brand. We discuss the pros and cons of the brand. If we can't do that just because commenting on the brand will hurt the feelings of the supporters of the brand, then what's the purpose of this forum?? Just to post pictures, recommend entry watches below RM 1000, PM each other on discount rates etc?
Very often, we find response like - it's my money, I can buy what I choose, why do you care?? You are right. We don't care. The discussion is about the brands, whether it's about Rolex, PAM or Seikos....etc. It's not about your personal subjective choice and how you spend your money.
- Enkidu
Post by: dpkong on September 13, 2012, 07:33:48 PM
I shall not need to repost as landyshah here put it quite well and I have highlighted some of the prime issues I share.
QuoteCare elaborate why you consider Panerai overrated fashion junk?
Hobbit Sir -
Appreciate the measured response, far more engaging than purile emotions from fanboys.
A few times I have attempted to buy a PAM (new and secondhand), but always walked away with some other watch.
I have tried to rationalise it in a few ways, am not going to go into a long and deep discourse, as this brand hardly interests me. Happy to talk about Enicar tho ;D
As far as movements are concerned, as you and Bro Sattha pointed out - its all the same, its just about the image/status thing. I'm not a movement nut - but I'd say Panerai movements arent exactly cutting edge or ground breaking compared to what others like JLC, IWC, Seiko or Omega for example have done over the years.
So it boils down to aesthetics and history for me.
Aesthetics - is subjective of course, but I see very little imagination in the design of PAM watches - more like recycling of the same thing again and again. This is made worse by the whole "LE" thing. They are also too big for my taste.
Perhaps it is because I like older watches that heritage and history matter. In this category, I would compare PAM with brands that use the same "heritage" or "history" marketing angle (Omega/NASA, IWC/RAF pilots, Rolex/Royal Navy/Comex etc).
Yes PAM has some history, but not as great as the marketing would lead us believe.
While all manufacturers are guilty of this (same thing would apply to the Rolex Explorer and Everest), I think PAM has the least substance. The "heritage" is just not convincing enough - i mean the 30s and WW2 is a long time ago...what did they since then? They supplied 300 pieces to the Italian Navy, a few for other navies, and pretty much did nothing throughout to 60s - 90s. Look at the timeline in the website as you can see.
I mean, 300 pieces compared to how many Subs, FFs, Mark XIIs, Seiko Chronos, JSARs, G shocks etc that served in the real military?
Until 1995 and Stallone bought one and it became "fashionable".
Since then it has become "in" and Richemont milked the whole Italian Navy thing to the max.
Hence my conclusion it is a fashion watch with a history blown out of proportion, with a price tag inflated to ride on this "history" and further elevated by so called "limited editions". Horoligically nothing cutting edge or special. While the original design was a classic, they have done nothing significant since.
Again, my opinion. No wrongs or rights. For every one of my arguments, there will be a counter - however am not interested enough in PAMs to go on and on.
Each to his own. :Cheers:
The most upsetting part is the response from Panerai fans when someone talks down on the brand, examples which can be seen from the posts here.
I'm pretty sure many members here have watch collections or even a single watch worth well more than my "house and ride" combined. But does that mean that your opinions on Panerai must be respected while others who do not have the moolah, need not?
Some of my friends have literally laughed at how stupid I am to pay so much for a Daytona. I did not shoot back and tell them it's worth more than their Proton Saga. Whether we feel ridiculed or slighted is purely up to us, and should not blame the anger on comments made by others. The anger might have come because we do not have security within ourselves and feel that there is some truth in what was said.
And on the history of Panerai, which no doubt there is some, is way over-hyped to justify the asking prices. And I won't even get started on the countless limited editions.
As I posted earlier as well, it is the owners of Panerai that seem to portray the brand as a fashion statement
If you strip down a Panerai against say a Parnis mechanical watch is there actually much of a difference between them? Both have a watch movement, a metal housing, dial and hands. That is basically it. Both watches tell time, which is basically why we wear a watch on our wrist in the first place. But if both tell time why not pay just a few hundred ringgit for a Parnis instead of forking out 20K+ for a Panerai? That's where the human ego comes to play. What started as a need became a want because we have the money to fuel it. Eventually, because we can afford it we buy more and more expensive watches not so much to tell time but basically to show off.
Admit it. There are millions of diver watches out there but how many actually use it to dive. You may argue you need a good water resistant watch to wear when swimming. Fair enough. There are plenty of good less well known watches with 300M To 600M rating out there to wear to go swimming without having to fork so much money out for a Rolex. We buy expensive branded watches to show off because we can afford it. It becomes a fashion statement.
So, if you ask me if Officine Panerai is a just a fashion house? Honestly, I do not know. Do not understand high fashion to comment on it. But I will say that wearing a Panerai watch is a fashion statement. It is just a watch movement with dial and hands housed in a very heavily overpriced block of steel.
A tool is a tool, but when you start paying gadzillion amount of money for a tool that is probably a little better than a very much cheaper tool doing the same thing, you are trying to make a statement. That statement is I can afford it and I want to show off.
For most posts to this topic, there is a gross deviation between whether the owners and makers of Panerai create an image of Panerai as a "fashion house" or if as the original topic asked "Is Officine Panerai just a fashion house".
Also, this topic is purely about asking if Panerai is a fashion brand, not any other brands.
In my views, unless Panerai
1. gets off the poor beaten horse of the Italian Navy watch history
2. gets it's own in-house movement in order (read as do more R&D)
3. comes up with some new innovative designs for watches instead of just 'limited editions" of the same
it will remain, in my view, as just a "fashion brand".
Post by: TheHobbit on September 13, 2012, 08:01:41 PM
Great response and indeed interesting to see your views on the brand and watch. Let me share with you how I view the brand.
A few times I have attempted to buy a PAM (new and secondhand), but always walked away with some other watch.
I have tried to rationalise it in a few ways, am not going to go into a long and deep discourse, as this brand hardly interests me. Happy to talk about Enicar tho ;D
That would be interesting, perhaps one day when and if we ever meet up. I have no knowledge about Enicar
As far as movements are concerned, as you and Bro Sattha pointed out - its all the same, its just about the image/status thing. I'm not a movement nut - but I'd say Panerai movements arent exactly cutting edge or ground breaking compared to what others like JLC, IWC, Seiko or Omega for example have done over the years.
Well, it is true that the modern Panerai (I will get more into this later) had Unitas movement fitted into their watches, but they have since moved into making their own movements. And it is interesting to see the development of their movement since 2005. Power reserve, tourbillon, GMT, etc. While I do not doubt the quality of the movements, but I guess like everything new, there will be hickups along the way. A learning process no doubt. I am sure others have had the same experience. I tend not to comment much on the movement of a watch because I have no expertise in movement making or movement design, so I leave it to the experts.
Anyway, historically Panerai have always used movements from outside, be it Rolex, or Angelus or Unitas. It is not cheap to come out with your own movements.
So it boils down to aesthetics and history for me.
Aesthetics - is subjective of course, but I see very little imagination in the design of PAM watches - more like recycling of the same thing again and again. This is made worse by the whole "LE" thing. They are also too big for my taste.
This is where Panerai marketing sometimes fail in my opinion. Perhaps driven by their collectors and fan boys, the mantra of 47 is the new 44. Panerai does offer watches in other sizes, 40 and 42 mm. You may want to consider these watches. True be told that there will be people who will come and tell you why? 40 and not 44. Well, you have to ask yourself, are you buying for yourself or to satisfy others? I have a white dial Panerai. That is the second ultimate doom in the panerai world, the first being a 40 mm white dial panerai. I don't really care because I like the watch.
With regards to history, Panerai is a 'new' company. Yes, it was founded years ago, but most if not all of its clients have been the military. It only really started to sell commercially to the civilian public in 1998. It did between 1993 to 1997, but that was to test acceptability of a 44 mm size watch by the general public and even that the test markets were limited to only 3 countries. So, Panerai as we know today, is only 15 years old.
The design of the watches can be rather similar at times, as most of the watches that people post or show are the popular ones. They do have lots of designs, but the basic design, the DNA perhaps of the brand, simple and easy to read, forms the basic of every watch. Hence the similarity in the watches. Have a look at the watches in the contemporary collection, the chrono models, the GMT models, submersible etc. Perhaps one of these watches may tickle your fancy? As for me, I like the watches in the historic collection. Yes, all the watches in this collection will all look similar, difference being in the case design, with the sub dial or not, logo or no logo, etc.
Many have said that the watches I have look the same. I understand where they are coming from. The best I can do is to show them the difference and how Panerai have moved towards trying to be as close to the original as they can, thus the move from for example painted dial to sandwich dial. Even the move to have ecru lume. Panerai recognise the wants of its customers for patina without the problems of tritium. I do not doubt that it was also a biz decision to have it done, but at the end of the day, all watch companies have a bottom line to look at and don't owe anybody save its investors and board of directors a living.
As for the SE or LE thing, I agree with you. Something in my opinion Panerai have to look at.
Perhaps it is because I like older watches that heritage and history matter. In this category, I would compare PAM with brands that use the same "heritage" or "history" marketing angle (Omega/NASA, IWC/RAF pilots, Rolex/Royal Navy/Comex etc).
Yes PAM has some history, but not as great as the marketing would lead us believe.
While all manufacturers are guilty of this (same thing would apply to the Rolex Explorer and Everest), I think PAM has the least substance. The "heritage" is just not convincing enough - i mean the 30s and WW2 is a long time ago...what did they since then? They supplied 300 pieces to the Italian Navy, a few for other navies, and pretty much did nothing throughout to 60s - 90s. Look at the timeline in the website as you can see.
I mean, 300 pieces compared to how many Subs, FFs, Mark XIIs, Seiko Chronos, JSARs, G shocks etc that served in the real military?
Until 1995 and Stallone bought one and it became "fashionable".
Since then it has become "in" and Richemont milked the whole Italian Navy thing to the max.
Again to answer your question, Panerai have only been selling to the public since 1997/1998 officially, and even that at about 35,000 pieces a year. Yes, I am sure production has ramped up, but I am sure it does not exceed 50,000 pieces a year. Look at the other brands. They have been selling to the public since day one. Take Rolex for example, close to a million pieces a year. True that only a portion are from the sports collection, but even at 10% that is 100,000 a year. So, it is hard for Panerai to compete historically with these brands, other then its military past. But even then, it has to thread carefully as it does not want to be seen as promoting 'the wrong side'. I am sure had it been on 'the right side', Panerai marketing machinery would be working overtime.
To be honest, excluding Omega with its moon watch (which also has many many LE, 23 at last count) and X-33 (even that we cannot confirm if it still in production for the military and NASA purchase with the last recorded purchase being in 2007?), are the rest of the brands also relying on past glories? OK, Rolex has the deep dive thing it did with James Cameroon, but before that? IWC? with its Top Gun watches? When was the last mk series watches actually used by the military? The fifty fathoms? Look at the BP forum, all talking about the original FF from the 50s and 60s, anything on the new BP FF sports? All from years gone past. Panerai? Last glory most likely Mike Horn and his walk around the North Pole. Somehow I suspect Sir Ranulph Fiennes will be on most people lips compared to Mike Horn. And he had on a Kobold.
Hence my conclusion it is a fashion watch with a history blown out of proportion, with a price tag inflated to ride on this "history" and further elevated by so called "limited editions". Horoligically nothing cutting edge or special. While the original design was a classic, they have done nothing significant since.
My conclusion? I do like the brand, Its history, limited, convoluted, missing in parts, and short in the modern Panerai but it has manage to keep its DNA, its design and what it stand for pretty much intact. A watch that is a tool watch. I may not agree with some of its marketing concepts, its pricing, some of the things that it does, but I do admire it for what it has tried to do. New material, new movements, complications, and all in the past 15 or so years. You have to admit that it is more then what some of the other more established companies have been doing in the same 15 years.
Post by: TheHobbit on September 13, 2012, 08:17:42 PM
In my views, unless Panerai
1. gets off the poor beaten horse of the Italian Navy watch history
2. gets it's own in-house movement in order (read as do more R&D)
3. comes up with some new innovative designs for watches instead of just 'limited editions" of the same
it will remain, in my view, as just a "fashion brand".
Dpkong:
1. I agree with you on this. Perhpas it is time to let people know about the work they do with Mike Horn, restoration work on the Eileen, indirect (perhaps time to get directly involved) work with Malaysian Artist Eng Tay on charitable work with children and the unfortunate....
2. Anything wrong with their in house movements? Any examples?
3. Have you seen the following models:
PAM00396
PAM00275
PAM00319
PAM00348
PAM00350
PAM36500
With regards to the SE/LE I do agree with you.
Post by: pexus on September 13, 2012, 08:59:57 PM
I always hear people associate Panerai with DNA, easy to read, oversized, historical and now, fashion ;D.
Am however, attracted to your statement of it being a tool watch. You own quite a handful of Pams and you dont look like someone that treat watches as safe-queens. Keen to hear your experiences on Panerai as a proper tool watch...
Post by: hanz079 on September 13, 2012, 09:14:41 PM
Every brand is bound to have haters... and also fans...
If all the fans or ristis that you guys are so affectionately called can act with enough class and patience... this thread would only be 3 pages long packed with info...
I do hope that this is the direction of this thread from now on as I am really wanting to know more and also to whomever following this thread... with all the info, you'll never know... you guys might even rope in some new ristis!!
Post by: JPSP on September 13, 2012, 09:19:12 PM
If we look at the motivations behind any watch purchase, we can somehow identify that we buy for several reasons or how we assess brand/make A vs brand/make B when we've limited disposable income. The following are common driving factors:
1. History
2. Movement
3. Aesthetics
4. Reliability
5. Cost/perception of value/affordability
6. Positioning of the brand
History - Pam doesn't have as rich a history as a dive watch compared to BP FF/Rolex
Movement - while it's encouraging and a positive sign that the brand is investing heavily in developing/improving in-house movement, the finishing isn't fantastic and there's nothing to shout about their 3,8,10 days power reserve. Just look at Lange's 31 days power reserve and Rebellion T-1000's 41 days power reserve and these are what i call "know-how"
Aesthetics - probably the first to have a crown guard that makes it an instant hit and recognizable from far...led the trend of 44mm and has a positive spill-over effect on strapmakers' businesses...a pam "character" is largely determined by but not limited to size, patina, sandwich dial, manual/auto movement, 1950 casing, power reserve and the customized straps that owners match them.
Reliability - well, i say pammy has reliable movements similar to many other brands eta/valjoux/selita/inhouse. but they're not exceptional. perhaps all watch brands have been claiming reliability and each has met the minimum industry standard.
Perception of value/cost/affordability - very subjective so i'll leave this out
Positioning - Pam is largely seen as a tool watch. not the dress watch kind...so we should "evaluate" it as that...i remember when i ask if i should get a rose gold version in MWF, i'd replies from sifus here that pammy is not a dress watch and rose gold makes it somewhat "weird"..just like i don't understand why must BP FF has a rose gold version or in future Sinn has a white gold Sinn 1?
If we look at the above points that attempt to illustrate a typical consumer behaviour, we can then see that Pammy, as a tool/dive watch, fares generally well in all aspects but scores very high on aesthetics. My definition of a fashion brand is one brand that consumer can recognize instantly, with generous marketing budgets, commonly owned because people spend on them to "show off" that they can afford it or simply joining the mainstream flow.
