Author Topic: The History of Panerai & Rolex : distant cousins ? brothers ?  (Read 16428 times)

Offline kentkoh79

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The History of Panerai & Rolex : distant cousins ? brothers ?
« on: September 12, 2012, 08:14:44 PM »
For those who really interested to know more regarding the real history of Panerai  , just sharing this very good article from a Rolex master point of view : Jake's Rolex world

"Panerai has a fascinating and colorful history which is woven in with the history of Rolex as well as with the Royal Italian Navy, the German Kampfschwimmer's and the Egyptian Army. Rolex and Panerai are thought by many as being distant cousins, but as we will learn, they are much more like brothers"

http://rolexblog.blogspot.com/2009/07/part-3-complete-history-of-rolex.html


Offline Enkidu

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Re: The History of Panerai & Rolex : distant cousins ? brothers ?
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2012, 10:34:57 PM »
For those who really interested to know more regarding the real history of Panerai  , just sharing this very good article from a Rolex master point of view : Jake's Rolex world

"Panerai has a fascinating and colorful history which is woven in with the history of Rolex as well as with the Royal Italian Navy, the German Kampfschwimmer's and the Egyptian Army. Rolex and Panerai are thought by many as being distant cousins, but as we will learn, they are much more like brothers"

http://rolexblog.blogspot.com/2009/07/part-3-complete-history-of-rolex.html

Hi, Kent,

The above statement is all in the present tense...."they are much more like brothers...". My thought is, unless today there are some Rolex parts in the PAM (for example Rolex mainspring etc in a PAM111 or 112 etc), or PAM parts in Rolex (for example parts from PAM's in-house movement in a sub), can they still be realistically described as cousins or brothers? I wonder if there is another yet unfound article saying Zenith and Rolex are also brothers. My view is these products are as brotherly as me saying Bill Gates and Li Kashing are brothers.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 10:54:17 PM by Enkidu »

Offline kentkoh79

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Re: The History of Panerai & Rolex : distant cousins ? brothers ?
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2012, 06:12:46 AM »
Hi Endiku ,

Oh well , that is the author's point of view...My point of view is that without Rolex , there is no Panerai today . What I mean is that Rolex really played  a crucial role in the initial developmental history of Panerai around year 1936. Panerai today most basic design and DNA ( its Radiomir "pillow case") was given and designed by rolex even though Rolex that time was not sincere enough and given Panerai the most ugly and abandoned design they never thought for production. ha ! BUt they also never predicted that the design that they given to Panerai after 70 years become 1 most the most unique and famous design among world of watches . Since the DNA of Panerai today is given and designed by Rolex , so can we called them distant cousins? brothers ? For me ....it is more like father and abandoned son ...ha ! since the Whole DNA of Panerai today ....is given birth by Rolex's abandoned design :)

Offline TheHobbit

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Re: The History of Panerai & Rolex : distant cousins ? brothers ?
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2012, 06:40:54 AM »
The 'last' Panerai that was issued with a Rolex movement was the PAM00021, issued in 1997. Why 'last'? Well, Panerai still have some stock of old Rolex movements......

Offline Enkidu

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Re: The History of Panerai & Rolex : distant cousins ? brothers ?
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2012, 07:20:47 AM »
The 'last' Panerai that was issued with a Rolex movement was the PAM00021, issued in 1997. Why 'last'? Well, Panerai still have some stock of old Rolex movements......

Yes, the one with the rare Rolex 681?? movement but low PR of 38-40 hrs if I  am not wrong. But with OP moving up the chain with its own movement, do you reckon we will see future PAMs with Rolex movements?

Offline tonykpk

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Re: The History of Panerai & Rolex : distant cousins ? brothers ?
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2012, 07:46:36 AM »
I don't Think Rolex would want to sell their movements to anyone at this moment.regards tony
The 'last' Panerai that was issued with a Rolex movement was the PAM00021, issued in 1997. Why 'last'? Well, Panerai still have some stock of old Rolex movements......

Yes, the one with the rare Rolex 681?? movement but low PR of 38-40 hrs if I  am not wrong. But with OP moving up the chain with its own movement, do you reckon we will see future PAMs with Rolex movements?

Offline TheHobbit

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Re: The History of Panerai & Rolex : distant cousins ? brothers ?
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2012, 07:55:03 AM »
The 'last' Panerai that was issued with a Rolex movement was the PAM00021, issued in 1997. Why 'last'? Well, Panerai still have some stock of old Rolex movements......

