Malaysia Watch Forum
Main Forums => General Discussion - Vintage Watches => Topic started by: danny on June 22, 2012, 05:00:14 PM
-
The Rolex brand has been synonymous with quality timepieces for a long time and there is a very active market for pre-owned Rolex timepieces, especially for vintage sports models. There are many reasons for a watch enthusiast to consider adding a pre-owned Rolex timepiece to a collection, not least amongst these are:
- Rolex timepieces are generally considered to be very well made and are known for their robustness. The oyster case, with its water and dust resistant design, helps to preserve Rolex watches in relatively good working condition. Rolex in-house calibers are widely recognized to be amongst the best watch movements in terms of accuracy, durability and ease of service. Hence the desirability of pre-owned Rolex watches amongst collectors.
- A brand new Rolex timepiece can cost a small fortune, definitely more than most people would ever consider spending on a wrist watch. Substantial savings can be realized by buying a pre-owned Rolex which has already taken the initial depreciation.
- Rolex is known for gradually raising retail prices every year, just like clock work. A pre-owned Rolex timepiece, if held for a reasonable amount of time, say 10 years, can be expected to be sold at its purchase price or even more, allowing the owner to at least break even or make a small profit. In the meantime the owner would have had the pleasure of having worn a Rolex fine timepiece for “free”.
- If a collector is determined to purchase a particular vintage Rolex watch, long out of production, then the only real option is to hunt in the pre-owned market.
- Some of the older Rolex tool watches are considered to be more desirable than the contemporary models. Case in point – the Rolex GMT Master II with pepsi or coke dial is widely perceived amongst collectors to be more attractive compared to the contemporary model with monotone black ceramic bezel. The only way to obtain one of these “discontinued” models is by buying pre-owned.
Personally I do not have much experience buying pre-owned or vintage Rolex timepieces.
I would like to pick the collective brains of our members, especially the Rolex sifus here.
What advise can you offer to someone who is looking to enter the pre-owned/vintage Rolex market?
What are the pitfalls to consider?
What are the more popular models to look for?
:Cheers:
-
Can we set the parameters first...vintage can be such a loosely used term...as far as i can remember, when it comes to cars...25-50 years old is refered as classic, while more than 50 years is vintage. Does it apply to watches as well?
-
I would guess 4 digit reference would be considered vintage and anything more is modern?
-
I would guess 4 digit reference would be considered vintage and anything more is modern?
Like I said, I'm no expert when it comes to vintage Rolex watches but Hobbit's criteria definitely sounds reasonable and rational to me.
Let's adopt this definition for the discussion at hand.
:Cheers:
-
My personal view...when it comes to Rolex
Classic (25-50 years) - my biggest concern will be minor changes to the parts (to the less informed)...meaning change of hand(s), bezel, bracelet, dial etc...refurbished watch is another which I will stay clear from...worse still, changes to the parts inside the watch.
Vintage (50 more years) - I feel that when it comes to this category, its best to buy from auction houses...never have, and doubt I ever will...financially! :laugh:
-
It's general perception that anything that's over 20 years old can be consider vintage.
Regard
Tyler
Can we set the parameters first...vintage can be such a loosely used term...as far as i can remember, when it comes to cars...25-50 years old is refered as classic, while more than 50 years is vintage. Does it apply to watches as well?
-
Even the most famous auction houses have been known to make mistakes.
What keeps me from collecting vintage Rolex is the fact that Rolex no longer product spare parts for their watches after certain number of years after production has stopped.
This is when other big brands are more worth it to keep the vintage pieces.
They might not have the part anymore but you can pay extra and they can fabricate it.
-
Broadly speaking the popular models (without going into reference specifics) are the Submariner, GMT Master, Explorer, Milgauss and of course the Daytona.
To me if you want to start, arm yourself with the knowledge on vintage Rolex watches. It can be a minefield or not. Here at a number of books, like James Dowling book, The Best of Time, Rolex Wristwatches and the other book is Vintage Rolex Sports Models. For those who can read Japanese, there are many Japanese magazine books (mooks) that deal with the brand and let me tell you the Japanese can be very fanatical when it comes to Rolex.
However the main thing you have to establish is how fanatical are you about the watch? Are you a purist? This means no service dials or hands or bezel inserts or even bracelets. What about the crown and stem tube? What about the crystal? And I am not talking about acrylic vs sapphire but would service tropic crystal be ok? Would a super dome be considered favourable vs a normal dome on a Submariner?
-
Hi Danny,
The world of vintage rolex is an exciting but also not without some traps. Generally any model that's more than 20 years can be consider a vintage. However without going to far let's just stick to the basic sports model. It have a few plus point.
One It's easier to find reference and seller.
Two pick the right one you may end up not losing anything down the road.
Three easier to offload because it's popular.