Is Rolex a fashion brand then? i say no...
With reference to the Rolex thread, rolex is one weird company that take their time when it comes to innovation and they don't take the "limited edition" route unlike their competitors. A very clean cut, confident, right at your face strategy that is based on the strong belief in their brand equity/loyalty. I admire their innovativeness...whenever they introduce something new...it tends to be very well-thought out...their glidelock clasp, parachom springs, green gold dial for LVc, maxi dial for legibility and etc...in terms of history, they go way back..remember the debate about whether rolex or blancpain holds the claim of being the first diving watch?
Yes i think pammy is a fashion brand now but evolving to become a serious manufacture. That's why they're trying hard to steer clear of that by investing in in-house movements. many made guesses years ago that pam was just a fad and won't last but some forgot that "some fashion becomes classic" (like LV monogram) and Pam have proven many wrong. I think we've yet to see the best from pam...till then...
Post by: dpkong on September 13, 2012, 09:26:27 PM
....
This is where Panerai marketing sometimes fail in my opinion. Perhaps driven by their collectors and fan boys, the mantra of 47 is the new 44. Panerai does offer watches in other sizes, 40 and 42 mm. You may want to consider these watches. True be told that there will be people who will come and tell you why? 40 and not 44. Well, you have to ask yourself, are you buying for yourself or to satisfy others? I have a white dial Panerai. That is the second ultimate doom in the panerai world, the first being a 40 mm white dial panerai. I don't really care because I like the watch.
....
To be really honest, I did at one time get very interested in a 40mm white dial Panerai. But upon more reading of the brand and many posts about the quality and "hype", I decided to pass on it. Especially when many "ristis" seem to consider this an "outcast".
Now with more information coming along, the interest is somewhat renewed. Now if there was a 40mm white dial powered by the Zenith El Primero...
Post by: TheHobbit on September 13, 2012, 09:34:04 PM
Hobbs...
I always hear people associate Panerai with DNA, easy to read, oversized, historical and now, fashion ;D.
Am however, attracted to your statement of it being a tool watch. You own quite a handful of Pams and you dont look like someone that treat watches as safe-queens. Keen to hear your experiences on Panerai as a proper tool watch...
Pexus,
Hahaha the watches have had a hard life. I got my first panerai in 1999. At that time, the ad was begging anybody who showed an interest in the watch to buy it. Lots of ad (no boutiques at that time) did not want to carry the brand back then. Panerai had to rely on big daddy to get these ad to sell the watches. Anyway, I like the watch and as with any watch that I had, I wore it to work and after hours. Pretty stupid back then. Thought what the hell, anything happen to the strap (rubber), can change to leather. After all got two straps.
Rubber and leather don't go well with many fluids. Oil, hydraulic fluids, toilet water, coke (the drink) etc. I actually went thru 3 leather straps and 1 rubber strap. And that was on one watch. When I got my second, I rotated watches, but even then.....
Best part of all was to get replacement straps from Panerai. It was like, what replacement straps? Have to order, don't know when can get. Back then, 2000/2001, independent strap makers did not exist. Getting a replacement strap was close to impossible. When one of the collectors realised that there was an biz opportunity in making straps, it was like a god send.
I still have the scars and nicks and dents and scratches on my panerai watches. Since retirement, the only scratches or damage it gets is when going back to Malaysia and the airport taxi you are in gets into an accident and while you are helping the driver, your watch gets struck and slammed by the boot of the taxi. The dent is still there, a reminder of my trip and the accident the taxi was in.
Now, most of them rest in a watch box waiting for the day when it can see some action again.
Post by: pexus on September 13, 2012, 09:41:28 PM
Hobbs...
I always hear people associate Panerai with DNA, easy to read, oversized, historical and now, fashion ;D.
Am however, attracted to your statement of it being a tool watch. You own quite a handful of Pams and you dont look like someone that treat watches as safe-queens. Keen to hear your experiences on Panerai as a proper tool watch...
........At that time, the ad was begging anybody who showed an interest in the watch to buy it. Lots of ad (no boutiques at that time) did not want to carry the brand back then.....
Gosh.....such times actually existed? And No independent strap makers around?
Sounded like the days when the dodo bird was still around .... ;D
Post by: TheHobbit on September 13, 2012, 09:47:28 PM
To be really honest, I did at one time get very interested in a 40mm white dial Panerai. But upon more reading of the brand and many posts about the quality and "hype", I decided to pass on it. Especially when many "ristis" seem to consider this an "outcast".
Now with more information coming along, the interest is somewhat renewed. Now if there was a 40mm white dial powered by the Zenith El Primero...
Don't think there is a white dial 40 mm white dial zenith power PAM. There is a black dial version. I understand it is pretty robust.
Post by: chrisyen on September 13, 2012, 10:06:57 PM
Hell Yes!!!
But Which brand not a fashion watch???
Come on! U buy rolex bcoz it tells time?
So many bling bling Rolex... Not a fashion watch?
Then y so many Color in watches?
Post by: Kennypane on September 13, 2012, 11:27:28 PM
[/quote] The one with the soldered lugs was Rolex produced pocket watch sold to Panerai to be made into wrist watches in the mid 30"s till end of 40"s . correct me if I'm wrong .regards tony
[/quote]
You are right Tony. How to change straps on soldered lugs. U have to destroy the strap and sew back a new one. They have to modernised the watch case design subsequently, for the modern world.
Post by: Kennypane on September 13, 2012, 11:52:32 PM
Post by: gloomis on September 14, 2012, 06:16:37 AM
So i urge all risti just be with it and let's have party fun in our own party where 3rd MYristi GTG is just around the corner. Let's party hard
Post by: fidoneo on September 14, 2012, 06:50:02 AM
well.....everyone have their own preference and can comments on any others brands.
So i urge all risti just be with it and let's have party fun in our own party where 3rd MYristi GTG is just around the corner. Let's party hard
Yeah.. :thumbsup:
Cheers
Notorious "fanboy"
Post by: nuartogel on September 14, 2012, 07:23:10 AM
Panerai = not DKNY, marc jacobs, adidas, nautica, etc etc
Panerai = not Jaeger Lecoultre, Audemars piguet, Vacheron constantin, etc etc
Panerai = Chopard, Montblanc, Cartier, IWC, etc etc (some outsourced movements, some inhouse)
I may be incorrect about the data stated, but more diplomatic and statistic approach i guess. Then we can put or not put OP in a fashion house category, which i dont think i can.
Thanks
Post by: landyshah on September 14, 2012, 08:38:35 AM
As I leave this thread, i recall a couple of the key statements as my main takeaways:
Starting off with:
"The focus of this thread is the brand. We discuss the pros and cons of the brand. If we can't do that just because commenting on the brand will hurt the feelings of the supporters of the brand, then what's the purpose of this forum??"
And then:
"hey, I might even agree and sell em all to get the brands that you consider non trash."
"Some of our collections here are even worth more than your house or ride young man'"
"dont simply comment where it will hurt others feeling."
And in conclusion:
"Whether we feel ridiculed or slighted is purely up to us, and should not blame the anger on comments made by others. The anger might have come because we do not have security within ourselves and feel that there is some truth in what was said....it is the owners of Panerai that seem to portray the brand as a fashion statement"
Q.E.D. Have a great weekend all !
Post by: Enkidu on September 14, 2012, 10:04:16 AM
Pam is a fashion watch?
Hell Yes!!!
But Which brand not a fashion watch???
Come on! U buy rolex bcoz it tells time?
So many bling bling Rolex... Not a fashion watch?
Then y so many Color in watches?
Hey Chris, if anything I think our discussions helped increase traffic in this forum quite a bit man, I am sure we surpassed Timezone by light years. Any prizes for all of us at the next GTG? Pleeeeaaaaseeee.................... :Praying: :Praying: :Praying:
Post by: chrisyen on September 14, 2012, 10:40:14 AM
Pam is a fashion watch?
Hell Yes!!!
But Which brand not a fashion watch???
Come on! U buy rolex bcoz it tells time?
So many bling bling Rolex... Not a fashion watch?
Then y so many Color in watches?
Hey Chris, if anything I think our discussions helped increase traffic in this forum quite a bit man, I am sure we surpassed Timezone by light years. Any prizes for all of us at the next GTG? Pleeeeaaaaseeee.................... :Praying: :Praying: :Praying:
Mwf is still privately own... No income just out come
I hope the owner heard u ...
Post by: Godzillaz on September 14, 2012, 10:42:41 AM
Do you still want to share passionately what you know and come to love about the brand after all that name calling?
I did and what do I get. Denial and more name calling.
I got disturb when the whole thread turn into poster having a field day at making fun of the owner of panerai watch. I try asking others to be more polite and sensitive.
What's the respond? something like what's the point of this forum if I can't openly express what I feel. Those expression sound more like Criticism to me. When we state our counter points, again with the ignorance and name calling.
Does this sound like a discussion to you. Can you blame others for being upset?
The sole reason I'm writing this post because I believe there are others who are genuinely here to learn about the brand. I don't want them to be misled.
I'm tired of being taking advantage as a target but instead leaving the post and say the hell to all this. I stay on because most of what being said here of Panerai is wrong. Even some of the info from the official website is not accurate.
That's why I find interesting about the brand. The true gems are hidden and it takes times to dig. Most ppl couldn't be bother that included most of the panerai owner.
Why? because is hard and time consuming. It's what this hobby is all about reading and finding more about the watch we love or don't know about.
I know I'll get another blast from this post so it will probably be my last post on this thread.
I'll leave you this. No brand have more variable of movement in their watches than Panerai. Not Rolex, Glashutte Original, Lange, Omega, PP, AP or JLC. I owned all of the above except Glashutte Original. If you care to find out. I'll post something in the future. It's far from being a low grade movement overprice watch. However it's not exactly Haute Horology either. The brand is weird, frustrating but not without charm
Regards
Tyler
PS I have an Enicar as well, a SherpaJet GMT from the 70s. It's a tough little cookie :D
Senor Hobbit - As alwaysa a pleasure reading your well articulated view on the brand and its watches. Thus we both have certain points in agreement and certain that are not. That is WiSdom :) As for Enicar - can talk anytime, check out Sherpa Series to start with.
As I leave this thread, i recall a couple of the key statements as my main takeaways:
Starting off with:
"The focus of this thread is the brand. We discuss the pros and cons of the brand. If we can't do that just because commenting on the brand will hurt the feelings of the supporters of the brand, then what's the purpose of this forum??"
And then:
"hey, I might even agree and sell em all to get the brands that you consider non trash."
"Some of our collections here are even worth more than your house or ride young man'"
"dont simply comment where it will hurt others feeling."
And in conclusion:
"Whether we feel ridiculed or slighted is purely up to us, and should not blame the anger on comments made by others. The anger might have come because we do not have security within ourselves and feel that there is some truth in what was said....it is the owners of Panerai that seem to portray the brand as a fashion statement"
Q.E.D. Have a great weekend all !
Post by: JPSP on September 14, 2012, 11:44:00 AM
Well would you respond well when some one start a thread asking about a certain brand that you are passionate about by calling its owner name like fanboys, ,buying the watch as strong fashion statements, young people who want to appear bold and confident?
Do you still want to share passionately what you know and come to love about the brand after all that name calling?
I did and what do I get. Denial and more name calling.
I got disturb when the whole thread turn into poster having a field day making fun of the owner of panerai watch. I try asking others to be more polite and sensitive.
What's the respond? something like if what's the point of this forum if I can't openly express what I feel. Those expression sound more like Criticism to me. When we state our counter points, again with the ignorance and name calling.
Does this sound like a discussion to you. Can you blame others for being upset?
The sole reason I'm writing this post because I believe there are others who are genuinely here to learn about the brand. I don't want them to be misled.
I'm tired of being taking advance as a target but instead leaving the post and say to hell of all this. I stay on because most of what being said here of Panerai is wrong. Even some of the info from the official website is not accurate.
That's why I find interesting about the brand. The true gems are hidden and it takes times to dig. Most ppl couldn't be bother that included most of the panerai owner.
Why? because is hard and time consuming. It's what this hobby is all about reading and finding more about the watch we love or don't know about.
I know I'll get another blast from this post so it will probably be my last post on this thread.
I'll leave you this. No brand have more variable of movement in their watches than Panerai. Not Rolex, Glashutte Original, Lange, Omega, PP, AP or JLC. I owned all of the above except Glashutte Original. If you care to find out. I'll post something in the future. It's far from being a low grade movement overprice watch. However it's not exactly Haute Horology either. The brand is weird, frustrating but not without charm
Regards
Tyler
PS I have an Enicar as well, a SherpaJet GMT from the 70s. It's a tough little cookie :DSenor Hobbit - As alwaysa a pleasure reading your well articulated view on the brand and its watches. Thus we both have certain points in agreement and certain that are not. That is WiSdom :) As for Enicar - can talk anytime, check out Sherpa Series to start with.
As I leave this thread, i recall a couple of the key statements as my main takeaways:
Starting off with:
"The focus of this thread is the brand. We discuss the pros and cons of the brand. If we can't do that just because commenting on the brand will hurt the feelings of the supporters of the brand, then what's the purpose of this forum??"
And then:
"hey, I might even agree and sell em all to get the brands that you consider non trash."
"Some of our collections here are even worth more than your house or ride young man'"
"dont simply comment where it will hurt others feeling."
And in conclusion:
"Whether we feel ridiculed or slighted is purely up to us, and should not blame the anger on comments made by others. The anger might have come because we do not have security within ourselves and feel that there is some truth in what was said....it is the owners of Panerai that seem to portray the brand as a fashion statement"
Q.E.D. Have a great weekend all !
Tyler, well said...we should all try to be civil in our approach..sometimes we disagree to agree..
There're a few forums that i truly enjoy my stay..MWF being one of them...but the forum that gives me the most laughs is TZ-UK...they're blatant, crude, direct and rude at times but yet funny and lively. everyone takes criticisms or disagreements with a pinch of salt and with lots of humour..
If i may, i don't think Pam has the most varied movements compared to some of the brands you mentioned. Pam probably have 60 different movements but JLC has more.
http://people.timezone.com/msandler/JLC/JLC-calibres.pdf
It'll be interesting to find out who's the most varied movements..but i must say you've brought out a good point that Pam indeed has a lot of different movements...something that even i've missed out.
Post by: chrisyen on September 14, 2012, 12:35:37 PM
So jlc or pam hv more movement???
Richemont own it still!
Post by: tonykpk on September 14, 2012, 02:00:20 PM
I strongly believe jlc technical gang design pam movement...
So jlc or pam hv more movement???
Richemont own it still!
Post by: JOS2012 on September 14, 2012, 09:12:03 PM
Regards
Tyler
Hi Tyler,
Would really appreciate more information on this..
Are you talking about variables in movements made by Panerai or more varied movements sourced from 3rd parties and used in Panerai….
I'm always curious about watches with quality in-house movements, the more the better...
Post by: dpkong on September 14, 2012, 09:13:38 PM
There're a few forums that i truly enjoy my stay..MWF being one of them...but the forum that gives me the most laughs is TZ-UK...they're blatant, crude, direct and rude at times but yet funny and lively. everyone takes criticisms or disagreements with a pinch of salt and with lots of humour..