Yes, the one with the rare Rolex 681?? movement but low PR of 38-40 hrs if I  am not wrong. But with OP moving up the chain with its own movement, do you reckon we will see future PAMs with Rolex movements?

Yes, the one with the Rolex 618. With its low pr of about 48 hours allows the lucky owners to connect with the watch more often then not. As for the future, who knows. All we know is that panerai still has stock of those old Rolex 618 movement.

Offline kentkoh79

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Re: The History of Panerai & Rolex : distant cousins ? brothers ?
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2012, 09:03:20 AM »
Just wanna to add-on....The Pig - Maiali  , a very interesting part of panerai history....a logo/symbol that all paneristi are dying for....why ?




For those who are interested to find out the reason why Panerai watches with Maiali logo are highly sought-after can read the article from the link below :
http://rolexblog.blogspot.com/2007/07/chapter-3-complete-history-of-rolex_27.html

I just can't understand.....why the watch that was purposely designed for military usage 70 years ago ...and had gone through uncountable missions during world war II suddenly become a fashion watch today :)
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 09:17:12 AM by kentkoh79 »

Offline TheHobbit

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Re: The History of Panerai & Rolex : distant cousins ? brothers ?
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2012, 11:09:54 AM »
Kentkoh79,

I would not say that all paneristi would die for the SLC logo or symbol. Some do and some don't. As for why watches with the SLC is popular, reasons are many, passion, history, cute, commercialism, ignorance, anything basically. Just make sure you get it for the right reasons.....

Offline kentkoh79

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Re: The History of Panerai & Rolex : distant cousins ? brothers ?
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2012, 11:26:34 AM »
bro Hobbit ,

Agreed with u . Not all risti are looking for the maiali logo , bcoz the most hardcore risti only prefer the most basic and origin of panerai DNA .most of them only prefer 3,6,9,12 on the dial and no more ,no less. Pls correct me if i am wrong. I also believe that why the launching of PAM 372 last year caused such a stirr in the market wihich it is almost 95% identical to 6152 - the holy grail for most of the true and hardcore risti.

Offline TheHobbit

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Re: The History of Panerai & Rolex : distant cousins ? brothers ?
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2012, 11:43:50 AM »
bro Hobbit ,

Agreed with u . Not all risti are looking for the maiali logo , bcoz the most hardcore risti only prefer the most basic and origin of panerai DNA .most of them only prefer 3,6,9,12 on the dial and no more ,no less. Pls correct me if i am wrong. I also believe that why the launching of PAM 372 last year caused such a stirr in the market wihich it is almost 95% identical to 6152 - the holy grail for most of the true and hardcore risti.

Most collectors like the base model with the zero being the most popular as it is as close as you can get to the 5218-201a logo. The base is the essence of simplicity, easy to read dial. Personally I prefer the luminor marina, the model with the sub seconds dial.

As for the 372, it was a long time coming and it is great to see it a regular production watch. As for it being the holy grail, I would not know. To me it is a nice watch that many have asked and waited for.

Offline Godzillaz

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Re: The History of Panerai & Rolex : distant cousins ? brothers ?
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2012, 01:07:40 PM »
The connection between the two are more than meets the eye.

What does Rolex does really well?

1. Marketing
2. Association of a public event (sports, exploration, etc)
3. Image of a waterproof watch

The modern Panerai Company (Officine Panerai, I'll use short form OP from now) surprisingly have more of the same list

1. Marketing (it does it so well some ranked it as high as a fashion brand now)
2. Association with public figure, mostly celebrity (I remember seeing photo Disney's CEO wore a luminor to the board meeting) 
3. Image of a WW2 watch


What's the different?

Oh yes. OP has use numerous 3rd party movement, just something on top of my head Zenith, Minerva, Omega, Rolex, Angelus, ETA, Valjoux, JLC and Piaget. There might be more as am don't think I remember it all.

Funny thing is Rolex was never taken seriously until the early 80s. When the Hongkie goreng it up. Ask someone who is above 65 years old what is the best brand back in the 50s, 60s or 70s almost no one will say Rolex. What you'll hear is Omega or Titoni. On an more up scale level maybe you'll hear the name Vacheron or Cartier, yup that's right Patek wasn't even there yet.

If we talk about the legendary robustness of Rolex watch, I'm afraid it only limit to the Sea-Dweller and Explorer 1. Not Sub cos up until the mid 60s Rolex still can't keep the Sub water tight pass 60m. Real diver use omega, blancpain or Doxa. It's the Sea-Dweller that show great improvement in water resistancy and Rolex had help, COMEX.