The sports model are Submariner, Sea-Dweller, Explorer, Explorer 2, GMT Master and Daytona. I leave out the Milgauss and other lesser known model like Turn-O-Graph, TruBeat, Prince and pre Daytona chronograph mainly because yhey are too rare, too old and hard to maintain.
To start I suggest a Sub or a GMT.
Why because they are plenty and price has not reach the sky ... yet.
In the Subs we have a few model
In historic order
no date
6200
6538
6536
5508
5510
5512
5513
14060
date
1680
16800
I'll start by looking for a 5513. The interesting is the model has gone thru many face lift and certainly a joy to study the evolution.
In GMT Master things are simpler
6542
1675
16750
16760
16700
16710
The 1675 is where I will start. It's the same with the 5513 as it also has a long production life and gone thru many changes.
The pitfall are
1. Lots harder to tell fake from real.
2. Servicing could be an issue
3. Price gap between a fair and good condition is huge.
4. They are more fragile than new watch. (I know rolex suppose to be durable but these are 30~40 years watches ;) )
There are some books to read but they aren't all that accurate so must be taken with a grain of salt.
I'll post some photos when I have time.
Hope this find you well.
Regards
Tyler
The Rolex brand has been synonymous with quality timepieces for a long time and there is a very active market for pre-owned Rolex timepieces, especially for vintage sports models. There are many reasons for a watch enthusiast to consider adding a pre-owned Rolex timepiece to a collection, not least amongst these are:
- Rolex timepieces are generally considered to be very well made and are known for their robustness. The oyster case, with its water and dust resistant design, helps to preserve Rolex watches in relatively good working condition. Rolex in-house calibers are widely recognized to be amongst the best watch movements in terms of accuracy, durability and ease of service. Hence the desirability of pre-owned Rolex watches amongst collectors.
- A brand new Rolex timepiece can cost a small fortune, definitely more than most people would ever consider spending on a wrist watch. Substantial savings can be realized by buying a pre-owned Rolex which has already taken the initial depreciation.
- Rolex is known for gradually raising retail prices every year, just like clock work. A pre-owned Rolex timepiece, if held for a reasonable amount of time, say 10 years, can be expected to be sold at its purchase price or even more, allowing the owner to at least break even or make a small profit. In the meantime the owner would have had the pleasure of having worn a Rolex fine timepiece for “free”.
- If a collector is determined to purchase a particular vintage Rolex watch, long out of production, then the only real option is to hunt in the pre-owned market.
- Some of the older Rolex tool watches are considered to be more desirable than the contemporary models. Case in point – the Rolex GMT Master II with pepsi or coke dial is widely perceived amongst collectors to be more attractive compared to the contemporary model with monotone black ceramic bezel. The only way to obtain one of these “discontinued” models is by buying pre-owned.
Personally I do not have much experience buying pre-owned or vintage Rolex timepieces.
I would like to pick the collective brains of our members, especially the Rolex sifus here.
What advise can you offer to someone who is looking to enter the pre-owned/vintage Rolex market?
What are the pitfalls to consider?
What are the more popular models to look for?
:Cheers:
-
very informative. i learn another lesson even tho is abit late for me. everyday learn something new :thumbsup:
-
are you looking into pre-owned or vintage Rolex? pre-owned could include all Rolex models, even current ones. vintage are, of course all pre-owned unless you could stumble upon a NOS vintage (unlikely!!)
-
Hobbit's criteria of 4 digit reference is fine. One cannot equate cars with watches. Cars are classified as Vintage if produced before second world war ( 1939 ) , Classic from 1940 up to 25 years ago. Veteran cars are produced before first world war (1914). I have collected vintage and classic cars for the past 34 years , having owned 2 vintage cars of 1929 and many classic cars made from 1946 till 1976.
-
Vintage (50 more years) - I feel that when it comes to this category, its best to buy from auction houses...never have, and doubt I ever will...financially! :laugh:
With the exception of ebay, the vintage pieces offered by the auction houses are most likely to be beyond the reach of mere mortals like me.
Even the most famous auction houses have been known to make mistakes.
What keeps me from collecting vintage Rolex is the fact that Rolex no longer product spare parts for their watches after certain number of years after production has stopped.
It is indeed worrisome that even the self declared experts are not immune to errors when it comes to the world of vintage timepieces.
As for Rolex's service support for vintage watches, does anyone know exactly where Rolex draws the line, say 20 years after the last production pieces has left the factory?
:Cheers:
-
To me if you want to start, arm yourself with the knowledge on vintage Rolex watches. It can be a minefield or not. Here at a number of books, like James Dowling book, The Best of Time, Rolex Wristwatches and the other book is Vintage Rolex Sports Models. For those who can read Japanese, there are many Japanese magazine books (mooks) that deal with the brand and let me tell you the Japanese can be very fanatical when it comes to Rolex.