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
I too hope we can see that here.
Post by: Enkidu on September 14, 2012, 09:21:53 PM
Mwf is still privately own... No income just out come
I hope the owner heard u ...
You mean Danny?? I am not too hopeful then. :Blue:
He is a PAM fan for sure.......suspect he could be quietly scheming to get back at me already. ;D ;D ;D
Post by: Godzillaz on September 14, 2012, 09:53:48 PM
I mean variable as in different category of movement as in minute repeater, chronograph, tourbillon, manual wind, auto, integrated, modular ... etc
JLC does have more calibre but majority of them are reverso, ultra thin and alarm movement which I categorize into 3 or maybe 4 categories.
ie
1. Reverso Manual (there more than 20 movement in this category but most of them are the same basic time only model)
2. Ultrathin Manual
3. Manual Alarm
4. Auto Alarm
Above just over simplify version to show and by no means an extensive list.
Regards
Tyler
Post by: paneristi312n on September 15, 2012, 03:59:41 PM
Cheers!
Post by: Scuderianer0 on September 15, 2012, 04:27:49 PM
Post by: Perry Y on September 15, 2012, 05:05:36 PM
Post by: TJWN on September 15, 2012, 06:48:19 PM
Post by: IWCking on September 18, 2012, 09:40:44 PM
I am with you that Pam does not make impeccable movement, unlike some other very traditional wrist makers. Be that as it may, I think design wise, Pam is way better than rollie and or any other watches. Watch nut like us will probably wanna buy inhouse movement and trying to justify our purchase with some technical superiority and exclusivity. However, the truth is most of us probably couldnt tell the difference between 21600 bph vs 28800 bph.
10-20 years ago, not many people bother whether its in house movement or not. I think all these 'inhouse movement" notion is pretty much influenced by Rollie after they have gone in house. Some watch nuts like us may like to jump out and view ETA as inferior movement. However, how many of us can really tell the different between inhouse or ETA. Bet we do not even know how much works have been done by watch makers when they bought ETA Ebauches and works on it extensively.
Personally, I have no issue with reliable ETA which is efficient, reliable and cost effective to maintain. Ultimately, its a matter of dollar and cent.
Well, I think Pam is there to stay just like Frank Muller.
Anyway, most if not all watch makers are more of Marketing company now. We have been heavily influenced by their marketing campaign, be it on innovative, history or some stories. Pam is doing a good job in market positioning and distribution and nothing wrong with that. Just like PP has been brainwashing us on keeping watch for next generation and rollie is injecting the king crown reliable watch on most major newspapers and magazines everyday and everywhere.
Post by: chrisyen on September 23, 2012, 08:33:17 AM
Now eta stop supplying, image.... they r into manufacture movement!
I still prefer a simple base movement pam... 17jewels enuf...
No body question the sky live vintage pam with Rolex movement
Rolex used corterbert movement that time
To... All watches is fashion...
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/yenfoolun/9E08ED12-F8F9-4ED1-9FCC-F9235FFCAC1A-295-0000001E51C25A5D_zps8b021578.jpg)
Even dino like it
Post by: GlySinn on September 23, 2012, 11:57:43 AM
Post by: Vintimes on September 23, 2012, 01:12:32 PM
Rolex has got their own movement since early time, but not for Daytona the most highly sought model is 16520 with Zenith 400 movement, and strangely Rolex finally came with in house movementof 4130 in 2000 onward, the collector is not interested on Rolex In House movement but pay premium for the older model of Zenith movement.
So, it is really depend how the branding, marketing, rarity that will determine the popularity. Unfortunately ETA is a common name and mass production manufacturer, good reliable products but also widelyused by many players, therefore it is naturally becoming less special, i think Panerai in house movement is getting the attention now. But the question asked, which model of Panerai commanding most value now? Definitely not the latest newer model with in house movement, it is those produced before 1990s that highly sought by collector.
Post by: tonykpk on September 23, 2012, 01:48:57 PM
Personally i think it is all about rebranding. Remember Tag Heuer, it was Heuer who was the watch maker then die off 1960s like most of the watches, it is Tag company who bought and merged into Tag Heuer and came out the first version of Tag Heuer Formula-1 late 1980s capitalised on Ayrton Senna popularity in the Formula One racing with Honda, since then the watch has evolved into one of the top brand after all the money spent in the rebranding exercise, only after that Tag developed their in house movement, other ETA has been supplying them all the movement like how ETA works with Cartier, Omega and many more brands.m
Rolex has got their own movement since early time, but not for Daytona the most highly sought model is 16520 with Zenith 400 movement, and strangely Rolex finally came with in house movementof 4130 in 2000 onward, the collector is not interested on Rolex In House movement but pay premium for the older model of Zenith movement.
So, it is really depend how the branding, marketing, rarity that will determine the popularity. Unfortunately ETA is a common name and mass production manufacturer, good reliable products but also widelyused by many players, therefore it is naturally becoming less special, i think Panerai in house movement is getting the attention now. But the question asked, which model of Panerai commanding most value now? Definitely not the latest newer model with in house movement, it is those produced before 1990s that highly sought by collector.
Post by: Vintimes on September 25, 2012, 07:11:40 PM
http://www.hodinkee.com/a-vintage-watch-nerds-critical-dissection-of-the-rolex-daytona-past-to-present-part-1-3
Post by: tonykpk on September 25, 2012, 08:48:39 PM
Post by: dennis.T on September 27, 2012, 08:15:24 PM
Btw I am not a collector and I can't afford the above said fashion.. Cheers
Post by: digitax on October 02, 2012, 07:44:01 PM
Post by: ck77 on October 02, 2012, 08:47:32 PM
Very new into pane tai. Would like to ask which model has 40mm case?PAM 072
Post by: zameenzahari on October 04, 2012, 02:25:45 PM
Very new into pane tai. Would like to ask which model has 40mm case?
To name a few : PAM 50, 51, 120, 48, 244, 310, 333, 282
Just do a quick look up on the net and you'll get the models
Post by: digitax on October 19, 2012, 09:02:17 PM
Post by: dpkong on October 20, 2012, 05:33:03 PM
Thanks alot ck and zameen. To be honest hardly see any merchant or members here selling a 40mm. Guess they are not popular compared to a 44?
Getting a 40mm Pam will get you banished in a corner..
:Laughing_on_floor:
Post by: TheHobbit on October 20, 2012, 07:02:48 PM
Thanks alot ck and zameen. To be honest hardly see any merchant or members here selling a 40mm. Guess they are not popular compared to a 44?
Getting a 40mm Pam will get you banished in a corner..
:Laughing_on_floor:
Not really as the 40mm Pams actually account for about 30% of Panerai total sales. It is just a perception that is driven by some that 40mm watches are not popular.
Post by: dpkong on October 20, 2012, 08:28:31 PM
Thanks alot ck and zameen. To be honest hardly see any merchant or members here selling a 40mm. Guess they are not popular compared to a 44?
Getting a 40mm Pam will get you banished in a corner..
:Laughing_on_floor:
Not really as the 40mm Pams actually account for about 30% of Panerai total sales. It is just a perception that is driven by some that 40mm watches are not popular.
no names shall I mention lest an apology be demanded from me as well.. :Startled:
if i find a live one, i would surely try it on..
Post by: legendofcondor87 on November 07, 2012, 06:44:20 AM
Dear members,
It has always been my opinion that Officine Panerai is not a watchmaking company but a just fashion house like DKNY, Dior, ...etc.
Panerai watches are all more about looks + aesthetics. Panerai lovers' obsession with the leather straps and the multitude of companies making straps for these watches partly support this view. When the watches do not come with see-through casebacks, I have seen photos of the movement underneath being not just undecorated, but downright raw and rough. This is evidence that the company is more concerned about cosmetics than the actual performance of the watches themselves (considering the movement is the heart of a watch). Companies like Stowa and Steinhart (or even Sea-Gull) have more self-respect than these Italians.
Considering their sizes, they look awkward as dress watches. Whilst some models have rotating bezel for diving, the majority don't - hence although these watches are claimed to be rated to 300m, they are practically useless as diving watches. In fact, it is not entirely clear which genre these watches belong to, except that they function as strong fashion statements for young people who want to appear bold and confident.
Their sale strategy (with countless special editions) shows they are not in the business of making good watches, but are here to play with human emotions and lust for exclusivity.
Let the discussion begin!!!
what kind of rubbish is this? PAM a fashion house? :HammerHead: :HammerHead: :HammerHead: :HammerHead: :HammerHead:
U crazy or what? or just ineducated? I have 9 PAM. 0, 5, 111, 112, 24, 25, 104, 161, 335. now i am targeting 424 cali dial. they are the best watch you can get now. why? i weare all of them every day. good engine, clear dial. how many do u have? why then you say PAM is fashion only.? nothing to do? i :Mad: :Mad: if u so terror go wear a Patek and alange lar. why? no enough $$? then don't talk so mucvh. read ur post make me damn t**l*n don want to hammert u also cannot. who say u can just tembak people's collection? you frust you got no PAM, jealous, need to let go? sickening attitude problem. real a**h*le!!!!!!! the mod of mwf must delete tyhis threasd!!! believe me we will all boycott mwf and your gtg. no one turn up then happy. :Mad:
Post by: pexus on November 07, 2012, 07:10:53 AM
but...i love... :'( :'( :'( I love Wong Yat Wah and Barbara Yeung.. :'( :'(
Post by: Godzillaz on November 07, 2012, 07:38:53 AM
You got the tapes? I love this series. The scene where Wong Yat Wah use "18 palms of decenting dragon" (very confusing translation) is the coolest memory I have of any kung fu movies.
GAWD ... I can hear the theme song behind my ear now ... damn you, pexus >:(
LOL
Regard
Tyler
(http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/nandopexus/2012-11-07100706.jpg)
but...i love... :'( :'( :'( I love Wong Yat Wah and Barbara Yeung.. :'( :'(
Post by: pexus on November 07, 2012, 07:54:13 AM
Where on earth do you get this!!! :o
You got the tapes? I love this series. The scene where Wong Yat Wah use "18 palms of decenting dragon" (very confusing translation) is the coolest memory I have of any kung fu movies.
GAWD ... I can hear the theme song behind my ear now ... damn you, pexus >:(
LOL
Regard
Tylerbut...i love... :'( :'( :'( I love Wong Yat Wah and Barbara Yeung.. :'( :'(
why me Tyler? why me? :'(
You need to defend the brand more....but you failed....and now...they're not coming to GTGs anymore... :'(
I was in midst of buying a bow and arrow and a cool Mongolian fur hat to wear to the next GTG..
and now? :'(
Post by: Enkidu on November 07, 2012, 08:03:42 AM
what kind of rubbish is this? PAM a fashion house? :HammerHead: :HammerHead: :HammerHead: :HammerHead: :HammerHead:
U crazy or what? or just ineducated? I have 9 PAM. 0, 5, 111, 112, 24, 25, 104, 161, 335. now i am targeting 424 cali dial. they are the best watch you can get now. why? i weare all of them every day. good engine, clear dial. how many do u have? why then you say PAM is fashion only.? nothing to do? i :Mad: :Mad: if u so terror go wear a Patek and alange lar. why? no enough $$? then don't talk so mucvh. read ur post make me damn t**l*n don want to hammert u also cannot. who say u can just tembak people's collection? you frust you got no PAM, jealous, need to let go? sickening attitude problem. real a**h*le!!!!!!! the mod of mwf must delete tyhis threasd!!! believe me we will all boycott mwf and your gtg. no one turn up then happy. :Mad:
Dear Mr. Condor,
It's sad to hear you (and your friends, since you wrote "we will all") do not wish to join mwf's GTG. Perhaps a great alternative will be this very cozy place in Perak. You can reach there by train. Alight when you see the following sign board.........
(http://i1244.photobucket.com/albums/gg574/loochunboon/TanjungRambutan.jpg)
and of course you can call before you arrive for pickup at the train station:
Hospital Bahagia Ulu Kinta
31250 Tanjung Rambutan
Perak Darul Ridzuan
Tel: 05-533 2333
For faster admission and VIP treatment, just print out your posting above, bring it along, don't forget to wear all your 9 expensive watches on both arms. I am sure the beautiful sexy nurses will make your GTG truly memorable.
yours sincerely,
Enkidu
PS: It's "uneducated" not "ineducated".
Post by: Scott C. on November 07, 2012, 08:19:54 AM
watches to me are just tools and fashion and we all love collecting them that's why we end up here...
we not just one-branded forum that's why some people might like one particular brand and one might like more then one.. that's perfectly ok... maybe just the words we chosen and used make thing complicated and misunderstood, i'm sure in general we don't want to make "enemy" here, right? So, let's move on la~~~ :)
i don't want to add extra here to make things complicated.. Play nice ;)
All members are welcome to join any MWF GTG (unless stated with criteria but so far i have not seen one yet), if one decided not to join it is OKAY, no forcing here... after all, we all just a bunch of watch-enthusiastic trying to share and learn from each other through the GTG ma :Cheers:
Post by: Godzillaz on November 07, 2012, 08:36:11 AM
You're out of control, boyyyy :D
Regards
Tyler
Where on earth do you get this!!! :o
You got the tapes? I love this series. The scene where Wong Yat Wah use "18 palms of decenting dragon" (very confusing translation) is the coolest memory I have of any kung fu movies.
GAWD ... I can hear the theme song behind my ear now ... damn you, pexus >:(
LOL
Regard
Tylerbut...i love... :'( :'( :'( I love Wong Yat Wah and Barbara Yeung.. :'( :'(
why me Tyler? why me? :'(
You need to defend the brand more....but you failed....and now...they're not coming to GTGs anymore... :'(
I was in midst of buying a bow and arrow and a cool Mongolian fur hat to wear to the next GTG..
and now? :'(
Post by: legendofcondor87 on November 07, 2012, 08:45:50 AM
come on guys...this is going a bit too far...
watches to me are just tools and fashion and we all love collecting them that's why we end up here...
we not just one-branded forum that's why some people might like one particular brand and one might like more then one.. that's perfectly ok... maybe just the words we chosen and used make thing complicated and misunderstood, i'm sure in general we don't want to make "enemy" here, right? So, let's move on la~~~ :)
i don't want to add extra here to make things complicated.. Play nice ;)
All members are welcome to join any MWF GTG (unless stated with criteria but so far i have not seen one yet), if one decided not to join it is OKAY, no forcing here... after all, we all just a bunch of watch-enthusiastic trying to share and learn from each other through the GTG ma :Cheers:
wat is too far? don get me wrong. I don want to have enemy here. but this fellow enkidu is jus 2 much. i know this is not a one-brand forum but then u can just bang other people's brand? :HammerHead: of course not! but he just bang and bang. and the mods just don care. actually i am more disapointed with my risti bros. where are they to defend? why take the shit? talk loud during gtg. but no one did anything when people throw sh** at your brand. why? why so scared? ypu keep quite, people think this enkidu is right!! wake up!
and to pexus....don't think that's funny.... :Mad: :Mad: old posters lah. now got new series. wake up fren, u outdated oredi. :Laughing_on_floor:
Post by: legendofcondor87 on November 07, 2012, 08:50:41 AM
Post by: chrisyen on November 07, 2012, 08:59:23 AM
Talk watch please, not religion! Don't pray any brand!!! Wear them!!!