The way Panerai went about it is different. The old Panerai is predominantly an instrument manufacturer and supplier. The Italian Navy was one of their client and when the Navy request for a diving watch (an instrument back in the days). Panerai went to Rolex for the reason I believe

1. Panerai was selling Rolex watches in the little Firenze store.
2. Rolex was honking the waterproof ability of its watch so Panerai think "ok why not?"
3. Why risk screwing things up ourselves if there a best out in the market and is available for purchase.

The 1st batch of watches given to Panerai from Rolex did not pass the Navy's test. Water tideness was an issue and Rolex haven't solve it. 2 more batch were deliver over a period of 2 year. They were better but the issue still remain. What Guido Panerai (the man that helm panerai at the time) did on its own was they went into R&D to solve those issues. The famous crown guard is one. The super bright luminescence subtance Radiomir and Luminor is another.

Improvement also being make by experimenting with different case but I believe those are not sole Panerai effort.

The panerai watches were being put into real use way before any submariner since the Sub only enter into the market around 1953 (long way from WW2).

Yes they were not perfect but these Italians have balls and they made it, both the frogman and Guido Panerai show human spirit can withstand any obstacles.
Yes the Italian lose the war but that didn't stop the frogman for completing their mission and some gave their life to serve the country
Yes the Panerai Company never make a watch before this but that didn't stop Guido Panerai from trying. The frogman's lives depend on these instrument.

No one can take away this part of the history from panerai. Not rolex, not straps addicts, not the current corporate monkey of OP and not even the countless ridiculous SE that have been release can put a dent on it.

For these watches, the instrument that tied to the wrist of the 2 frogman who bravely set out the dark open water to sink a submarine that operate by 30 plus crew(maybe more). Like David vs Goliath, a story of bravery and heroism.

Now do you still care if they are big, ugly, poorly finish and only comes with leather straps?  ::)

Regards
Tyler
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 01:12:34 PM by Godzillaz »

Offline fidoneo

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Re: The History of Panerai & Rolex : distant cousins ? brothers ?
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2012, 01:17:04 PM »
The connection between the two are more than meets the eye.

What does Rolex does really well?

1. Marketing
2. Association of a public event (sports, exploration, etc)
3. Image of a waterproof watch

The modern Panerai Company (Officine Panerai, I'll use short form OP from now) surprisingly have more of the same list

1. Marketing (it does it so well some ranked it as high as a fashion brand now)
2. Association with public figure, mostly celebrity (I remember seeing photo Disney's CEO wore a luminor to the board meeting) 
3. Image of a WW2 watch


What's the different?

Oh yes. OP has use numerous 3rd party movement, just something on top of my head Zenith, Minerva, Omega, Rolex, Angelus, ETA, Valjoux, JLC and Piaget. There might be more as am don't think I remember it all.

Funny thing is Rolex was never taken seriously until the early 80s. When the Hongkie goreng it up. Ask someone who is above 65 years old what is the best brand back in the 50s, 60s or 70s almost no one will say Rolex. What you'll hear is Omega or Titoni. On an more up scale level maybe you'll hear the name Vacheron or Cartier, yup that's right Patek wasn't even there yet.

If we talk about the legendary robustness of Rolex watch, I'm afraid it only limit to the Sea-Dweller and Explorer 1. Not Sub cos up until the mid 60s Rolex still can't keep the Sub water tight pass 60m. Real diver use omega, blancpain or Doxa. It's the Sea-Dweller that show great improvement in water resistancy and Rolex had help, COMEX.

The way Panerai went about it is different. The old Panerai is predominantly an instrument manufacturer and supplier. The Italian Navy was one of their client and when the Navy request for a diving watch (an instrument back in the days). Panerai went to Rolex for the reason I believe

1. Panerai was selling Rolex watches in the little Firenze store.
2. Rolex was honking the waterproof ability of its watch so Panerai think "ok why not?"
3. Why risk screwing things up ourselves if there a best out in the market and is available for purchase.

The 1st batch of watches given to Panerai from Rolex did not pass the Navy's test. Water tideness was an issue and Rolex haven't solve it. 2 more batch were deliver over a period of 2 year. They were better but the issue still remain. What Guido Panerai (the man that helm panerai at the time) did on its own was they went into R&D to solve those issues. The famous crown guard is one. The super bright luminescence subtance Radiomir and Luminor is another.

Improvement also being make by experimenting with different case but I believe those are not sole Panerai effort.

The panerai watches were being put into real use way before any submariner since the Sub only enter into the market around 1953 (long way from WW2).