However the main thing you have to establish is how fanatical are you about the watch? Are you a purist? This means no service dials or hands or bezel inserts or even bracelets. What about the crown and stem tube? What about the crystal? And I am not talking about acrylic vs sapphire but would service tropic crystal be ok? Would a super dome be considered favourable vs a normal dome on a Submariner?
I do have access to these 2 excellent books but I guess I haven't been studying hard enough. ;D
The Japanese can be fanatical on anything that they put their mind to.
As for parts, how do service replacements affect these watches? I've heard that serious collectors do prefer the original dial and hands. However would a badly tarnished dial be preferable to a new service dial? Also will 3rd party replacement parts substantially affect the value of the piece?
To start I suggest a Sub or a GMT.
Why because they are plenty and price has not reach the sky ... yet.
I'll start by looking for a 5513. The interesting is the model has gone thru many face lift and certainly a joy to study the evolution.
The 1675 is where I will start. It's the same with the 5513 as it also has a long production life and gone thru many changes.
The pitfall are
1. Lots harder to tell fake from real.
2. Servicing could be an issue
3. Price gap between a fair and good condition is huge.
4. They are more fragile than new watch. (I know rolex suppose to be durable but these are 30~40 years watches ;) )
There are some books to read but they aren't all that accurate so must be taken with a grain of salt.
I'll post some photos when I have time.
I agree that the Sub or GMT will be a reasonable starting point, especially the 5513 and 1675.
And the pitfalls that you've mentioned are indeed scary for someone without the requisite experience and knowledge. I guess one way to learn fast is to learn through one's mistakes.
Is Rolex service support still available for these 2 models that you mentioned?
Looking forward to your pics.
very informative. i learn another lesson even tho is abit late for me. everyday learn something new :thumbsup:
It's not too late to turn from the dark side. :D
:Cheers:
-
As for Rolex's service support for vintage watches, does anyone know exactly where Rolex draws the line, say 20 years after the last production pieces has left the factory?
:Cheers:
I have been told many times that RSC will support a model in term of parts up to 30 years. However, based on experience, that is not entirely true.
Don't really know how RSC works or if they actually pool their parts making it available worldwide or that they have their own pool (within the country) that is not shared and a general pool from which they can draw on. I say this because RSC support from country to country can differ (and it does). For example, the support the reference 1675 here in Taiwan is great but not so great elsewhere. Same applies for the reference 5513. Locally they do not have the crystal, but I know RSC elsewhere does.
-
I have been told many times that RSC will support a model in term of parts up to 30 years. However, based on experience, that is not entirely true.
Don't really know how RSC works or if they actually pool their parts making it available worldwide or that they have their own pool (within the country) that is not shared and a general pool from which they can draw on. I say this because RSC support from country to country can differ (and it does). For example, the support the reference 1675 here in Taiwan is great but not so great elsewhere. Same applies for the reference 5513. Locally they do not have the crystal, but I know RSC elsewhere does.
Hi Ivan,
Thanks for the info. With such inconsistent policies it seems that the RSC is keeping up with Rolex tradition of being as opaque and mysterious as possible.
:Cheers:
-
I do have access to these 2 excellent books but I guess I haven't been studying hard enough. ;D
The Japanese can be fanatical on anything that they put their mind to.
As for parts, how do service replacements affect these watches? I've heard that serious collectors do prefer the original dial and hands. However would a badly tarnished dial be preferable to a new service dial? Also will 3rd party replacement parts substantially affect the value of the piece?
Well here is where it gets a little complicated. It order to give you a clear picture. First we must establish a benchmark or criteria to determine the value of these watches.
The factors are
1. Rarity (numbers produce)
2. Wearability (those where the size are smaller than 35mm are not well receive)
3. History (own by celebrity, famous collector or represent an important event)
4. Availability (special issued, not sell thru AD or boutique)
5. Design (some are odd but attractive, some just plain ugly)
Not any one factor outweigh the others but it all goes hand in hand.
Now to answer your question if a model is seriously rare like the Sub 6200, factory service hand or even dial are acceptable because it's too rare. It will affect it value but not that much or rather the all original will command super high premium. However for a model that's not as rare the service dial and hand will effect its value considerably.
3rd party are often view as fake. Unless the parts are so rare that some enthusiast took the trouble to manufacture a new one that retain its original look. Then they call it aftermarket and these ain't the cheap stuff we found on the bay.
If we take the 5513/1675 as a case study.
My advice is never take an aftermarket dial because original ones are plenty to be found. Hands I can tolerate as long as it's make to look correct to the original.
As for servicing the vintage watch. There are 3 source that available.
1. RSC run by Rolex
2. RSC appoint by Rolex
3. Season watchmaker train by Rolex.
They all have their pros/cons. I personally found out that a good relation with a season watchmaker is worth the trouble and risk. Even they are often old and temperamental but they treat a watch like they treat their children. The have this pride in them. That's why we look for a season ones not a youngster and because they are season hence they're old. BTW 10 years experience is not season. My criteria is at least 15 years. We want them to be train by rolex because it will solve the parts issue. Servicing a rolex watch is not hard but getting the genuine rolex parts is. Only people in the circle know where the parts are located.