Post by: fidoneo on November 07, 2012, 09:09:50 AM
come on guys...this is going a bit too far...
watches to me are just tools and fashion and we all love collecting them that's why we end up here...
we not just one-branded forum that's why some people might like one particular brand and one might like more then one.. that's perfectly ok... maybe just the words we chosen and used make thing complicated and misunderstood, i'm sure in general we don't want to make "enemy" here, right? So, let's move on la~~~ :)
i don't want to add extra here to make things complicated.. Play nice ;)
All members are welcome to join any MWF GTG (unless stated with criteria but so far i have not seen one yet), if one decided not to join it is OKAY, no forcing here... after all, we all just a bunch of watch-enthusiastic trying to share and learn from each other through the GTG ma :Cheers:
wat is too far? don get me wrong. I don want to have enemy here. but this fellow enkidu is jus 2 much. i know this is not a one-brand forum but then u can just bang other people's brand? :HammerHead: of course not! but he just bang and bang. and the mods just don care. actually i am more disapointed with my risti bros. where are they to defend? why take the shit? talk loud during gtg. but no one did anything when people throw sh** at your brand. why? why so scared? ypu keep quite, people think this enkidu is right!! wake up!
and to pexus....don't think that's funny.... :Mad: :Mad: old posters lah. now got new series. wake up fren, u outdated oredi. :Laughing_on_floor:
Bro , please read the thread from the beginning , we did defend the brand . Please read before you make assumptions on the local ristis here .
Thanks
Fido
Post by: legendofcondor87 on November 07, 2012, 09:12:31 AM
Post by: legendofcondor87 on November 07, 2012, 09:20:37 AM
Post by: legendofcondor87 on November 07, 2012, 09:34:02 AM
Pls pay to mind to Enkidu's post on panerai. I think he is bored and seek attention from us then make fun of us. It's his weird character. Are you on the MYristi FB? If not I can have someone invite you. There's GTG coming soon.
Regards
Tyler
to tyler/godzillaz,
why you pmed me? why the need to be secretive? what i really hate are coward people like u. openly u did not dare argue with enkidu....you agreed with him during debate, you let him bang and bang, then in his back you pour hot water on his character. any use? no. people cannot read your PM. noi use to pm me. why hide yrself? just argue with him, prove him wrong, ask him to apologise!!!!!!!!! :Mad: :Mad:
Post by: STT1987 on November 07, 2012, 09:55:45 AM
1) This is a free forum - nothing to be gained or lost. Walking away from fools and jerks is a good option.
2) The moderators set the tone of the forum - they either agree or are personal friends with the troll, too timid to shut him down or just (the usual Malaysia way) too "tidak apa" to do anything about it. Any ways, this troll has been allowed to shout down and drive out discussion on brands and people he don't like.
3) There is an ignore feature in this forum - go to profile and on the left column - go to buddies/ignore list.
Post by: hanz079 on November 07, 2012, 09:57:08 AM
Hard to differentiate... this one should be a breeze...
Post by: ck77 on November 07, 2012, 10:08:38 AM
http://www.malaysiawatchforum.com/index.php/topic,687.0.html
Now, tell me, where does enkidu violate any rule in order for us to shut or ban him?
A friend to us or not, we are here to discuss, share openly our opinions on watches.
You can defend all you want, call your brotherhood and such, and lastly, be nice.
Post by: legendofcondor87 on November 07, 2012, 10:15:02 AM
To be fair, there is no use to engage idiots, trolls and attention seekers with any sort of debate. There is nothing useful to be gained and there is nothing sincere in any sort of "discussion" (air quotes deliberate) with him. Pay heed to wise saying of Mark Twain in my signature.
1) This is a free forum - nothing to be gained or lost. Walking away from fools and jerks is a good option.
2) The moderators set the tone of the forum - they either agree or are personal friends with the troll, too timid to shut him down or just (the usual Malaysia way) too "tidak apa" to do anything about it. Any ways, this troll has been allowed to shout down and drive out discussion on brands and people he don't like.
3) There is an ignore feature in this forum - go to profile and on the left column - go to buddies/ignore list.
wrong! wrong! wrong! wat is fair? the PAM brand isgreat. every where u go people know PAM when they see it. actually if you cannot argue and debate, then u r an idiot. if u know but decide not argue and debate then u r super idiot. Troll? that enkidu have more than 300 posts. that guy is wrong about PAM but he know some stuff. there are people here who belief him. belief him a lot! say he is good with :thumbsup: the mods belief him. that's why they allow him to spread his wrong words on PAM! U cannot see? don argue or don dare? or don know hoew to counter? please think proper b4 u write.
Post by: STT1987 on November 07, 2012, 10:15:25 AM
legendofcondor87, pleae read the forum rules carefully,
http://www.malaysiawatchforum.com/index.php/topic,687.0.html
Now, tell me, where does enkidu violate any rule in order for us to shut or ban him?
A friend to us or not, we are here to discuss, share openly our opinions on watches.
You can defend all you want, call your brotherhood and such, and lastly, be nice.
You have a free and lax interpretation of rule #3.
Unless of course you think nonsense like Doraemon, Pam Anderson, men models and gay discussions belong in discussions about Panerai detonators, Panerai picture roll calls and Panerai straps. In fact he even trolled a huge multi-picture post at the end of Panerai Detonators thread. So yeah, troll poster allowed to run wild derailing discussions.
Post by: STT1987 on November 07, 2012, 10:20:57 AM
wrong! wrong! wrong! wat is fair? the PAM brand isgreat. every where u go people know PAM when they see it. actually if you cannot argue and debate, then u r an idiot. if u know but decide not argue and debate then u r super idiot. Troll? that enkidu have more than 300 posts. that guy is wrong about PAM but he know some stuff. there are people here who belief him. belief him a lot! say he is good with :thumbsup: the mods belief him. that's why they allow him to spread his wrong words on PAM! U cannot see? don argue or don dare? or don know hoew to counter? please think proper b4 u write.
Calm down, keep things in perspective and heed your own advice (bolded). I sympathize with your position, I'm on the MYRISTI FB page too. Look me up there.
Post by: legendofcondor87 on November 07, 2012, 10:35:30 AM
legendofcondor87, pleae read the forum rules carefully,
http://www.malaysiawatchforum.com/index.php/topic,687.0.html
Now, tell me, where does enkidu violate any rule in order for us to shut or ban him?
A friend to us or not, we are here to discuss, share openly our opinions on watches.
You can defend all you want, call your brotherhood and such, and lastly, be nice.
to STT1987, off topic is a small matter. posting funny pics is also small matter! derailing thread is small matter! don deal with small issue and bochap the big issue. why u keep bring up these small matter?
to ck77: what rule enkidu broke???????? the most important one! he did not tell the truth!!!!!! :Mad:
ask him to read some PAM brocher, then he know what i mean. cannot understand english? I can get chinese one for him in HKG, TPE or SHG. just ask him what he wants. i am ready to supply. honest i am.
good luck to you MYRisti if yopu want to remain calm. no more wordfs to describe..... >:( >:( >:(
Post by: TheHobbit on November 07, 2012, 10:38:17 AM
what kind of rubbish is this? PAM a fashion house? :HammerHead: :HammerHead: :HammerHead: :HammerHead: :HammerHead:
U crazy or what? or just ineducated? I have 9 PAM. 0, 5, 111, 112, 24, 25, 104, 161, 335. now i am targeting 424 cali dial. they are the best watch you can get now. why? i weare all of them every day. good engine, clear dial. how many do u have? why then you say PAM is fashion only.? nothing to do? i :Mad: :Mad: if u so terror go wear a Patek and alange lar. why? no enough $$? then don't talk so mucvh. read ur post make me damn t**l*n don want to hammert u also cannot. who say u can just tembak people's collection? you frust you got no PAM, jealous, need to let go? sickening attitude problem. real a**h*le!!!!!!! the mod of mwf must delete tyhis threasd!!! believe me we will all boycott mwf and your gtg. no one turn up then happy. :Mad:
Hi legendofcondor87,
Those are some very nice pieces that you have. An envy to many I would guess. Perhaps you can share how you ended up with the collection that you have? Pictures would be nice. What are your view on the pieces, more so the PAM00335. I am sure your journey is an interesting one.
Post by: davidtth on November 07, 2012, 10:45:59 AM
Post by: dennis.T on November 07, 2012, 10:54:28 AM
Post by: takashi78 on November 07, 2012, 10:55:20 AM
What is the "truth" you speak of?
I would love to gain some knowledge as i am a newbie to PAM.
Post by: legendofcondor87 on November 07, 2012, 10:56:20 AM
with the nick condor87, i suppose you must be born in year 1987? you were really young with this sort of PAM collection, hope to see some pix u took on your collection :thumbsup:
i will, once i calm down i will. sorry to everyone here for my anger.
wat enkidu wrote is too much. just 2 much to handle. i don know what he is really like as a real person. seem to hv good knowledge abt watches but stubborn refuse to see the good point abt PAM....sad for him.
yes, i am born in 1987.
Post by: fidoneo on November 07, 2012, 11:01:54 AM
Hi dude,
Pls pay to mind to Enkidu's post on panerai. I think he is bored and seek attention from us then make fun of us. It's his weird character. Are you on the MYristi FB? If not I can have someone invite you. There's GTG coming soon.
Regards
Tyler
to tyler/godzillaz,
why you pmed me? why the need to be secretive? what i really hate are coward people like u. openly u did not dare argue with enkidu....you agreed with him during debate, you let him bang and bang, then in his back you pour hot water on his character. any use? no. people cannot read your PM. noi use to pm me. why hide yrself? just argue with him, prove him wrong, ask him to apologise!!!!!!!!! :Mad: :Mad:
Dude , be cool , please don't be calling people names like coward , assholes , etc etc , its very rude
We are all civilized people here , I think the Tyler has a reason for pming u personally , this thread has already ended and there is no point of continuing from here , hell guys it's only a bloody watch why curse and swear . ? We only live once better to have friends than enemies right ? Come on dude I am sure u have that pam spirit in you , don't you ??
Fido
Post by: Scott C. on November 07, 2012, 11:06:59 AM
come on guys...this is going a bit too far...
watches to me are just tools and fashion and we all love collecting them that's why we end up here...
we not just one-branded forum that's why some people might like one particular brand and one might like more then one.. that's perfectly ok... maybe just the words we chosen and used make thing complicated and misunderstood, i'm sure in general we don't want to make "enemy" here, right? So, let's move on la~~~ :)
i don't want to add extra here to make things complicated.. Play nice ;)
All members are welcome to join any MWF GTG (unless stated with criteria but so far i have not seen one yet), if one decided not to join it is OKAY, no forcing here... after all, we all just a bunch of watch-enthusiastic trying to share and learn from each other through the GTG ma :Cheers:
wat is too far? don get me wrong. I don want to have enemy here. but this fellow enkidu is jus 2 much. i know this is not a one-brand forum but then u can just bang other people's brand? :HammerHead: of course not! but he just bang and bang. and the mods just don care. actually i am more disapointed with my risti bros. where are they to defend? why take the shit? talk loud during gtg. but no one did anything when people throw sh** at your brand. why? why so scared? ypu keep quite, people think this enkidu is right!! wake up!
and to pexus....don't think that's funny.... :Mad: :Mad: old posters lah. now got new series. wake up fren, u outdated oredi. :Laughing_on_floor:
Bro , please read the thread from the beginning , we did defend the brand . Please read before you make assumptions on the local ristis here .
Thanks
Fido
i'm making a general comment... didn't pointing at anyone..
if one can't take any comment i suggest just leave it... it's just so happen to Panerai.. it can happen to any other brand, then what? put another silly comments again (nah, i didn't say anyone in particular)? I personally don't know enkidu, you and most of the guys here, i am not against or side any particular member here...
as of now, no one violent the rules yet but if too much negative comment here, we will just lock it..i know, then you all will complaint no fair and many big hoo-ha again.. but please bear in mind, we are not getting any thing from helping to maintain the forum so that everyone get a chance to voice their opinion.
Also, i have not time to read all the comments here and judge who's right who's wrong... i'm just to make a general comment and make sure things don't get worst... if you think it is already and we (moderators) didn't do any, please feel free to report to us. Each of us has a day job and life to live and we do not monitor every single comment every day.
your understanding is very much appreciated.
thanks.
Post by: dennis.T on November 07, 2012, 11:07:52 AM
Dude , be cool , please don't be calling people names like coward , assholes , etc etc , its very rudeWell said Fido, very sensible and now i feel the spirit of Ristis. :thumbsup:
We are all civilized people here , I think the Tyler has a reason for pming u personally , this thread has already ended and there is no point of continuing from here , hell guys it's only a bloody watch why curse and swear . ? We only live once better to have friends than enemies right ? Come on dude I am sure u have that pam spirit in you , don't you ??
Fido
Post by: chrisyen on November 07, 2012, 11:08:55 AM
He stood against any1 who hv negative comments against a brand he love!
He even shouting others who share the same love nvr defended their love!
I wish this series ends here, After the drama end
Lets Mwf mods and myristi to organise a join gtg
And make sure legendcondors and Enkidu are there!!!
Shake their hands, showing off each other the watches in their collection that's they proud of!!!
Ps - whether u r a hero or a zero, personal attack is not allowed in MWF!
Post by: takashi78 on November 07, 2012, 11:17:44 AM
Hi dude,
Pls pay to mind to Enkidu's post on panerai. I think he is bored and seek attention from us then make fun of us. It's his weird character. Are you on the MYristi FB? If not I can have someone invite you. There's GTG coming soon.
Regards
Tyler
to tyler/godzillaz,
why you pmed me? why the need to be secretive? what i really hate are coward people like u. openly u did not dare argue with enkidu....you agreed with him during debate, you let him bang and bang, then in his back you pour hot water on his character. any use? no. people cannot read your PM. noi use to pm me. why hide yrself? just argue with him, prove him wrong, ask him to apologise!!!!!!!!! :Mad: :Mad:
Dude , be cool , please don't be calling people names like coward , assholes , etc etc , its very rude
We are all civilized people here , I think the Tyler has a reason for pming u personally , this thread has already ended and there is no point of continuing from here , hell guys it's only a bloody watch why curse and swear . ? We only live once better to have friends than enemies right ? Come on dude I am sure u have that pam spirit in you , don't you ??
Fido
Well said.
Much respect.
:Cheers:
Post by: Scott C. on November 07, 2012, 11:24:17 AM
Dude , be cool , please don't be calling people names like coward , assholes , etc etc , its very rude
We are all civilized people here , I think the Tyler has a reason for pming u personally , this thread has already ended and there is no point of continuing from here , hell guys it's only a bloody watch why curse and swear . ? We only live once better to have friends than enemies right ? Come on dude I am sure u have that pam spirit in you , don't you ??
Fido
Thanks.
Post by: legendofcondor87 on November 07, 2012, 11:41:39 AM
A legendary hero is born here in MWF today
He stood against any1 who hv negative comments against a brand he love!
He even shouting others who share the same love nvr defended their love!
I wish this series ends here, After the drama end
Lets Mwf mods and myristi to organise a join gtg
And make sure legendcondors and Enkidu are there!!!