Yes they were not perfect but these Italians have balls and they made it, both the frogman and Guido Panerai show human spirit can withstand any obstacles.
Yes the Italian lose the war but that didn't stop the frogman for completing their mission and some gave their life to serve the country
Yes the Panerai Company never make a watch before this but that didn't stop Guido Panerai from trying. The frogman's lives depend on these instrument.

No one can take away this part of the history from panerai. Not rolex, not straps addicts, not the current corporate monkey of OP and not even the countless ridiculous SE that have been release can put a dent on it.

For these watches, the instrument that tied to the wrist of the 2 frogman who bravely set out the dark open water to sink a submarine that operate by 30 plus crew(maybe more). Like David vs Goliath, a story of bravery and heroism.

Now do you still care if they are big, ugly, poorly finish and only comes with leather straps?  ::)

Regards
Tyler


Well said Tyler :) just that some people won't appreciate what we are and what we have passion
for..



Stan
Sig sauer p2022 - luminor Marina
Sig Sauer p229 - Radiomir Black seal

A combination of handguns with timepieces

Offline Godzillaz

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Re: The History of Panerai & Rolex : distant cousins ? brothers ?
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2012, 01:29:28 PM »
Bro, I guess people have problem with our "ugly" wife.  :Laughing_on_floor:

Why? beats me  ???

Regards
Tyler


Well said Tyler :) just that some people won't appreciate what we are and what we have passion
for..

Stan

Offline ck77

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Re: The History of Panerai & Rolex : distant cousins ? brothers ?
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2012, 01:35:36 PM »
Thanks Tyler for giving me a great history lesson  :thumbsup:

Offline kentkoh79

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Re: The History of Panerai & Rolex : distant cousins ? brothers ?
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2012, 01:38:07 PM »
Bro Tyler,

I dun think so our wife is "ugly" .... Maybe our wife is so beautiful and too sexy .... Until some of them cannot tahan and start calling her fashion watch ! ..... Ha...

Offline Godzillaz

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Re: The History of Panerai & Rolex : distant cousins ? brothers ?
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2012, 01:54:43 PM »
Now you are hitting on my wife. I better hide her from you.  ;D

Regard
Tyler

Bro Tyler,

I dun think so our wife is "ugly" .... Maybe our wife is so beautiful and too sexy .... Until some of them cannot tahan and start calling her fashion watch ! ..... Ha...

Offline hanz079

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Re: The History of Panerai & Rolex : distant cousins ? brothers ?
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2012, 02:10:54 PM »
Tyler, 1st of all... Thank you for taking the time to type out a really detailed post.
I enjoyed reading it and I did learn a thing or two there.
Wouldn't it be better if all replies were of the same standard other than the usual sarcasm filled replies that we see?
Terrenceterrence "seriously, i think buying a watch for it's secondhand value is like getting married and thinking about divorce at the back of your mind."


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Offline TheHobbit

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Re: The History of Panerai & Rolex : distant cousins ? brothers ?
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2012, 02:50:43 PM »
Tyler,

Nice post about the history. At least Panerai effort was better than the British with Longines at their attempt to make a water resistant watch.

Offline Godzillaz

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Re: The History of Panerai & Rolex : distant cousins ? brothers ?
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2012, 02:58:12 PM »
I hope for that too but we're not in a perfect world, are we?

I just have to take the lemon and make lemonade.

Thanks for the kind words. I suspect I make many mistake in the post. Some of the numbers are far from being exact but not deviate to the extend for the story to be false. Feel free to correct me if you found any error.  :)

Regards
Tyler

Tyler, 1st of all... Thank you for taking the time to type out a really detailed post.
I enjoyed reading it and I did learn a thing or two there.
Wouldn't it be better if all replies were of the same standard other than the usual sarcasm filled replies that we see?

Offline fidoneo

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Re: The History of Panerai & Rolex : distant cousins ? brothers ?
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2012, 03:59:55 PM »
Tyler,

Nice post about the history. At least Panerai effort was better than the British with Longines at their attempt to make a water resistant watch.

 :thumbsup:
Sig sauer p2022 - luminor Marina
Sig Sauer p229 - Radiomir Black seal

A combination of handguns with timepieces

Offline dpkong

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Re: The History of Panerai & Rolex : distant cousins ? brothers ?
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2012, 07:51:54 PM »
The connection between the two are more than meets the eye.

What does Rolex does really well?

1. Marketing
2. Association of a public event (sports, exploration, etc)
3. Image of a waterproof watch

The modern Panerai Company (Officine Panerai, I'll use short form OP from now) surprisingly have more of the same list

1. Marketing (it does it so well some ranked it as high as a fashion brand now)
2. Association with public figure, mostly celebrity (I remember seeing photo Disney's CEO wore a luminor to the board meeting) 
3. Image of a WW2 watch


What's the different?