I find if even I brought a vintage rolex to RSC I ran the risk of having my movement5 and parts upgraded. The vintage movement is gone the tritium dial is relume or worse replace! The case is super polish and look new. Then what's the point of having a vintage watch. A vintage watch that look new is just an old model watch not vintage. It has no appeal. The history and memory of the watch is all erase. Sometimes I have no say to RSC to do it my way so I usually sort outside help.
To start I suggest a Sub or a GMT.
Why because they are plenty and price has not reach the sky ... yet.
I'll start by looking for a 5513. The interesting is the model has gone thru many face lift and certainly a joy to study the evolution.
The 1675 is where I will start. It's the same with the 5513 as it also has a long production life and gone thru many changes.
The pitfall are
1. Lots harder to tell fake from real.
2. Servicing could be an issue
3. Price gap between a fair and good condition is huge.
4. They are more fragile than new watch. (I know rolex suppose to be durable but these are 30~40 years watches ;) )
There are some books to read but they aren't all that accurate so must be taken with a grain of salt.
I'll post some photos when I have time.
I agree that the Sub or GMT will be a reasonable starting point, especially the 5513 and 1675.
And the pitfalls that you've mentioned are indeed scary for someone without the requisite experience and knowledge. I guess one way to learn fast is to learn through one's mistakes.
Is Rolex service support still available for these 2 models that you mentioned?
Looking forward to your pics.
very informative. i learn another lesson even tho is abit late for me. everyday learn something new :thumbsup:
It's not too late to turn from the dark side. :D
:Cheers:
This post is long enough as it is. I'll post my reply in 2nd post for ease of reading.
Regard
Tyler
-
As for parts, how do service replacements affect these watches? I've heard that serious collectors do prefer the original dial and hands. However would a badly tarnished dial be preferable to a new service dial? Also will 3rd party replacement parts substantially affect the value of the piece?
It does not have an impact to me but to some it does. As long as the replacement parts are Rolex original and correct to the watch (this is important), I am not really concerned. That said, replacing tritium parts with luminova is a no no to me. Some people or collectors are very particular, no service parts at all. So they prefer the original even if it is worn out, broken or faded. As long as he watch is not Franken in anyway, I am ok. I have a reference 1675 that has been rebuild by RSC back in the 80s. It has a service dial, hands and even a service case (with a service serial number). I like the watch no end. To some, the watch is a no no, but to me, it is a Rolex with a lot of history.
We do need to be very careful with what we buy when it comes to vintage Rolex. There are lots of loose parts for sale, lots of old parts for sale and lots of fake parts for sale. Changing parts to make a vintage watch is not beyond some people, so be very careful.
-
They all have their pros/cons. I personally found out that a good relation with a season watchmaker is worth the trouble and risk. Even they are often old and temperamental but they treat a watch like they treat their children. The have this pride in them. That's why we look for a season ones not a youngster and because they are season hence they're old. BTW 10 years experience is not season. My criteria is at least 15 years. We want them to be train by rolex because it will solve the parts issue. Servicing a rolex watch is not hard but getting the genuine rolex parts is. Only people in the circle know where the parts are located.
Hi Tyler,
Thanks for taking the time to reply so comprehensively. Now I know who to turn to for recommendations if I ever need a seasoned Rolex trained watch maker. :thumbsup:
That said, replacing tritium parts with luminova is a no no to me. Some people or collectors are very particular, no service parts at all. So they prefer the original even if it is worn out, broken or faded. As long as he watch is not Franken in anyway, I am ok. I have a reference 1675 that has been rebuild by RSC back in the 80s. It has a service dial, hands and even a service case (with a service serial number). I like the watch no end. To some, the watch is a no no, but to me, it is a Rolex with a lot of history.
We do need to be very careful with what we buy when it comes to vintage Rolex. There are lots of loose parts for sale, lots of old parts for sale and lots of fake parts for sale. Changing parts to make a vintage watch is not beyond some people, so be very careful.
Hi Ivan,
I agree that an original tritium dial, especially those which have developed the much desired patina" should be retained with the watch.
Great to hear about your 1675. Hope you can share some pics of your beloved GMT and perhaps share the history (I'm curious to learn more about a service case for the watch) here.
And thanks for the caution regarding fake parts in a vintage Rolex.
:Cheers:
-
Hope you can share some pics of your beloved GMT and perhaps share the history (I'm curious to learn more about a service case for the watch) here.
:Cheers:
The watch.
(http://i320.photobucket.com/albums/nn322/TheHobbit_01/Collection/DSC_8355.jpg)
(http://i320.photobucket.com/albums/nn322/TheHobbit_01/Collection/DSC_8352.jpg)
(http://i320.photobucket.com/albums/nn322/TheHobbit_01/Collection/DSC_8353.jpg)
-
That's a real beauty. Love the patina on the markers and hands. :thumbsup:
Thanks for sharing.