Shake their hands, showing off each other the watches in their collection that's they proud of!!!
Ps - whether u r a hero or a zero, personal attack is not allowed in MWF!
yes, fido u r right.
sorry if i made personal attack during anger. i don write that well. sometime may offend people with no intention.
even to enkidu. i say sorry if i made personal attack to him. yes, i may sound really a bit crazy sometime. too passionate abt PAM. but i attack your views, noit you personaly. and i aslo salute you for defending your position strongly also although i don agree with u...no hard feeling i hope.
Post by: Scott C. on November 07, 2012, 11:45:11 AM
A legendary hero is born here in MWF today
He stood against any1 who hv negative comments against a brand he love!
He even shouting others who share the same love nvr defended their love!
I wish this series ends here, After the drama end
Lets Mwf mods and myristi to organise a join gtg
And make sure legendcondors and Enkidu are there!!!
Shake their hands, showing off each other the watches in their collection that's they proud of!!!
Ps - whether u r a hero or a zero, personal attack is not allowed in MWF!
yes, fido u r right.
sorry if i made personal attack during anger. i don write that well. sometime may offend people with no intention.
even to enkidu. i say sorry if i made personal attack to him. yes, i may sound really a bit crazy sometime. too passionate abt PAM. but i attack your views, noit you personaly. and i aslo salute you for defending your position strongly also although i don agree with u...no hard feeling i hope.
:thumbsup: i'm sure all cool la ;) after all, we are bunch of nuts who crazy about watches...
at one point, i was crazy abt panerai too~!! but that time i have no chance to meet the rest.. now the fire die-down already....
:Cheers:
Post by: Enkidu on November 07, 2012, 12:08:59 PM
even to enkidu. i say sorry if i made personal attack to him. yes, i may sound really a bit crazy sometime. too passionate abt PAM. but i attack your views, noit you personaly. and i aslo salute you for defending your position strongly also although i don agree with u...no hard feeling i hope.
Wow, this old thread is even more exciting than the US Election I was following. BTW Obama won.
No hard feelings, my young friend. But you'll need to give me a small token as proof of your sincerity. Let me see, how about that PAM 335 of yours? Shy lah, hope I am not asking for too much. ;D Is your piece an "M" or "N" series?
Post by: fidoneo on November 07, 2012, 01:01:05 PM
A legendary hero is born here in MWF today
He stood against any1 who hv negative comments against a brand he love!
He even shouting others who share the same love nvr defended their love!
I wish this series ends here, After the drama end
Lets Mwf mods and myristi to organise a join gtg
And make sure legendcondors and Enkidu are there!!!
Shake their hands, showing off each other the watches in their collection that's they proud of!!!
Ps - whether u r a hero or a zero, personal attack is not allowed in MWF!
yes, fido u r right.
sorry if i made personal attack during anger. i don write that well. sometime may offend people with no intention.
even to enkidu. i say sorry if i made personal attack to him. yes, i may sound really a bit crazy sometime. too passionate abt PAM. but i attack your views, noit you personaly. and i aslo salute you for defending your position strongly also although i don agree with u...no hard feeling i hope.
No worries . I was once at your age . I am still young btw just feeling old after entering parenthood .. So I know where the anger comes from . Take a step back and think before we start hammering the keyboard .
To all MWF members . Thanks you for your compliments . I am just addressing to something I see which is not right .
Peace everyone
Notorious fanboy...
Post by: takashi78 on November 07, 2012, 01:09:56 PM
Come sign up for the annual dinner which is tradition for MWF.
Ask your friends to come also!
Post by: fidoneo on November 07, 2012, 01:12:54 PM
Fido,
Come sign up for the annual dinner which is tradition for MWF.
Ask your friends to come also!
I do wish to attend takeshi but my lil sis is getting married on that week so I won't be in town .
Sorry guys . Perhaps I meet you guys next time .
Fido
Post by: dpkong on November 07, 2012, 02:30:36 PM
and it takes a lot of guts to come in with guns blazing. if this is what Ristis are like, then :mooning:
i've always looked at the brand from afar and wondered about them, but with all the bad press, i would be quite ashamed to wear one.
Post by: Godzillaz on November 07, 2012, 02:42:12 PM
... ... sigh ... ... what have I gotten myself into :-[
I must have upset or hurt someone so badly last life that ... ... oh ... ... never mind :-\
I hope none of you got offended by anything I said, if you do I sincerely apologize. :angel:
Regard
Tyler
Post by: dpkong on November 07, 2012, 02:45:02 PM
GREAT, now not only I'm fanboy risti. I am a back stabbing coward too. :o
... ... sigh ... ... what have I gotten myself into :-[
I must have upset or hurt someone so badly last life that ... ... oh ... ... never mind :-\
I hope none of you got offended by anything I said, if you do I sincerely apologize. :angel:
Regard
Tyler
I'd think that anyone who gets upset or offended in a forum really needs to get outside a little more.
:Cheers:
Post by: Godzillaz on November 07, 2012, 03:01:40 PM
I'd think that anyone who gets upset or offended in a forum really needs to get outside a little more.
:Cheers:
Is that an invitation for a happy hour session? :)
Regard
Tyler
Post by: JPSP on November 07, 2012, 07:33:57 PM
Dear members,
It has always been my opinion that Officine Panerai is not a watchmaking company but a just fashion house like DKNY, Dior, ...etc.
Panerai watches are all more about looks + aesthetics. Panerai lovers' obsession with the leather straps and the multitude of companies making straps for these watches partly support this view. When the watches do not come with see-through casebacks, I have seen photos of the movement underneath being not just undecorated, but downright raw and rough. This is evidence that the company is more concerned about cosmetics than the actual performance of the watches themselves (considering the movement is the heart of a watch). Companies like Stowa and Steinhart (or even Sea-Gull) have more self-respect than these Italians.
Considering their sizes, they look awkward as dress watches. Whilst some models have rotating bezel for diving, the majority don't - hence although these watches are claimed to be rated to 300m, they are practically useless as diving watches. In fact, it is not entirely clear which genre these watches belong to, except that they function as strong fashion statements for young people who want to appear bold and confident.
Their sale strategy (with countless special editions) shows they are not in the business of making good watches, but are here to play with human emotions and lust for exclusivity.
Let the discussion begin!!!
what kind of rubbish is this? PAM a fashion house? :HammerHead: :HammerHead: :HammerHead: :HammerHead: :HammerHead:
U crazy or what? or just ineducated? I have 9 PAM. 0, 5, 111, 112, 24, 25, 104, 161, 335. now i am targeting 424 cali dial. they are the best watch you can get now. why? i weare all of them every day. good engine, clear dial. how many do u have? why then you say PAM is fashion only.? nothing to do? i :Mad: :Mad: if u so terror go wear a Patek and alange lar. why? no enough $$? then don't talk so mucvh. read ur post make me damn t**l*n don want to hammert u also cannot. who say u can just tembak people's collection? you frust you got no PAM, jealous, need to let go? sickening attitude problem. real a**h*le!!!!!!! the mod of mwf must delete tyhis threasd!!! believe me we will all boycott mwf and your gtg. no one turn up then happy. :Mad:
what crap? owning 9 entry-level Pams doesn't make you an expert and gives you the bloody right to curse and call names. if owning expensive watches like PP, Lange, AP, in your criteria of being "terror", qualify people to say our peace and comment on pams...i think there're many hidden dragons and crouching tigers here who can afford your 9 pams easily (maybe 10 if you get your cali). I've my utmost respect to all members here but not your breed.
defending one's views is fine but not in your unruly tone. show some respect.
seriously, who gives a hoot whether you or your ristis brothers will boycott MWF/GTG? I personally don't care...i think the forum is a better place with proper discussion and information sharing
all watches are just accessories...we love them because it's a hobby but not a reason to belittle other people who hold different views from yours.
ineducatedly,
james
Post by: Manburg on November 07, 2012, 07:52:26 PM
Dear members,
It has always been my opinion that Officine Panerai is not a watchmaking company but a just fashion house like DKNY, Dior, ...etc.
Panerai watches are all more about looks + aesthetics. Panerai lovers' obsession with the leather straps and the multitude of companies making straps for these watches partly support this view. When the watches do not come with see-through casebacks, I have seen photos of the movement underneath being not just undecorated, but downright raw and rough. This is evidence that the company is more concerned about cosmetics than the actual performance of the watches themselves (considering the movement is the heart of a watch). Companies like Stowa and Steinhart (or even Sea-Gull) have more self-respect than these Italians.
Considering their sizes, they look awkward as dress watches. Whilst some models have rotating bezel for diving, the majority don't - hence although these watches are claimed to be rated to 300m, they are practically useless as diving watches. In fact, it is not entirely clear which genre these watches belong to, except that they function as strong fashion statements for young people who want to appear bold and confident.
Their sale strategy (with countless special editions) shows they are not in the business of making good watches, but are here to play with human emotions and lust for exclusivity.
Let the discussion begin!!!
what kind of rubbish is this? PAM a fashion house? :HammerHead: :HammerHead: :HammerHead: :HammerHead: :HammerHead:
U crazy or what? or just ineducated? I have 9 PAM. 0, 5, 111, 112, 24, 25, 104, 161, 335. now i am targeting 424 cali dial. they are the best watch you can get now. why? i weare all of them every day. good engine, clear dial. how many do u have? why then you say PAM is fashion only.? nothing to do? i :Mad: :Mad: if u so terror go wear a Patek and alange lar. why? no enough $$? then don't talk so mucvh. read ur post make me damn t**l*n don want to hammert u also cannot. who say u can just tembak people's collection? you frust you got no PAM, jealous, need to let go? sickening attitude problem. real a**h*le!!!!!!! the mod of mwf must delete tyhis threasd!!! believe me we will all boycott mwf and your gtg. no one turn up then happy. :Mad:
What the hell is this? :o
I'm shocked at the uncivilised manner of your entry mate. I've not commented on any threads here for quite some time, but when I saw this unbelievable post, I just couldn't keep silent lest I be deemed as condoning your action.
And thanks to you, be rest assured, you've done well to further consolidate the perception of others of your kind. At least it did to me.
Post by: Plankton-IkanBilis on November 07, 2012, 08:06:36 PM
Sometimes it is best to stay at the sidelines especially when one does not have the capacity to interact and express their point in a civilised manner.
Post by: JPSP on November 07, 2012, 08:09:32 PM
Sometimes it is best to stay at the sidelines especially when one does not have the capacity to interact and express their point in a civilised manner.
rightly pointed out...a plus if they can spell correctly :D
Post by: bryankwc on November 07, 2012, 08:17:41 PM
Take care, Ciao! :thumbsup:
Post by: nasa on November 07, 2012, 08:19:33 PM
Post by: nuartogel on November 07, 2012, 09:32:00 PM
lets turn off the heattt...
peace
Post by: JOS2012 on November 07, 2012, 10:00:55 PM
Lots of hot blooded passion…:)
Post by: terrenceterrence on November 07, 2012, 10:08:05 PM
Also damn you Pexus!!!! Now I can't get the TVB series theme song out of my head!!!! :Laughing_on_floor:
Post by: Enkidu on November 07, 2012, 10:13:42 PM
original pic obviously not mine.... ;D
Post by: dpkong on November 07, 2012, 10:38:19 PM
I'd think that anyone who gets upset or offended in a forum really needs to get outside a little more.
:Cheers:
Is that an invitation for a happy hour session? :)
Regard
Tyler
when i visit next month...
:Cheers:
Post by: kenixck on November 08, 2012, 05:53:26 AM
Hi legendofcondor87,
What is the "truth" you speak of?
I would love to gain some knowledge as i am a newbie to PAM.
a) Truth - PAM is more than a fashion house
b) False - PAM is just a fashion house
c) PAM is a great watchmaker that is fashionable too.
Please choose A or B or C.
:Cheers:
Post by: JPSP on November 08, 2012, 06:16:41 AM
(http://i1244.photobucket.com/albums/gg574/loochunboon/doraemontrophy.jpg)
original pic obviously not mine.... ;D
brilliant...the thread needs some wicked humour.. :Cheers: :Cheers:
Post by: takashi78 on November 08, 2012, 06:49:44 AM
(http://memecrunch.com/meme/22LD/best-thread-ever/image.png)
Post by: Kennypane on November 08, 2012, 09:16:30 PM
Post by: Kennypane on November 08, 2012, 09:20:01 PM
sorry, no. i don pray to the brand. i just like PAM and with passion. if people attack yr favourite brand, of course you get mad. get angry! even crazy sometimes. :HammerHead: but that is enkidu's fault. he started the fire. really he must apologize. then all will be normal again. there are things you can only talk to yourself or yr gf when you pump her. there are things ypu can talk inn public. don't mix both up. this is malaysia. not overseas. i know in other overseas forums people can bang each other and ok. here it is not ok!
Eh Kung Fu fighter, u sound quite rude here. Pump what? Reeboks? Start what fire? Look below and behind, I think fire will start there.
Post by: Godzillaz on November 08, 2012, 09:26:25 PM
I need a drink :laugh:
I just laughed my ( x ) off reading this thread :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Post by: Enkidu on November 09, 2012, 07:17:27 AM
with the nick condor87, i suppose you must be born in year 1987? you were really young with this sort of PAM collection, hope to see some pix u took on your collection :thumbsup:
i will, once i calm down i will. sorry to everyone here for my anger.
wat enkidu wrote is too much. just 2 much to handle. i don know what he is really like as a real person. seem to hv good knowledge abt watches but stubborn refuse to see the good point abt PAM....sad for him.
yes, i am born in 1987.
Message to the Legendary King Condor of the Kingdom of PAMistan.
When will you upload the pics of your 9 PAMs? We are waiting............................ ;D
Post by: JPSP on November 09, 2012, 09:08:53 AM
with the nick condor87, i suppose you must be born in year 1987? you were really young with this sort of PAM collection, hope to see some pix u took on your collection :thumbsup:
i will, once i calm down i will. sorry to everyone here for my anger.
wat enkidu wrote is too much. just 2 much to handle. i don know what he is really like as a real person. seem to hv good knowledge abt watches but stubborn refuse to see the good point abt PAM....sad for him.
yes, i am born in 1987.
Message to the Legendary King Condor of the Kingdom of PAMistan.
When will you upload the pics of your 9 PAMs? We are waiting............................ ;D
don't get him started... :HammerHead:
Post by: Manburg on November 09, 2012, 09:55:12 AM
with the nick condor87, i suppose you must be born in year 1987? you were really young with this sort of PAM collection, hope to see some pix u took on your collection :thumbsup:
i will, once i calm down i will. sorry to everyone here for my anger.
wat enkidu wrote is too much. just 2 much to handle. i don know what he is really like as a real person. seem to hv good knowledge abt watches but stubborn refuse to see the good point abt PAM....sad for him.
yes, i am born in 1987.
Message to the Legendary King Condor of the Kingdom of PAMistan.
When will you upload the pics of your 9 PAMs? We are waiting............................ ;D
don't get him started... :HammerHead:
Well, I think Enkidu would love to get him started.