Oh yes. OP has use numerous 3rd party movement, just something on top of my head Zenith, Minerva, Omega, Rolex, Angelus, ETA, Valjoux, JLC and Piaget. There might be more as am don't think I remember it all.

Funny thing is Rolex was never taken seriously until the early 80s. When the Hongkie goreng it up. Ask someone who is above 65 years old what is the best brand back in the 50s, 60s or 70s almost no one will say Rolex. What you'll hear is Omega or Titoni. On an more up scale level maybe you'll hear the name Vacheron or Cartier, yup that's right Patek wasn't even there yet.

If we talk about the legendary robustness of Rolex watch, I'm afraid it only limit to the Sea-Dweller and Explorer 1. Not Sub cos up until the mid 60s Rolex still can't keep the Sub water tight pass 60m. Real diver use omega, blancpain or Doxa. It's the Sea-Dweller that show great improvement in water resistancy and Rolex had help, COMEX.

The way Panerai went about it is different. The old Panerai is predominantly an instrument manufacturer and supplier. The Italian Navy was one of their client and when the Navy request for a diving watch (an instrument back in the days). Panerai went to Rolex for the reason I believe

1. Panerai was selling Rolex watches in the little Firenze store.
2. Rolex was honking the waterproof ability of its watch so Panerai think "ok why not?"
3. Why risk screwing things up ourselves if there a best out in the market and is available for purchase.

The 1st batch of watches given to Panerai from Rolex did not pass the Navy's test. Water tideness was an issue and Rolex haven't solve it. 2 more batch were deliver over a period of 2 year. They were better but the issue still remain. What Guido Panerai (the man that helm panerai at the time) did on its own was they went into R&D to solve those issues. The famous crown guard is one. The super bright luminescence subtance Radiomir and Luminor is another.

Improvement also being make by experimenting with different case but I believe those are not sole Panerai effort.

The panerai watches were being put into real use way before any submariner since the Sub only enter into the market around 1953 (long way from WW2).

Yes they were not perfect but these Italians have balls and they made it, both the frogman and Guido Panerai show human spirit can withstand any obstacles.
Yes the Italian lose the war but that didn't stop the frogman for completing their mission and some gave their life to serve the country
Yes the Panerai Company never make a watch before this but that didn't stop Guido Panerai from trying. The frogman's lives depend on these instrument.

No one can take away this part of the history from panerai. Not rolex, not straps addicts, not the current corporate monkey of OP and not even the countless ridiculous SE that have been release can put a dent on it.

For these watches, the instrument that tied to the wrist of the 2 frogman who bravely set out the dark open water to sink a submarine that operate by 30 plus crew(maybe more). Like David vs Goliath, a story of bravery and heroism.

Now do you still care if they are big, ugly, poorly finish and only comes with leather straps?  ::)

Regards
Tyler


This post should have come in another thread but not too late to read it here. An interesting read indeed. At least now I know where the strange looking crown guard came from...

Offline pexus

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Re: The History of Panerai & Rolex : distant cousins ? brothers ?
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2012, 09:19:05 PM »

 :thumbsup: nicely put, Tyler...

ok...no offense....but I heard this joke before....
Since these watches do not have a seconds hands....the divers wont be setting them in synchrony, like what we usually see in movies?  ;D
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 09:35:16 PM by pexus »
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Offline bryankwc

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Re: The History of Panerai & Rolex : distant cousins ? brothers ?
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2012, 10:10:25 PM »
Wow...I learn something new almost every time I logon to MWF.
Thanks, Tyler - for the most interesting history lesson.  :Cheers:
Maybe someone can start a thread on watches that help win a war?
Or in the case of Japan & Germany, watches that helped their countries nearly win the war?  ;D
Take care, Ciao!  :thumbsup:
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 10:12:09 PM by bryankwc »
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Offline Godzillaz

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Re: The History of Panerai & Rolex : distant cousins ? brothers ?
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2012, 07:32:23 AM »
Actually the watch was primarily use for measuring bottom time(how much oxygen is left). There will be only 2 divers at a time on a SLC ("pig") since the diver are traveling together so they don't to synchronize watches. As for the second hand I suspect they give a full wound at every point of the mission.

Regard
Tyler


 :thumbsup: nicely put, Tyler...

ok...no offense....but I heard this joke before....
Since these watches do not have a seconds hands....the divers wont be setting them in synchrony, like what we usually see in movies?  ;D