:Cheers:
-
Hi Danny,
Basically the watch is from 1964. The owner got the watch from a sailor who got the watch in Christmas Island. He (the sailor) was losing badly in gambling and decided to sell the watch. He sold it for a grand sum of RM300 which the buyer did not have. The buyer borrowed the money from a friend and paid the seller. Best of all the seller had all the papers with him (but no box). The buyer ended up with the watch and a RM300 debt which he settled over 10 months. All this back in 1964. He had the watch on his wrist since that day until the watch went in to RSC Malaysia for a service. RSC rebuilt the watch with a new service case, dial, hands, crystal, crown, stem tube and some of the movement parts. That was in 1986. The watch was on the wrist with no service for 22 years. Any doubt about Rolex and if it can last, well.......
The watch was in a bad shape when it went in and basically what you see in the photographs is from 1986 to today. The only thing that has been changed since then is the crystal, crown and stem tube (every 6 years). Oh yes, the watch went through 3 metal bracelets as well. Oh the serial number changed as well. The service case has the 43xxxxx to 47xxxxx serial number. Evidently these serial numbers were reserved for service cases. I do know that some RSC (HK and Philippines) use to engrave the old serial number on the service case (but not anymore).
What has the watch been through? Up telephone poles, down manholes, out to sea, trip around Malaysia, daily bath (for 22 years), basically never leaving the owners wrist. Testament to Rolex and its quality.
Best of all, I have the papers for the watch (including all service receipts).
-
Hi Ivan,
Wow, that's one watch with an impressive history. Imagine the watch running faithfully for 22 years without service.
Anyone who has any doubts as to the durability and reliability of a Rolex (as well as its utility as a storage of monetary value) should be very much assured after reading your narrative. :thumbsup:
Thanks for sharing.
:Cheers:
-
@Hobbs
Now that's what I call history... going thru countless years of service and thru water, sunshine and some occasional mud and dust... now it's safely in your possession, which I believe will be kept with great care for another quarter century!! :Cheers:
-
Hope you can share some pics of your beloved GMT and perhaps share the history (I'm curious to learn more about a service case for the watch) here.
:Cheers:
The watch.
(http://i320.photobucket.com/albums/nn322/TheHobbit_01/Collection/DSC_8355.jpg)
(http://i320.photobucket.com/albums/nn322/TheHobbit_01/Collection/DSC_8352.jpg)
(http://i320.photobucket.com/albums/nn322/TheHobbit_01/Collection/DSC_8353.jpg)
holy cow, that's beautiful ivan. now u got me hooked.
-
Hehe you're dead now
(http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w501/TdBean/rolex_image2259958.jpg)
holy cow, that's beautiful ivan. now u got me hooked.
-
Hobs...
That a great history of your rollie.....keep it up.
dc
-
Hehe you're dead now
(http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w501/TdBean/rolex_image2259958.jpg)
holy cow, that's beautiful ivan. now u got me hooked.
WOW!!!!!!!!
-
Welcome to my nightmare. :shocked1:
Hehe you're dead now
(http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w501/TdBean/rolex_image2259958.jpg)
WOW!!!!!!!!
-
Hehe you're dead now
(http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w501/TdBean/rolex_image2259958.jpg)
now u kill alot of ppl here..
-
This is the sick part.
Tropical brown dial. Patina at its best!
(http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w501/TdBean/rolex_image2776788.jpg)
Photo by by the same person
Aging to a nice even color is the hardest part. A grail is not a grail if is easy obtainable.
Regard
Tyler
Hehe you're dead now
(http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w501/TdBean/rolex_image2259958.jpg)
now u kill alot of ppl here..
-
Thanks for starting an informative and poisonous thread!!!
8) 8) 8) 8)
Please keep it coming.
-
Tyler, tell us more on this beauty. what's her history etc
-
OK. First thing first. I don't own this watch... ... at least now I don't.
This is one of my dream watch.
The model is the early case of the first Sea-Dweller model, REF. 1665.
History of Rolex Sea-Dweller
When Rolex wants to develop an ultimate dive watch they seek COMEX for collaboration. Comex is a company that pioneer deep depth dive. After a few prototypes and testing with the existing model (mainly 5513), the Sea-Dweller is borned carrying the ref. 1665.
The initial idea is to present this model as a super submariner. One that have a depth rating of 2000ft, so Submariner 2000 is the name chosen but somehow the name Sea-Dweller got chosen as well. That's why the early 1665 carry both names on the dial and in red fonts. Hence the nickname Double Red Sea-Dweller (DRSD).
What's is more exciting is that during the production life of the ref 1665 exist 2 case profile and 2 dial version.
a thin case or a thick case,
a double red dial or white fonts sea-dweller dial without the "Submariner 2000" text.