Post by: takashi78 on November 09, 2012, 10:03:42 AM
Looks like his sole purpose signing up for this forum is to post here? :P
Maybe when one of us ask them to come over here and play instead of us going over he was all like
(http://skepticon.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/knapp01.png)
And after finished posting he was like
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5SgXWQl1y3M/T-z5saJcRrI/AAAAAAAAAc8/HqKqIQeUlbo/s1600/kid-meme-mission-accomplished.jpg)
Just joking la guys...i would also like to see his collection.
Hey its Friday !!!
Woot ! :Cheers:
(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/13736482.jpg)
Post by: Plankton-IkanBilis on November 09, 2012, 10:28:21 AM
(http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj521/hanswilsdwarf/2012-11-09-13-14-46--2008446801.jpg)
Post by: Manburg on November 09, 2012, 10:30:11 AM
;D ;D ;D
It's Friday, I'm also joking. :laugh:
Post by: JPSP on November 09, 2012, 10:50:17 AM
That's why I mentioned Enkidu would get him started. For all we know, he might just be Enkidu's alter ego.
;D ;D ;D
It's Friday, I'm also joking. :laugh:
Faint..
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5342/7398112888_984a8bdfa6_b.jpg)
Post by: Kennypane on November 09, 2012, 02:13:53 PM
Post by: Enkidu on November 09, 2012, 02:15:33 PM
Alter ego? Not mine definitely. If he is anyone's alter ego, probably manburg's or hanz's (you know, they believe they NEVER WALK ALONE)...... :laugh: just joking also......don't attack me, I love Ian Rush, Kenny Daglish (how could i forget him), John Barnes, Ronnie Whelan, Jan molby ........etc.
Post by: Enkidu on November 09, 2012, 02:37:38 PM
Could it be the split personality of Ivan aka Hobbitt as the legendofcondor because Ivan has 9 Pams to get back at Enkidu? No, cannot be. Just kidding guys.
You can see from this thread and the others that Hobbitt and I discuss rather openly. :thumbsup: I am sure he is not here to get back at me or anything....
Post by: Alvin-8880 on November 09, 2012, 02:42:11 PM
Post by: davidtth on November 09, 2012, 02:55:20 PM
wait.... i still wan to see the PAM collection from Condor :-*
Post by: TheHobbit on November 09, 2012, 04:07:25 PM
Could it be the split personality of Ivan aka Hobbitt as the legendofcondor because Ivan has 9 Pams to get back at Enkidu? No, cannot be. Just kidding guys.
I wish my collection is as diverse as legendofcondor. My small collection sadly is very focused and perhaps could do with some variety.
Post by: Enkidu on November 09, 2012, 04:11:45 PM
Could it be the split personality of Ivan aka Hobbitt as the legendofcondor because Ivan has 9 Pams to get back at Enkidu? No, cannot be. Just kidding guys.
I wish my collection is as diverse as legendofcondor. My small collection sadly is very focused and perhaps could do with some variety.
But PAMs are only a small part of your collection, I recall. ???
Post by: TheHobbit on November 09, 2012, 04:19:08 PM
Could it be the split personality of Ivan aka Hobbitt as the legendofcondor because Ivan has 9 Pams to get back at Enkidu? No, cannot be. Just kidding guys.
I wish my collection is as diverse as legendofcondor. My small collection sadly is very focused and perhaps could do with some variety.
But PAMs are only a small part of your collection, I recall. ???
Enkidu,
I wish. Unless you compare it with the g-shocks, which at the moment is slowly being sold to a collector locally. Nope, other priorities dictate that the collection has to culled and being a retiree does not help the situation.
Post by: Enkidu on November 09, 2012, 04:28:43 PM
Enkidu,
I wish. Unless you compare it with the g-shocks, which at the moment is slowly being sold to a collector locally. Nope, other priorities dictate that the collection has to culled and being a retiree does not help the situation.
Culling? All of us go through that phase once every few years, my friend. Just found out that VanniC (of www.vannic.it) has joined MWF. I am sure after seeing his pieces more often your Panerai collection will be growing again... ;D ;D ;D
Post by: Manburg on November 09, 2012, 04:31:00 PM
No lah, I only gave him a royal title. Not trying to get anything started again after the peace treaty two days ago. But he did agree to post some pics. I just asked again. :angel:
Alter ego? Not mine definitely. If he is anyone's alter ego, probably manburg's or hanz's (you know, they believe they NEVER WALK ALONE)...... :laugh: just joking also......don't attack me, I love Ian Rush, Kenny Daglish (how could i forget him), John Barnes, Ronnie Whelan, Jan molby ........etc.
Ha ha ha ... you really know how to get on others' nerves, or in my case, soft spot there mate! :D By summoning the name of the one and only "King", I can't do no other things except to buy you a beer! :Cheers: Well, who can forget the Greatest Reds of All, and by invoking his name, I can only say that You'll Never Walk Alone. :thumbsup:
By the way, after reading this whole thread, I can say that you've got a rather polished manner of presenting your arguments. Been submitting before any of the Lordships lately? ;)
Post by: Enkidu on November 09, 2012, 04:45:44 PM
Ha ha ha ... you really know how to get on others' nerves, or in my case, soft spot there mate! :D By summoning the name of the one and only "King", I can't do no other things except to buy you a beer! :Cheers: Well, who can forget the Greatest Reds of All, and by invoking his name, I can only say that You'll Never Walk Alone. :thumbsup:
By the way, after reading this whole thread, I can say that you've got a rather polished manner of presenting your arguments. Been submitting before any of the Lordships lately? ;)
Hahaha....I typed too fast when I replied to you above, and omitted Kenny Daglish. Added his name later actually. Blasphemy in the eyes of the Reds I am sure. Liverpool playing Chelsea this weekend I recall? Will be nice to watch. Mata vs. Suarez? Or Torres against the Red's fans??
I am afraid I'm only doing litigation sparingly these days. Age is fast catching up.
Don't recall seeing you owning any Panerai?
Post by: pexus on November 09, 2012, 06:24:19 PM
All is forgiven then! ;D
Especially when you mention Jan Molby and Ronnie Whelan in the same sentence..... :Dancing_banana: :Jumping: :Jumping:
Post by: Manburg on November 09, 2012, 06:30:25 PM
Hahaha....I typed too fast when I replied to you above, and omitted Kenny Daglish. Added his name later actually. Blasphemy in the eyes of the Reds I am sure. Liverpool playing Chelsea this weekend I recall? Will be nice to watch. Mata vs. Suarez? Or Torres against the Red's fans??
I am afraid I'm only doing litigation sparingly these days. Age is fast catching up.
Don't recall seeing you owning any Panerai?
Well, what would you do if the one girl you loved with all your heart, whom you adored til the seventh heaven, and brought you those wonderful feelings when you're together, who then duly reciprocated by declaring to the world that she loves you for what you are, and that you're the best in the world, suddenly turned her back from you and ran to the next guy flaunting his wealth, whilst telling him that he's the best there is? :Mad: It's a cut that will never heal mate. :'(
Anyway, enough of that, as the mod and those on the other side of the M6 motorway (if you get what I mean ;)) might have a dimmed view of this unrelated conversations. Back to the matter at hand.
The only reason as to why you don't recall seeing me owning any PAM is because I don't own any. A poor sod eh? :-[
Post by: nasa on November 09, 2012, 11:18:26 PM
Post by: TheHobbit on November 10, 2012, 05:16:54 AM
Enkidu,
I wish. Unless you compare it with the g-shocks, which at the moment is slowly being sold to a collector locally. Nope, other priorities dictate that the collection has to culled and being a retiree does not help the situation.
Culling? All of us go through that phase once every few years, my friend. Just found out that VanniC (of www.vannic.it) has joined MWF. I am sure after seeing his pieces more often your Panerai collection will be growing again... ;D ;D ;D
Welcome to mwf vannic. His collection in indeed an envy of many. As for me adding to the collection, more so pieces like VanniC, lies between zero and naught. It would be nice though.......
Post by: Enkidu on November 10, 2012, 08:26:33 AM
Well, what would you do if the one girl you loved with all your heart, whom you adored til the seventh heaven, and brought you those wonderful feelings when you're together, who then duly reciprocated by declaring to the world that she loves you for what you are, and that you're the best in the world, suddenly turned her back from you and ran to the next guy flaunting his wealth, whilst telling him that he's the best there is? :Mad: It's a cut that will never heal mate. :'(
Anyway, enough of that, as the mod and those on the other side of the M6 motorway (if you get what I mean ;)) might have a dimmed view of this unrelated conversations. Back to the matter at hand.
The only reason as to why you don't recall seeing me owning any PAM is because I don't own any. A poor sod eh? :-[
Well, your old flame Blondie had it quite rough last year. Guess she may not ever fully recover from the trauma too. With so many other enchantresses in the harem, I am sure she feels like a fallen angel.
Well, PAM is an acquired taste. Guess you jst have not acquired the taste. Hahaha....maybe my taste is not sophisticated enough and my fashion sense is just bad..
:thumbsup:
Post by: Kennypane on November 11, 2012, 11:56:56 AM
Post by: sm on November 12, 2012, 03:42:54 PM
Some of the comments are laughable. Uncouth and do not befit the house rules.
To my peers and master, i think we do not need to offer an olive branch to ppl who acted without decorum. Much less for a very open ended topic "Just a fashion house??". It is not a statement but merely an inviting question for all members to banter.
Get real, we are not and will never be a party nor a shareholder of any international brands. There is no need to get offended if our leanings is not view in the same manner as we would like it to be. Bill Shankly once said "football is not just life & death, its much more than that". On home front, we have pam lovers taking the statement to the hilt.
For the many of us, we invoke and caress the beauty of each and every watch that is being crafted by big brands. If there is a pam lover who thinks it is his oyster, so be it. For the many of us, it is just another big boys' toys that we indulge in whenever we have extras in our kitty.
I have dabbled in Rolex, Panerai, IWC, Tag, GShock etc and I dont lose sleep if anyone of you think if it is a fashion brand or otherwise. So let the debate continues come what may.....
sm
Post by: More Deneiro on December 06, 2012, 01:50:03 PM
Post by: ck77 on December 06, 2012, 01:56:23 PM
I was shopping for luxury watch recently and the Pam was on my list. It looks trendy and unique, but I knew next to nothing about the brand. Then I researched, they mostly used ETA for their movements which earn some demerit points in my mind but it's still ok probably. But the one point which made me not buy a PAM was how could they put an inexpensive 17 jewels movement into their watch and then retail it above USD5000? IMHO, that's shortchanging. So my take on the topic, if they can't overcome that perception, then yes I think they won't be en vogue soon. Oh, yes I have small wrists too.Your comment is understated. Try to read this, ;D
http://xtrememeantime.forumotion.com/t8207-panerai-movement-scandal
Post by: Plankton-IkanBilis on December 06, 2012, 02:03:05 PM
Understated his post may be...but enlightened More Denerio is. :thumbsup:
Post by: More Deneiro on December 06, 2012, 02:08:09 PM
I was shopping for luxury watch recently and the Pam was on my list. It looks trendy and unique, but I knew next to nothing about the brand. Then I researched, they mostly used ETA for their movements which earn some demerit points in my mind but it's still ok probably. But the one point which made me not buy a PAM was how could they put an inexpensive 17 jewels movement into their watch and then retail it above USD5000? IMHO, that's shortchanging. So my take on the topic, if they can't overcome that perception, then yes I think they won't be en vogue soon. Oh, yes I have small wrists too.Your comment is understated. Try to read this, ;D
http://xtrememeantime.forumotion.com/t8207-panerai-movement-scandal
Yes, it was meant to be, else I risk the wrath passionate PAM lovers! Just sharing my decision making when I rewarded myself for the years of toil.
Post by: gck on December 06, 2012, 02:10:40 PM
I was shopping for luxury watch recently and the Pam was on my list. It looks trendy and unique, but I knew next to nothing about the brand. Then I researched, they mostly used ETA for their movements which earn some demerit points in my mind but it's still ok probably. But the one point which made me not buy a PAM was how could they put an inexpensive 17 jewels movement into their watch and then retail it above USD5000? IMHO, that's shortchanging. So my take on the topic, if they can't overcome that perception, then yes I think they won't be en vogue soon. Oh, yes I have small wrists too.Your comment is understated. Try to read this, ;D
http://xtrememeantime.forumotion.com/t8207-panerai-movement-scandal
Post by: STT1987 on December 06, 2012, 03:03:34 PM
Anyone who has a PAM 318 can trade it in to have the unmodified ETA6497 movement (http://www.paneraisource.com/details/OPXXIX.html) swapped out with standard OP. II movement (http://www.paneraisource.com/details/OPII.html) that usually goes into these special editions. Shipping and handling extra - so it wasn't a completely free upgrade unless you walked in. Forum scuttlebutt has it that few PAM 318 owners seem to be taking advantage of the offer even when made aware of the upgrade available to them. Things like these are probably like postage stamp printing mistakes; errors and mishaps make for a better story value adding to the watches' uniqueness.
Nevertheless IMHO, it was an incredible act of lunacy that did a huge amount of damage to the brand in the watch community. It reinforced all the negatives that the brand doubters had against Panerai. Personally, I doubt that mistake was made at a high level of the company (what is a few hundred bucks savings of a watch movement vs. serious reputation damage to a brand). Having worked at a big multi-national company before, I know that upper management has very little knowledge of the lower/middle management doings day to day. My personal theory is that a low level manager in New York or Switzerland swapped in low grade movement to meet a shipment date. For the sake of the company, I hope that guy or gal was fired but in the end it's still management's fault that this was allowed to occur.
Who knows?
It may have even been deliberate disastrously bad joke (based on the brookly bridge saying) that Panerai played on itself and the watch community.
Post by: am_sober on December 06, 2012, 03:04:03 PM
Your comment is understated. Try to read this, ;D
http://xtrememeantime.forumotion.com/t8207-panerai-movement-scandal :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:
wOw~
never knew about this.. thanks for sharing...
Post by: TheHobbit on December 06, 2012, 04:05:42 PM
you beat me to it..when i go get my 005, first thing i make AD to do is to open the caseback and bring my loupe for inspection.,
Did the ad open up the case back for you? Also how did they address the water resistant rating after the case back was reinstall? Did the ad test the watch? Would be interesting to know.
Post by: TheHobbit on December 06, 2012, 04:09:13 PM
But the one point which made me not buy a PAM was how could they put an inexpensive 17 jewels movement into their watch and then retail it above USD5000?
I think that pretty much applies to almost the whole industry don't you think?
Post by: Kennypane on December 06, 2012, 06:47:34 PM
I was shopping for luxury watch recently and the Pam was on my list. It looks trendy and unique, but I knew next to nothing about the brand. Then I researched, they mostly used ETA for their movements which earn some demerit points in my mind but it's still ok probably. But the one point which made me not buy a PAM was how could they put an inexpensive 17 jewels movement into their watch and then retail it above USD5000? IMHO, that's shortchanging. So my take on the topic, if they can't overcome that perception, then yes I think they won't be en vogue soon. Oh, yes I have small wrists too.
Well what can I say? At USD 5k? R u kidding me?? Eta movement? Actually no one is shortchanging anybody. It's clear for certain models they do house Unitas movement. If it ain't yours then don't buy. USD5k sounds princely for a non manufacture movement.
Yup. For that price u may be able to find a GS, or. Rolex even. It's not for everybody. IWC uses ETA too. Same price maybe.