The switch of the case happen in mid 60s while the dial changes happen in early 70s.
The thin case and the red text came first then follow by thick case and finally the white texts. There are less thin case than the thick. However according to some expert the red fonts dial exist in higher volume than the white fonts. I have not seen any official documents stating that claim.
Of course there're micro difference for various red dial and the white dial as well(too broad and too detail to go into now). To me the most interesting period for rolex has to be the mid 60s. Here is where the brown dial phenomenon happen. Dial made in this period has the tendency to develop to the color of chocolate brown. A version of the so called "tropical dial". There are other tropical dial in other period but none possess this kind of "brown"
The ultimate dream (my grail) is a thin case, DRSD with chocolate brown dial. The watch is super cool but the price is super not cool :Scolding:
I guess that's why it stay as a grail. Maybe one day ... ... (I am hopeful)
Hope you enjoy this post.
Regard
Tyler
Tyler, tell us more on this beauty. what's her history etc
-
Hobbit....your 1675 is killing us....
-
Aiya, thought is yours, so that I can molest it :HammerHead:
-
I wish the same but finding one is hard and funding one is harder :o
Regard
Tyler
Aiya, thought is yours, so that I can molest it :HammerHead:
-
I must add. ....Tyler and Hobbs...thanks for the lessons. keep them coming! :thumbsup:
I do have a practical question...
Assuming we have done some reading and shortlisted several `reputable' online vintage dealers (decent recommendation by previous customers, forums, etc).
Is it normal/rude(?) to ask these sellers to declare/reveal everything about a particular watch, in terms of replacement of parts when we write in for the first time ? From what I gather here, a major concern is replacement by service-parts, franken parts, or parts that do not match the actual model, etc, etc. I am interested to know if sellers will actually give a complete or exhaustive list of any parts that has been replaced, and what the replacements were.
Or maybe they just reveal the major external ones (dial, hands, etc) or merely provide additional close up photos, and the rest is up to the buyer to decide. Meaning the onus is on the buyer to quickly get the watch inspected after receiving it. After inspection, if the buyer is not satisfy with the presence of any undesirable parts, they can then return the watch, as long as its within the timeline stated in the return of goods policy.
thanks!
-
I must add. ....Tyler and Hobbs...thanks for the lessons. keep them coming! :thumbsup:
I do have a practical question...
Assuming we have done some reading and shortlisted several `reputable' online vintage dealers (decent recommendation by previous customers, forums, etc).
Is it normal/rude(?) to ask these sellers to declare/reveal everything about a particular watch, in terms of replacement of parts when we write in for the first time ? From what I gather here, a major concern is replacement by service-parts, franken parts, or parts that do not match the actual model, etc, etc. I am interested to know if sellers will actually give a complete or exhaustive list of any parts that has been replaced, and what the replacements were.
Or maybe they just reveal the major external ones (dial, hands, etc) or merely provide additional close up photos, and the rest is up to the buyer to decide. Meaning the onus is on the buyer to quickly get the watch inspected after receiving it. After inspection, if the buyer is not satisfy with the presence of any undesirable parts, they can then return the watch, as long as its within the timeline stated in the return of goods policy.
thanks!
Personally I don't find it unreasonable to ask. However you will need to appreciate that the seller themselves may not know what was replaced unless he was the owner. The best thing is that you have access to some forums where the members are 'experts' and can and sometimes will tell you if the watch is dubious. You will still need to do your home work. Most important is that the money is yours and the watch is theirs. If they do not want (different from could not) to tell you, move on. There will be others. Important to buy the seller. I know of one on-line seller that will tell you everything to the best of his knowledge.
All the best with the hunt.
-
I must add. ....Tyler and Hobbs...thanks for the lessons. keep them coming! :thumbsup:
I do have a practical question...
Assuming we have done some reading and shortlisted several `reputable' online vintage dealers (decent recommendation by previous customers, forums, etc).
Is it normal/rude(?) to ask these sellers to declare/reveal everything about a particular watch, in terms of replacement of parts when we write in for the first time ? From what I gather here, a major concern is replacement by service-parts, franken parts, or parts that do not match the actual model, etc, etc. I am interested to know if sellers will actually give a complete or exhaustive list of any parts that has been replaced, and what the replacements were.
Or maybe they just reveal the major external ones (dial, hands, etc) or merely provide additional close up photos, and the rest is up to the buyer to decide. Meaning the onus is on the buyer to quickly get the watch inspected after receiving it. After inspection, if the buyer is not satisfy with the presence of any undesirable parts, they can then return the watch, as long as its within the timeline stated in the return of goods policy.
thanks!
Personally I don't find it unreasonable to ask. However you will need to appreciate that the seller themselves may not know what was replaced unless he was the owner. The best thing is that you have access to some forums where the members are 'experts' and can and sometimes will tell you if the watch is dubious. You will still need to do your home work. Most important is that the money is yours and the watch is theirs. If they do not want (different from could not) to tell you, move on. There will be others. Important to buy the seller. I know of one on-line seller that will tell you everything to the best of his knowledge.