Post by: Plankton-IkanBilis on December 06, 2012, 07:09:28 PM
True enough..."no one is shortchanging anybody"...all one need is to look under the `hood'...information is available everywhere these days...best part, brands never deny if they do not use in-house movement...well if the buyer decides not to learn, who are we to say anything.
It just irks me when the less informed start trumpeting crap to the rest of us...no matter which brand it may be.
Under such circumstances, best thing to do is just to smile and walk away, :)
Post by: Kennypane on December 06, 2012, 08:07:46 PM
Post by: More Deneiro on December 06, 2012, 09:49:41 PM
Post by: Enkidu on December 07, 2012, 05:19:10 AM
I truely understand that putting a value on luxury/fashion is purely subjective. Maybe some value the brandname and looks more than anything else and there are many others who don't need to consider so much before putting USD5K on the table for watch. It's the principle of willing buyer, willing seller I get it. But if I would have bought it, I wouldn't be happy knowing that it's a brand that didn't hesitate using relatively inexpensive movement for USD5K watch. When it comes to luxury timepieces, I would like to feel confident that the people behind it takes pride in making quality watches and paying attention to details and it shows on the watch and on the insides. And should not feel compelled to open the case just to make sure if it does not come with clear caseback for a new watch. But this is just me.
First, as I mentioned before, I believe we need to discuss the merit/demerit of a watch brand without any reference to the subjective intention of the buyer. People buy watches for millions of reasons; it can be pure interest in the timepiece, need a watch, want to reward oneself, want to keep up with peers, true and inexplicable love for the watch, fashion trendiness, after seeing a nice pic on the Internet, (or who knows??) a real pistol to the head, and possibly a mixture of many reasons. This applies to all buying decisions of course, not just in relation to watches.
As regards OP's sales / marketing direction, I personally still find the interview given by Bonati to Timezone some ten years ago instructive. Of course, like all interviews given by a non-impartial company representative, this needs to be read with the proverbial pinch of salt..
http://people.timezone.com/library/tzints/tzints631742020270625000
Panerai imploding? As long as the brand is still under the Richemont stable and if Richemont is growing (which it is I believe), the Panerai brand will not implode.
Post by: gck on December 07, 2012, 07:51:02 AM
you beat me to it..when i go get my 005, first thing i make AD to do is to open the caseback and bring my loupe for inspection.,
Did the ad open up the case back for you? Also how did they address the water resistant rating after the case back was reinstall? Did the ad test the watch? Would be interesting to know.
Post by: TheHobbit on December 07, 2012, 01:38:56 PM
sorry it is not AD, i bought it at a grey dealer, and yes he did a waterproof test on a machine that looks like bell.
Cool. Tested to 375M. Congrats. Wear it with good health and wealth.
Post by: Gabriel on December 08, 2012, 09:16:55 AM
sorry it is not AD, i bought it at a grey dealer, and yes he did a waterproof test on a machine that looks like bell.you beat me to it..when i go get my 005, first thing i make AD to do is to open the caseback and bring my loupe for inspection.,
Did the ad open up the case back for you? Also how did they address the water resistant rating after the case back was reinstall? Did the ad test the watch? Would be interesting to know.
Hi bro, just curious, in short, is your 005 house with decorated movement? Or raw Unitas?
Post by: gck on December 10, 2012, 09:38:47 AM
sorry i didn't take any pix while at it. but it looks something like this, i think so, not an expert on movement, i just want to make sure i don't get raw 6497 movement like 380, the raw 380 movement looks worse than a steinhart.
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg178/ArcherWatches/Watchmaking/PAM005_0010post.jpg)
i am not a super pam fans, just like the design and since the price it just right, i pulled the trigerred.
this model i gave up after a few visit to one dealer in The gardens mid valley, 6 months also not in stock.
i just go to grey dealer and get it.
sorry it is not AD, i bought it at a grey dealer, and yes he did a waterproof test on a machine that looks like bell.you beat me to it..when i go get my 005, first thing i make AD to do is to open the caseback and bring my loupe for inspection.,
Did the ad open up the case back for you? Also how did they address the water resistant rating after the case back was reinstall? Did the ad test the watch? Would be interesting to know.
Hi bro, just curious, in short, is your 005 house with decorated movement? Or raw Unitas?
Post by: ck77 on December 10, 2012, 09:41:18 AM
Post by: gck on December 10, 2012, 09:50:20 AM
is pam318
(http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k611/unknown1000000000/318n.jpg)
PAM 380 uses a raw movement? You sure?
Post by: Gabriel on December 10, 2012, 06:56:55 PM
hi gabriel,
sorry i didn't take any pix while at it. but it looks something like this, i think so, not an expert on movement, i just want to make sure i don't get raw 6497 movement like 380, the raw 380 movement looks worse than a steinhart.
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg178/ArcherWatches/Watchmaking/PAM005_0010post.jpg)
i am not a super pam fans, just like the design and since the price it just right, i pulled the trigerred.
this model i gave up after a few visit to one dealer in The gardens mid valley, 6 months also not in stock.
i just go to grey dealer and get it.sorry it is not AD, i bought it at a grey dealer, and yes he did a waterproof test on a machine that looks like bell.you beat me to it..when i go get my 005, first thing i make AD to do is to open the caseback and bring my loupe for inspection.,
Did the ad open up the case back for you? Also how did they address the water resistant rating after the case back was reinstall? Did the ad test the watch? Would be interesting to know.
Hi bro, just curious, in short, is your 005 house with decorated movement? Or raw Unitas?
Thx for the confirmation, plan to get 000, already leave down name at AD for months, no news so far. :Blue:
Post by: volks2 on December 13, 2012, 11:53:17 AM
(http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll28/dragonbleu6860/panerai.jpg)
Post by: davidtth on December 13, 2012, 12:40:26 PM
Post by: watchfreak on January 24, 2013, 04:16:08 PM
Post by: citytime86 on January 26, 2013, 10:07:58 AM
Post by: phillyboy on March 16, 2013, 08:07:39 PM
Wonder why you need other members to convince you that PAM is the right choice for you.
I am a Rolex Addict, owning about 8 of them including a Daytona, one vintage and Oysterquartz. I would have never imagine to buy any other brand other than the trusted Rolex. This is because I just wouldn't pay the hefty price for a watch with an ETA movement.
I first encountered PAM when my friend brought a 270; the one with 10 days PR. At first, I though it was too big for my 7" wrist. Shortly after, another friend brought a 90.
Than one day, I decide to read about PAM, their movements, movements, styles, straps, etc. I realized that they have invested in R&D on developing in-house movements. I asked my friends to let me try one on and realize that my wrist is actually adequately sized without looking silly. I starting to pay attention to people on subways, buses and streets and noticed that PAM look great on them; many are women with smaller wrists. Also, honestly, how many brands have watches that runs for 10 days; not Rolex at least.
Then one day, without any planning, I decided to buy one. Then after another year, I brought another. I hope I will stop, not because I don't like PAM anymore, but it begins to cost to much.
The spirit you are looking for happens without you even knowing it. Do you remember when you fell in love with Rolex in the first place? These things happen without you realizing it. That's the beauty of it.
If you are looking for return when selling it after wearing for years, get a Rolex and make sure you get the right model. If you looking for a break from your Rolex, why not try wearing a PAM. Once you try one on, you will get the spirit you are looking for, trust me.
Post by: terrenceterrence on March 17, 2013, 08:10:45 AM
Post by: 1to12 on March 17, 2013, 03:24:53 PM
Personally, I like the look and feel of PAM, especially the radiomir. But just in the span of past 3 years, I feel it is "oversold". It's like being inundated by the waves after waves of PAMs. Maybe it's just the wide range of models they have but the "reintroduction" of LE turns me off. For e.g. I really like the PAM249 and after seeing it worn by one of my frens, I was thinking of getting it too. But then came PAM424... I would assume there are differences but it dilutes the special feel that comes with LEs especially if they look similar. Another one I like is PAM382 but it's too expensive for me... am not sure but think there's a "sequel"?
I also like the tobacco dial one and PAM372... very cool. But my fav was PAM292 although I preferred an automatic watch then. Was thinking of pulling the trigger for the pig dial as it was special but thought the pig might possibly appear somewhere else also.
Anyway, I was considering between Rolex and PAM as my first "luxury" watch.... it was my fav Explorer II vs Black Seal. After much thoughts, in the end, my wife bought the PAM287 on my behalf from HK in 2011. I've changed the strap but still havent worn it! (I have a bad habit of keeping new things unused incl. clothes). Well, I still plan to get the 216570 one day... but the poison has turned back time towards vintage... :Cheers:
Post by: TheHobbit on March 17, 2013, 04:15:16 PM
I have two in the household and I still think its not worth the money and its a fashion watch with very "questionable" history.
Actually the history is pretty well documented in the following:
Legendary Watches by Giampiero Negretti
Panerai Historia From the depths of the sea by Giampiero Negretti
Panerai Watches from 1936 to 1997 by Mario Paci
Panerai The Panerai Book by Dino Zei
The References, Watches with History - History 1 and History 2, all 3 books by Ralf Ehlers and Volker Wiegmann
Panerai by Giampiero Negretti and Simon De Burton
There are others I am sure.....
Post by: Enkidu on March 17, 2013, 05:38:18 PM
Actually the history is pretty well documented in the following:
Legendary Watches by Giampiero Negretti
Panerai Historia From the depths of the sea by Giampiero Negretti
Panerai Watches from 1936 to 1997 by Mario Paci
Panerai The Panerai Book by Dino Zei
The References, Watches with History - History 1 and History 2, all 3 books by Ralf Ehlers and Volker Wiegmann
Panerai by Giampiero Negretti and Simon De Burton
There are others I am sure.....
I am really touched to find this old thread still inspiring and attracting response from members (freshies, newbies and guardian angels alike).
Just a few observations:
(a) The above publications are mostly (if not totally) coffee table books. So read with an unhealthy dose of table salt.
(b) Just because something is in print, it does not automatically become "history". Otherwise, Wukong the monkey god, Putri gunung ledang, Robin Hood, Snow White, Ali Baba all become historical figures.
(c) History is often doctored, usually by the victorious or those with vested interest. In this case, for example, if he also sells expensive leather straps for panerai watches, I won't be too eager to believe whatever he writes about Pam.
(d) The above observations are directed not just at Pam but also all those "historical articles" concerning other watches (so guardian angels need not start googling Sir Edmund Hillary as rebuttal).
Post by: TheHobbit on March 17, 2013, 09:23:44 PM
Actually the history is pretty well documented in the following:
Legendary Watches by Giampiero Negretti
Panerai Historia From the depths of the sea by Giampiero Negretti
Panerai Watches from 1936 to 1997 by Mario Paci
Panerai The Panerai Book by Dino Zei
The References, Watches with History - History 1 and History 2, all 3 books by Ralf Ehlers and Volker Wiegmann
Panerai by Giampiero Negretti and Simon De Burton
There are others I am sure.....
I am really touched to find this old thread still inspiring and attracting response from members (freshies, newbies and guardian angels alike).
Just a few observations:
(a) The above publications are mostly (if not totally) coffee table books. So read with an unhealthy dose of table salt.
(b) Just because something is in print, it does not automatically become "history". Otherwise, Wukong the monkey god, Putri gunung ledang, Robin Hood, Snow White, Ali Baba all become historical figures.
(c) History is often doctored, usually by the victorious or those with vested interest. In this case, for example, if he also sells expensive leather straps for panerai watches, I won't be too eager to believe whatever he writes about Pam.
(d) The above observations are directed not just at Pam but also all those "historical articles" concerning other watches (so guardian angels need not start googling Sir Edmund Hillary as rebuttal).
Regardless these books may be 'coffee table' books, at least they do publish the history of Panerai and the watches they produced. If or not they were used in the war or by the military, we can only read about it in these books, unless we actually meet the people who wore them during the war or were in the military. But then again we can always argue if they were really in the war, in the military, actually wore the watch, it is a never ending situation. We chose what we believe in.
As for things in print becoming history, fact vs fiction. I believe some of these stories, like Snow White and Ali Baba are classified as works of fiction? I could be wrong....
Anyway something that is not really coffee table material....
http://www.watchtime.at/archive/wt_2008_02/WT_2008_02_208.pdf
Post by: terrenceterrence on March 17, 2013, 11:48:29 PM
But undoubtedly it is created crudely as a diving tool. As for a more illustrious history, it definitely can't compare much to other brands and even a simple g-shock.
Post by: spryken on March 18, 2013, 04:47:53 PM
Post by: CKL1213 on March 18, 2013, 08:13:58 PM
Post by: TheHobbit on March 18, 2013, 08:35:11 PM
after reading the PAM318 incident, it put my perception about Panerai in another way. no doubt their design is remarkable.
One of the many blunders by Panerai. Hope they learn from it....
Post by: TheHobbit on March 18, 2013, 08:39:01 PM
I believe the reason why panerai does not really "embrace" their history other than unofficially stating it as a "vintage military utilitarian design" because its associated with a military force with very "questionable and heavily debated acts of valor/terror even to their own people".
A very thin line at that Terrence.
Post by: spryken on March 18, 2013, 10:42:08 PM
I believe the reason why panerai does not really "embrace" their history other than unofficially stating it as a "vintage military utilitarian design" because its associated with a military force with very "questionable and heavily debated acts of valor/terror even to their own people".
A very thin line at that Terrence.
but, is there any clarification by panerai itself? any link that i can read up?
Post by: Cocas on July 18, 2016, 08:32:41 AM
Hi legendofcondor87,
What is the "truth" you speak of?
I would love to gain some knowledge as i am a newbie to PAM.
a) Truth - PAM is more than a fashion house
b) False - PAM is just a fashion house
c) PAM is a great watchmaker that is fashionable too.
Please choose A or B or C.
:Cheers:
I choose C. :D
Post by: asimo on July 18, 2016, 09:22:25 AM
End of the day , just buy what you like and can afford , and enjoy wearing it!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Cocas on July 18, 2016, 11:11:45 AM
I think panerai is not different than most other watch brand... All are profit driven and mostly owned by large conglomerates.. With strong marketing team to create the brand image n relevant marketing strategies...
End of the day , just buy what you like and can afford , and enjoy wearing it!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Well said :thumbsup:
Post by: Kennypane on July 18, 2016, 08:03:39 PM
Nowadays I wear my 210 on weekends?
Is it for fashion?
Post by: Cocas on July 19, 2016, 04:55:16 AM
aiyo Cocas u awaken the living dead?
Nowadays I wear my 210 on weekends?
Is it for fashion?
:thumbsup:
I would say you wear a great watch during weekends.
Post by: Cocas on July 19, 2016, 06:36:54 AM
I believe the reason why panerai does not really "embrace" their history other than unofficially stating it as a "vintage military utilitarian design" because its associated with a military force with very "questionable and heavily debated acts of valor/terror even to their own people".
But undoubtedly it is created crudely as a diving tool. As for a more illustrious history, it definitely can't compare much to other brands and even a simple g-shock.
Are you referring to the contents in this article?
https://perezcope.com/2016/04/05/panerai-and-the-nazis/
Post by: asimo on July 19, 2016, 07:24:22 AM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Cocas on July 22, 2016, 09:21:00 PM
Here is the Watch Snob 4 pages article about Panerai. You may find it interesting!