All the best with the hunt.
thanks bro! its amazing, that we will always go back to that old but tried and tested motto...buy the seller. Yeah, the money belongs to the buyer and there should never be an unnecessary pressure to buy. :Cheers:
The last part of you post is most exciting....mind sending the pm for that particular seller? ;D
-
Even forum "experts" can be wrong.
I posted a watch in another famous forum where the are the most "experts".
One said dial is wrong, one said even the font of the word is funny!
Some said the placement of the logo is off by few mm!
Thing is, unless you have the real thing in front of you, a picture can only tell so much.
-
How did you find out at the end?
Regard
Tyler
Even forum "experts" can be wrong.
I posted a watch in another famous forum where the are the most "experts".
One said dial is wrong, one said even the font of the word is funny!
Some said the placement of the logo is off by few mm!
Thing is, unless you have the real thing in front of you, a picture can only tell so much.
-
Back to the factory and case solved.
ALL original.
Thats why how matter how good the internet experts are, unless they have the watch in hand, nothing is for sure.
But back to the topic.
I once saw a shop selling a 5513 with Explorer dial. How rare is that!
But upon hearing a conversation between the boss and the middleman. Apparently its made up of parts which they say is correct for the model. Means dial,hands, crown etc is sourced separately and put together.
Still original?
They even went as far as hand carry the watch to Rolex in Swiss to check for "service", whether they did the service or not i am not sure.
Still wanna buy it? Some will some will not.
And dont ask me which shop it is.
-
How old is the watch? It went back to Geneva for authentication?
Regard
Tyler
Back to the factory and case solved.
ALL original.
Thats why how matter how good the internet experts are, unless they have the watch in hand, nothing is for sure.
But back to the topic.
I once saw a shop selling a 5513 with Explorer dial. How rare is that!
But upon hearing a conversation between the boss and the middleman. Apparently its made up of parts which they say is correct for the model. Means dial,hands, crown etc is sourced separately and put together.
Still original?
They even went as far as hand carry the watch to Rolex in Swiss to check for "service", whether they did the service or not i am not sure.
Still wanna buy it? Some will some will not.
And dont ask me which shop it is.
-
As old as a 5513 can get?
No idea, didnt bother to ask. Like i said, the owner paid the middleman to hand carry the watch back to Geneva.
-
Not Double Red but my friend was trying to offload this beauty... with papers and from Steve Mulholland
(http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p186/terrenceterrenceterrence/f1273dd2.jpg)
(http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p186/terrenceterrenceterrence/bf9f3647.jpg)
(http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p186/terrenceterrenceterrence/a3d569bc.jpg)
(http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p186/terrenceterrenceterrence/858209cf.jpg)
(http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p186/terrenceterrenceterrence/7fe8261f.jpg)
-
The pip look like SL to me ?
-
not sure about that. was with him on a hunt that day for a period correct bracelet and endlinks and manage to find it. now it's a complete period correct head and bracelet.
as for the bezel...not sure. photos taken with my old 3gs
not an expert on the details but compared to my SL 14060M, the pip have on my bezel have a more pronounced "metal surround" around the pip. The Single Red has none.
-
Actually I'm asking about the watch you post on the other forum. How old is your watch?
Regard
Tyler
As old as a 5513 can get?
No idea, didnt bother to ask. Like i said, the owner paid the middleman to hand carry the watch back to Geneva.
-
Bout 26-30yrs old.
-
So is a watch in the 80s. It should be easy to track the actual year. Curious about such a wide gap in the years.
Regards
Tyler
Bout 26-30yrs old.
-
Wow! A very, very informative thread. I learn another lesson on Rolex from all the sifus/bro.s here.
To summarizes -
Vintage watch can be 20 years and earlier. That means watches before 1980s are deemed vintage.
Advices to someone who is looking to enter the pre-owned/vintage Rolex market -
From Bro Hobbit(Ivan) : Arm oneself by reading on the subject matter (from books, internet etc) and ask oneself if he/she is a purist or not.
From Bro Godzillaz(Tyler) : Stick to few basic sports model like GMT, Subs, Sea Dweller, E, E2 & Daytona. Reasons have a few plus point like easier to find reference and seller, not losing much in terms of value and easier to offload because it's popular.
Pitfalls to consider - as Rolex is so famous since many, many years ago, there are also many, many fakes. Another one is "franken" watch (I think from the term "frankenstein" meaning a "rojak" watch made from various parts not belonging to that model.
For me who is on a shoestring budget, I was informed to look for a manual winding Rolex. :D
Looking particularly at the 6694. But I am at lost since there are too many decent and nice looking dials around. :Confused:
-
Very informative thread here.
thanks for sharing people.
:thumbsup:
P/s:this thread is poisonous! vintage poisoned!
-
yup very nice write up guys!!! my next purchase would be either vintage oyster datejust or submariner...
really poisoning haha
-
Fantastic looking watch and history.
Hope you can share some pics of your beloved GMT and perhaps share the history (I'm curious to learn more about a service case for the watch) here.
:Cheers:
The watch.
(http://i320.photobucket.com/albums/nn322/TheHobbit_01/Collection/DSC_8355.jpg)
(http://i320.photobucket.com/albums/nn322/TheHobbit_01/Collection/DSC_8352.jpg)
(http://i320.photobucket.com/albums/nn322/TheHobbit_01/Collection/DSC_8353.jpg)
-
How much did it sold for in the end?
Not Double Red but my friend was trying to offload this beauty... with papers and from Steve Mulholland
(http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p186/terrenceterrenceterrence/f1273dd2.jpg)
(http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p186/terrenceterrenceterrence/bf9f3647.jpg)
(http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p186/terrenceterrenceterrence/a3d569bc.jpg)
(http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p186/terrenceterrenceterrence/858209cf.jpg)
(http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p186/terrenceterrenceterrence/7fe8261f.jpg)
-
Hi Danny,
Basically the watch is from 1964. The owner got the watch from a sailor who got the watch in Christmas Island. He (the sailor) was losing badly in gambling and decided to sell the watch. He sold it for a grand sum of RM300 which the buyer did not have. The buyer borrowed the money from a friend and paid the seller. Best of all the seller had all the papers with him (but no box). The buyer ended up with the watch and a RM300 debt which he settled over 10 months. All this back in 1964. He had the watch on his wrist since that day until the watch went in to RSC Malaysia for a service. RSC rebuilt the watch with a new service case, dial, hands, crystal, crown, stem tube and some of the movement parts. That was in 1986. The watch was on the wrist with no service for 22 years. Any doubt about Rolex and if it can last, well.......
The watch was in a bad shape when it went in and basically what you see in the photographs is from 1986 to today. The only thing that has been changed since then is the crystal, crown and stem tube (every 6 years). Oh yes, the watch went through 3 metal bracelets as well. Oh the serial number changed as well. The service case has the 43xxxxx to 47xxxxx serial number. Evidently these serial numbers were reserved for service cases. I do know that some RSC (HK and Philippines) use to engrave the old serial number on the service case (but not anymore).
What has the watch been through? Up telephone poles, down manholes, out to sea, trip around Malaysia, daily bath (for 22 years), basically never leaving the owners wrist. Testament to Rolex and its quality.
Best of all, I have the papers for the watch (including all service receipts).
great patina n history of your 1675. it would be nicer if the original dial survived. GMT's of 1964 are of gilt dials, small 24hr hand with serial of ard 1.1M+
in fact, rolex has also achieved "look after it for the next generation" as well. wear it in good health :Cheers:
-
How much did it sold for in the end?
Not Double Red but my friend was trying to offload this beauty... with papers and from Steve Mulholland
(http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p186/terrenceterrenceterrence/f1273dd2.jpg)
(http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p186/terrenceterrenceterrence/bf9f3647.jpg)
(http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p186/terrenceterrenceterrence/a3d569bc.jpg)
(http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p186/terrenceterrenceterrence/858209cf.jpg)
(http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p186/terrenceterrenceterrence/7fe8261f.jpg)
this mark 4 red sub is fitted with service crystal n 93150 bracelet. the so-called "correct" red sub bracelet should be 9315 in early 70's. however, these don't affect its value.
-
I'm bumping this thread because I found it quite informative and would like to see if anyone else can continue the discussion :)
I'm learning more about vintage watches now while I'm looking for a Rolex circa 1984 to purchase. Anyone purchased a vintage Rolex before in KL? Can recommend any shops to look at?
-
Hope you can share some pics of your beloved GMT and perhaps share the history (I'm curious to learn more about a service case for the watch) here.
:Cheers:
The watch.
(http://i320.photobucket.com/albums/nn322/TheHobbit_01/Collection/DSC_8355.jpg)
(http://i320.photobucket.com/albums/nn322/TheHobbit_01/Collection/DSC_8352.jpg)
(http://i320.photobucket.com/albums/nn322/TheHobbit_01/Collection/DSC_8353.jpg)
Holy shit, that's a beautiful piece i would love to own one! :Dancing_banana:
-
I'm bumping this thread because I found it quite informative and would like to see if anyone else can continue the discussion :)
I'm learning more about vintage watches now while I'm looking for a Rolex circa 1984 to purchase. Anyone purchased a vintage Rolex before in KL? Can recommend any shops to look at?
i am looking for one reputable shop that deals with vintage rolex. if any knows of any, would be appreciative of you to share the contacts. thanks in advance! :)
-
Hello looking for a nice 5513 sub. Anyone to let pls let me know thanks