Post by: elado249 on July 23, 2016, 11:46:29 AM
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Post by: asimo on July 23, 2016, 01:27:24 PM
fashion or not...who cares .... btw, grab the last batch ( i believe is series R) of the basic panerai (entry level panerai) Pam 000, 005, 111 or 112 , before it is discontinued :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Post by: asimo on July 23, 2016, 02:09:24 PM
Wearing today ...
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Post by: Watchnut888 on October 29, 2016, 09:22:35 AM
Post by: Cocas on October 31, 2016, 08:46:54 AM
Post by: Cocas on June 22, 2017, 04:15:56 PM
The German car - Bxx AD sales team in Johor most of them wearing Panerai too :thumbsup:
Post by: el118 on June 22, 2017, 08:02:23 PM
Post by: asimo on June 22, 2017, 08:21:42 PM
Post by: adamjohari on June 24, 2017, 05:07:32 PM
Post by: rrk on June 26, 2017, 01:13:54 PM
They all were really nice watches and looked nice on the wrist. But the 392 and 90 were quite heavy and I found them uncomfortable on my smallish wrist. Sold them both. On larger wrists they fit well and look nice.
The 512 is an amazing looking watch and can be used for causal and dress occasions.
All in all I wouldn't buy the first two again because they felt too heavy but I can safely say they are not just a fashion watch brand. They make some interesting stuff and they do have quite a dedicated following among many watch lovers/collectors.
Post by: AbbasHabshee on June 26, 2017, 01:41:58 PM
Used to disliked it one time ago and changed my mind immediately after handling one in flesh! It has the iconic design just like the Rolex for example which can be detected at a glance and the history of the Brand itself somehow relates to the Rolex Brand as the first Case of the watch was design by Rolex. To me, this brand has its ups and downs but im digging some of its references with pure simplicity ;)
Post by: adamjohari on June 26, 2017, 03:58:01 PM
Post by: Ray55 on June 26, 2017, 04:18:07 PM
Post by: berdsc on July 09, 2017, 11:32:59 AM
But nowadays trend is going down on OP, they had countless model nowadays. a little bit changes had come with another model#. It make the collectors confuse. They still maintain the production limit however creating more model is the only way to make them hit their sales budget.
Post by: alex chong on July 16, 2017, 08:46:50 AM
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Post by: chrisyen on July 21, 2017, 07:22:03 AM
The fashionable panerai go thinner, new material, new technology...
They are selling historical inspired but modern future watch now
Anyway... I still love most basic Pam
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Post by: TheHobbit on July 23, 2017, 02:10:25 PM
I have told that sales are slow, no longer a 'hot' brand. To me, great. Now you, collectors and not dolphins, can get the watches you want, even special edition without the need to beg, be on a list or having to buy another watch to get the watch you want.
For those hoping to make a buck or two, I believe that ship has left.
I like Panerai, always have and always will. It has an interesting history, well for those who question its military history, lets settle with its modern one then. It has had a very interesting modern history (from 1997) with many who like the brand and as many who hate the brand.
But one thing is for certain, not many 'fashion' brand has had such a colorful modern history and not many 'fashion' brand could sustain its 'buy and make money' history for the past 20 years, indeed a feat in itself.
Post by: psychokandy on July 23, 2017, 02:58:34 PM
Post by: TheHobbit on July 24, 2017, 08:02:39 AM
It was very unfortunate that they discontinued the PAM00000 and replaced with PAM01000 which has lower water resistant for a dive watch brand >:(
Sadly so. A 2 piece case design with snap back case back? 100M WR? Sigh. But there are lots of zeros on the preloved market.
Post by: ck77 on July 24, 2017, 08:11:22 AM
Its not a snap cb, according to Hammer.It was very unfortunate that they discontinued the PAM00000 and replaced with PAM01000 which has lower water resistant for a dive watch brand >:(
Sadly so. A 2 piece case design with snap back case back? 100M WR? Sigh. But there are lots of zeros on the preloved market.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/353391/thread/1498498269/last-1498569349/View+entire+thread
Post by: TheHobbit on July 24, 2017, 10:28:09 AM
Its not a snap cb, according to Hammer.It was very unfortunate that they discontinued the PAM00000 and replaced with PAM01000 which has lower water resistant for a dive watch brand >:(
Sadly so. A 2 piece case design with snap back case back? 100M WR? Sigh. But there are lots of zeros on the preloved market.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/353391/thread/1498498269/last-1498569349/View+entire+thread
Ah .... I see. My humble apologies. It's a 2 piece case design with a PRESSURE FIT case back. ::)
Post by: psychokandy on July 24, 2017, 09:17:08 PM
Does this new design has better functionality over the previous screw back? I am new to Panerai...Its not a snap cb, according to Hammer.It was very unfortunate that they discontinued the PAM00000 and replaced with PAM01000 which has lower water resistant for a dive watch brand >:(
Sadly so. A 2 piece case design with snap back case back? 100M WR? Sigh. But there are lots of zeros on the preloved market.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/353391/thread/1498498269/last-1498569349/View+entire+thread
Ah .... I see. My humble apologies. It's a 2 piece case design with a PRESSURE FIT case back. ::)
I am deciding either to get a pre owned PAM000 or a new PAM510. If anyone knows which AD can get good discount pls do PM me. Much appreciated
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Post by: chrisyen on July 24, 2017, 09:34:52 PM
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Post by: dennis.T on July 25, 2017, 10:41:12 AM
Yes, Panerai is a brand with controversy. i think the “brotherhood” bonding are still there for the Ristis. This is what I encounter during the Singapore Ristis GTG some time ago. Some of the Ristis just keeping 1 or 2 pieces to remain in the Ristis circle.
I still love Panerai watch but only to those historical piece (which I can’t afford) and basic one which using ETA 6497.
Btw, where is Myristis boy going nowadays? ;D
Post by: TheHobbit on July 25, 2017, 11:20:15 AM
Does this new design has better functionality over the previous screw back? I am new to Panerai...
I am deciding either to get a pre owned PAM000 or a new PAM510. If anyone knows which AD can get good discount pls do PM me. Much appreciated
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Does not seem to provide better functionality with regards to rated water resistance. Down from 300M to 100M.
The Zero and 510 are 2 very different watches, with the zero being powered by an ETA movt and the 510 an in-house 8 day movt.
Post by: ck77 on July 25, 2017, 11:25:18 AM
Does not seem to provide better functionality with regards to rated water resistance. Down from 300M to 100M.But seriously speaking, how many of us using our diver watch for actual diving :D
Post by: TheHobbit on July 25, 2017, 11:37:59 AM
Does not seem to provide better functionality with regards to rated water resistance. Down from 300M to 100M.But seriously speaking, how many of us using our diver watch for actual diving :D
True true, but nice to have nonetheless.
Post by: psychokandy on July 25, 2017, 03:37:55 PM
Does this new design has better functionality over the previous screw back? I am new to Panerai...
I am deciding either to get a pre owned PAM000 or a new PAM510. If anyone knows which AD can get good discount pls do PM me. Much appreciated
Sent from my P01V using Tapatalk
Does not seem to provide better functionality with regards to rated water resistance. Down from 300M to 100M.
The Zero and 510 are 2 very different watches, with the zero being powered by an ETA movt and the 510 an in-house 8 day movt.
Thanks for pointing this out and apologies for not clarifying my statement.
The reason I want to get a pre owned Zeros are because of the heritage values of the timepiece. Also it has the OP logo and sausage dials. But these days it's quite difficult to source for a pre owned Zeros.
Now, the next option for me would be either to go with 510 or 560 because the 1000 and 1005 has sort of deviate from their original function and this is only my perspective and of course it's always a discussion of how deep do we dive etc. Additionally in the flip side, I also do read about the in-house movement is not as robust as the ETA.
Also from what I read the 510 and 560 does not have sandwich dial anymore and it's painted dial which is again quite different from the sausage dials of the Zeros.
Dilemma dilemma dilemma. Hahaha. First world problem I have.
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Post by: TheHobbit on July 25, 2017, 06:32:06 PM
Thanks for pointing this out and apologies for not clarifying my statement.
The reason I want to get a pre owned Zeros are because of the heritage values of the timepiece. Also it has the OP logo and sausage dials. But these days it's quite difficult to source for a pre owned Zeros.
Now, the next option for me would be either to go with 510 or 560 because the 1000 and 1005 has sort of deviate from their original function and this is only my perspective and of course it's always a discussion of how deep do we dive etc. Additionally in the flip side, I also do read about the in-house movement is not as robust as the ETA.
Also from what I read the 510 and 560 does not have sandwich dial anymore and it's painted dial which is again quite different from the sausage dials of the Zeros.
Dilemma dilemma dilemma. Hahaha. First world problem I have.
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I can't really offer you much in terms of advice as I am not current with Panerai and its offering. What I can say is, if you really like the 0 because of the logo and its historic links, take your time and slowly search. It is the closest you can get to the Pre-V 5218-201/A. It may difficult now, but they do pop up time to time.
As to the 510/ 560... you have to decide if you like the register at 9 for the sweep seconds. Some prefer the clean dial of the 510 while other prefer the 560. If you want the sandwich dial, from what I understand, you will need to get either the Q series or early R series.
The p.5000 movement? I can't say much as I have no experience with the new movements.
All the best with the hunt.
Post by: ck77 on July 26, 2017, 11:32:48 AM
Just saying ;)
Post by: TannaLR on August 17, 2019, 07:21:23 PM
Post by: echan78 on October 07, 2019, 03:29:47 PM
Post by: axaxax on October 12, 2019, 01:00:20 AM
Why do new Panerais have such low water resistance?Some complained that its because they've changed from screw in to snap on cashback.
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Post by: TannaLR on October 12, 2019, 05:55:46 PM
Post by: dennis.T on January 30, 2020, 05:18:53 PM
Fashionable or not I couldn’t be bothered... still a fun watch!!
Post by: whyeshen on February 19, 2020, 05:10:12 AM
Only downside, no quick set date and a little free play when adjusting the minute hand.
Fashion watch or otherwise?
I don't care. I'm absolutely in love with my PAM388 and I'll wear it like it's better than a Rolex. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200219/9d5a579747c2742f08f4c88e6600a325.jpg)
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Post by: blackmamba24 on February 19, 2020, 07:41:06 AM
Having said that I might pull the trigger on a Pam in my mid life crisis and buy a ferrari, never say never. lol.
Post by: exodus on March 13, 2020, 12:04:57 PM
Post by: Olkuu0205 on March 25, 2020, 10:58:39 AM
Link above is a video shares some thoughts of panerai and together with a Luminor due :thumbsup:
(https://i.ibb.co/CMnRZdb/Sylvester-Stallone-Panerai-PAM341-Radiomir-Egiziano.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4YjhGy8)
(https://i.ibb.co/7yVYmF9/arnold-schwarzenegger-panerai-watch-1024x746.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Lp6k7fG)
(https://i.ibb.co/Jsk2c3J/1-Hobbs-and-Shaw-c-Entertainment-Weekly.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pLXZ1hF)
(https://i.ibb.co/ZKYkcFC/fe2ca264d58157d90951bab8c8f19917.png) (https://ibb.co/TRbFP75)
(https://i.ibb.co/bPfLnW0/3b05000382c0f836843b.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/7WThMWP/45720779842-152dc6b7b3-b.jpg) (https://ibb.co/R0M8r0f)
(https://i.ibb.co/DV91q66/27-05-2019-panerai-luminor-due-42-mm-pam00676-COVER.jpg) (https://ibb.co/smKgBDD)
Post by: Adzrienn on June 08, 2020, 06:33:03 PM
Post by: bulletnos on June 08, 2020, 08:43:22 PM
Just bought a pam 1312.. do u guys think pamis dead espacially with all the fakes?
On the contrary, I think PAM-ies are making a come back....
I for one had sold 1 of my rollies recently (still keeping my Sub tho) and got a PAM instead...so happy with it! Miss the strap changing days, and reliving it now! It's an addiction...
Post by: Adzrienn on June 09, 2020, 06:33:16 AM
Post by: Ben07 on June 09, 2020, 08:09:41 AM
Post by: dennis.T on June 09, 2020, 11:30:22 AM
Been following the thread for quite sometime. Interesting read indeed. I am new to watch collecting and Panerai always excites me with the unique crown guard on the Luminors. It's so distinctly Panerai. But for the size, I stayed clear of buying one until recently when I acquired a 44mm GMT. It fits perfectly and what a beauty it is. Been on the wrist everyday now. Will be in the collection for many years to come.do you measure how many turn to wind to the max PR? I owned a 233 before and I remember is nearly 100 turn :HammerHead:
Post by: bulletnos on June 09, 2020, 01:40:26 PM
Been following the thread for quite sometime. Interesting read indeed. I am new to watch collecting and Panerai always excites me with the unique crown guard on the Luminors. It's so distinctly Panerai. But for the size, I stayed clear of buying one until recently when I acquired a 44mm GMT. It fits perfectly and what a beauty it is. Been on the wrist everyday now. Will be in the collection for many years to come.That is a beautiful watch...! Congrats on your acquisition...Cheers
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Post by: Adzrienn on June 09, 2020, 07:21:51 PM
Post by: Ben07 on June 14, 2020, 08:31:44 PM
Been following the thread for quite sometime. Interesting read indeed. I am new to watch collecting and Panerai always excites me with the unique crown guard on the Luminors. It's so distinctly Panerai. But for the size, I stayed clear of buying one until recently when I acquired a 44mm GMT. It fits perfectly and what a beauty it is. Been on the wrist everyday now. Will be in the collection for many years to come.do you measure how many turn to wind to the max PR? I owned a 233 before and I remember is nearly 100 turn :HammerHead:
Yes I did. It took 200 half turns. After the first 100 at halfway mark, I stop and rest for a while. It's very tiring but satisfying in the end. :Laughing_on_floor:
Post by: Ben07 on June 14, 2020, 08:44:56 PM
Been following the thread for quite sometime. Interesting read indeed. I am new to watch collecting and Panerai always excites me with the unique crown guard on the Luminors. It's so distinctly Panerai. But for the size, I stayed clear of buying one until recently when I acquired a 44mm GMT. It fits perfectly and what a beauty it is. Been on the wrist everyday now. Will be in the collection for many years to come.That is a beautiful watch...! Congrats on your acquisition...Cheers
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Thank you. Yes it's a beauty. The sandwich dial, the domed sapphire crystal, the date function and the GMT all packaged in one. It's the one Panerai covers all for me. Though now I am keeping an eye on a ceramic bezel Submersible and a blue dial GMT/ Radiomir.
Yes, I am late to the"party" and missed the golden age of Panerai collection, it's definitely not a "fashion watch" for me. :Dancing_banana: :Jumping:
Post by: Ben07 on June 14, 2020, 08:50:17 PM
Just bought a pam 1312.. do u guys think pamis dead espacially with all the fakes?
I concur with others, it's certainly not dead. Newer Pam's with Carbotech and Fibrtech materials looks the part and will cater for different enthusiasts with deep pockets for sure. If only the prices are half what Panerai ask for it I think ordinary guy like me can have slice of the bite. :HammerHead: