Author Topic: Tag Heuer Calibre 1887 - A Seiko chronograph in disguise?  (Read 12970 times)

Offline danny

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Tag Heuer Calibre 1887 - A Seiko chronograph in disguise?
« on: December 22, 2009, 11:00:41 PM »
Hi guys,
I'm sure most of you would have heard about Tag Heuer's slight hiccup with the launch of their new calibre 1887 in conjunction with their 150th anniversary celebration. Instead of being the 100% in-house designed movement that Tag initially claimed, the new calibre turned out to be an "evolution" (that's the term used by Tag Heuer's CEO Babin for spin control) of the decade old 6S37 chronograph calibre from Seiko.

While much electronic ink has been spilled on the many watch blogs and watch fora over Tag's stretching of the truth in their claim of 100% in house design, there's been not much discussion about what all this means for Seiko, the creator of the 6S37. IMHO it was a shrewd move by Seiko to sell the IP (intellectual property) to Tag since they have already moved on to bigger and better things such as the Spring Drive chronograph and the 8R28 automatic chronograph movement with 3 vertical clutches. I like to think that Seiko received a sweet deal for a dated chronograph design which would probably have been superseded by their spanking new calibres anyway.

Another not so obvious benefit, but one with a much larger and longer term impact, may be the endorsement of Seiko's chronograph technology by a major Swiss brand like Tag Heuer. This move by Tag to utilise Seiko's IP may bestow much needed recognition and prestige to the Japanese manufacture. Finally the international community of watch lovers (especially those residing outside of Asia) may again remember that it was Seiko who first developed the automatic chronograph technology, and finally wake up to see Seiko's technological prowess as a true 100% in house manufacture of fine mechanical timepieces.

Just like 1969 turned out to be the break out year for Seiko when they introduced the Quartz Astron and ushered in the quartz revolution, 40 years later, 2009 may also turn out to be the year that Seiko breaks through the marketing hype of the Swiss watch industry and takes its stand in the horological world as a true luxury watch brand.

What do you think? Do you now see Grand Seiko, Credor and Spring Drive in a different light?

Just my 2 cents.
 :Cheers:

Offline chrisyen

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Re: Tag Heuer Calibre 1887 - A Seiko chronograph in disguise?
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2009, 07:30:49 AM »
danny, a good topic to discuss!

tag overlook the power of internet... and they dont think collector nowadays are capable of identify the movement design from seiko!

tag can still say its in-house manufacture since they bought over the IP

i only dont understand why tag who is under LVMH together with zenith, why not getting his bro company to help....

too expensive to use el primero?  :Laughing_on_floor:


bout seiko.... i always said, seiko is the legend in watch industry... they serve all level !
every1 should salute seiko!

sad is seiko phoenix with such a good movement... its sales is poor!

despite higher end seiko is not profitable segment... seiko still continue develop it....

Offline ck77

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Re: Tag Heuer Calibre 1887 - A Seiko chronograph in disguise?
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2009, 07:42:43 AM »
It is a shame to TH, even the CEO have to clarifies the truth to the WIS community. Nothing wrong with using third party movement, even the big boys are using them, i.e. PP, VC, Rolex Daytona. But to claim that is 100% in-house movement then it is misleading and cheating  :thumbsdown:

There are too wide range of Seiko products, from Sekio 5 to GS. To compete with Swiss, IMHO, Seiko should concentrate on their higher end made in Japan models, do more marketing perhaps (this TH issue come in a right time, free publicity  :Dancing_banana:)

Offline sshark

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Re: Tag Heuer Calibre 1887 - A Seiko chronograph in disguise?
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2009, 11:02:11 AM »
It is a shame to TH, even the CEO have to clarifies the truth to the WIS community. Nothing wrong with using third party movement, even the big boys are using them, i.e. PP, VC, Rolex Daytona. But to claim that is 100% in-house movement then it is misleading and cheating  :thumbsdown:

I presume you mean "Rolex used Zenith movement back in early 2000". Daytona uses 4130 and 4130 is Rolex in-house movement. I not sure about PP and VC. I thought they used in-house movements for all their watches more so for PP.

/lim/

Offline ck77

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Re: Tag Heuer Calibre 1887 - A Seiko chronograph in disguise?
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2009, 11:36:53 AM »
I presume you mean "Rolex used Zenith movement back in early 2000". Daytona uses 4130 and 4130 is Rolex in-house movement. I not sure about PP and VC. I thought they used in-house movements for all their watches more so for PP.
/lim/

Ya, Rolex was using Zenith's El Primero then, prior to that was Valjoux 72 handwind (for Cosmographs). Some PP and VC chrono does housed Lemania based movement. Corret me if am wrong  :Cheers:
« Last Edit: December 23, 2009, 12:11:20 PM by ck77 »

Offline Gigi

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Re: Tag Heuer Calibre 1887 - A Seiko chronograph in disguise?
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2009, 11:57:21 AM »
hmm i wonder why TH so despreate in making hteir own movement.. until buy seiko punya movement...  :HammerHead: ???

Offline jeffbong

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Re: Tag Heuer Calibre 1887 - A Seiko chronograph in disguise?
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2009, 12:11:22 PM »
hmm i wonder why TH so despreate in making hteir own movement.. until buy seiko punya movement...  :HammerHead: ???

ETA stop supplying to third party brand in 2010....that's what i read ler...

Offline sshark

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Re: Tag Heuer Calibre 1887 - A Seiko chronograph in disguise?
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2009, 12:13:13 PM »
coming 2010 ETA not gonna supply customized calibres. and having its own calibre is the IN thing for big brand watch manufactures i.e. form of identity

Offline Fred

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Re: Tag Heuer Calibre 1887 - A Seiko chronograph in disguise?
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2009, 08:42:08 PM »
why ETA not going to sell their movements? It seems selling movements still profitable and the demand is always there too.

Offline danny

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Re: Tag Heuer Calibre 1887 - A Seiko chronograph in disguise?
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2009, 09:02:54 PM »

sad is seiko phoenix with such a good movement... its sales is poor!

despite higher end seiko is not profitable segment... seiko still continue develop it....
The Seiko Brightz Phoenix Chronograph with 8R28 will be high on my radar screen next year. The Phoenix chronograph has great looks with a great calibre, what more can a guy ask for.
Remember that when Rolex first introduced the Daytona, sales was also very poor till dealers had to give considerable discounts to move the watch.

If Seiko is not making money on their high end watches it means that the watches are under priced, which is always good news for us collectors.
 :Cheers:

Offline sshark

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Re: Tag Heuer Calibre 1887 - A Seiko chronograph in disguise?
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2009, 10:03:00 PM »
ETA continues to sell its movements but in unmodified form after 2009 i.e. starting 2010. So for those who used customized movements in their watches have to spend effort(=money) to modify the movements they receive from ETA. Hence, the cost of the watch will go up.

I not sure how companies like IWC which has long term business relationship with ETA will work out their differences.

Ho

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Re: Tag Heuer Calibre 1887 - A Seiko chronograph in disguise?
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2009, 12:41:09 AM »
The Seiko Brightz Phoenix Chronograph with 8R28 will be high on my radar screen next year. The Phoenix chronograph has great looks with a great calibre, what more can a guy ask for.
Remember that when Rolex first introduced the Daytona, sales was also very poor till dealers had to give considerable discounts to move the watch.

If Seiko is not making money on their high end watches it means that the watches are under priced, which is always good news for us collectors.
 :Cheers:
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May I know what is the difference between 8R28 automatic and 6S28 automatic??

Offline danny

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Re: Tag Heuer Calibre 1887 - A Seiko chronograph in disguise?
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2009, 06:56:46 AM »

May I know what is the difference between 8R28 automatic and 6S28 automatic??
That's a great question. I've wondered the same a few times but despite the wide spread use of the internet as a very effective marketing tool by the Swiss brands, the amount of information available on these 2 Seiko calibres is really minuscule. That pretty much sums up the problem with Seiko, their lack of PR competency in the international arena.

Whatever little information that I managed to dig up in these 2 movements are summarised below:

6S28 - Some say that this is a more economical version of the 6S37 design which was supposedly sold to Tag Heuer.
34 Jewels
28,800bph
Column wheel with vertical clutch system
Accuracy: -15-~+ 25sec per day
Power Reserve: 50 hours
Sub dial configuration: 6-9-12

8R28 - Latest automatic chronograph from Seiko launched in 2008
34 Jewels
28,800bph
Column wheel with vertical clutch system
Accuracy: -15-~+ 25sec per day
Power Reserve: >45 hours
Sub dial configuration: 3-6-9
Remarks: The 8R28 incorporates a major innovation in automatic chronograph design, a single piece 3 pointed hammer which is used to instantly reset all 3 chronograph hands in unison. It also features 3 vertical clutches, one each for the second, minute and hour hands respectively. Conventional chronographs have only 1 vertical clutch, for the second hand only.

Last but not least, for comparisons sake:
6S37
40 Jewels
28,800bph
Power reserve indication
Column wheel with vertical clutch system
Accuracy: -10-~+ 15sec per day
Power Reserve: 50 hours
Sub dial configuration: 6-9-12 with PR indicator at 3 o'clock

Offline ck77

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Re: Tag Heuer Calibre 1887 - A Seiko chronograph in disguise?
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2009, 07:15:12 AM »
Just curious, can the movement be adjusted within COSC spec?

Offline chrisyen

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Re: Tag Heuer Calibre 1887 - A Seiko chronograph in disguise?
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2009, 07:40:17 AM »
Just curious, can the movement be adjusted within COSC spec?

why not? but seiko is not bother about the cosc.... (they achieved the cosc how many yrs ago? )
if it can be adjusted to cosc, will tag buy their movement?

cosc is a marketing tool to most of the watch collectors!
cosc only test the movement before it assemble...
how many finely finished watch is cosc?

sending a watch movement from japan to swiss to do the test and get a cert...
then back to japan to be assembled into a watch and then distribute to the world....

how to assure the accuracy after that even with a cert?
in which position of the watch u can assure the accuracy?
in what temperature the watch is running perfect? in which part of the world the watch running most accurately...


Offline lilpronaz

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Re: Tag Heuer Calibre 1887 - A Seiko chronograph in disguise?
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2009, 08:53:04 AM »
ETA continues to sell its movements but in unmodified form after 2009 i.e. starting 2010. So for those who used customized movements in their watches have to spend effort(=money) to modify the movements they receive from ETA. Hence, the cost of the watch will go up.

I not sure how companies like IWC which has long term business relationship with ETA will work out their differences.

For the record, ETA will continue to supply assembled movements according to the manufacturers' specifications. This link will clear the air.

http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=tree&goto=4719974&rid=80208

Offline sshark

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Re: Tag Heuer Calibre 1887 - A Seiko chronograph in disguise?
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2009, 09:32:15 AM »
The link has provided answer for IWC. Still, what is not clear is what will happen to others who want to make a watch that is not following "IWC" specifications and had modifications of their own?

ETA continues to sell its movements but in unmodified form after 2009 i.e. starting 2010. So for those who used customized movements in their watches have to spend effort(=money) to modify the movements they receive from ETA. Hence, the cost of the watch will go up.

I not sure how companies like IWC which has long term business relationship with ETA will work out their differences.

For the record, ETA will continue to supply assembled movements according to the manufacturers' specifications. This link will clear the air.

http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=tree&goto=4719974&rid=80208

Offline chrisyen

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Re: Tag Heuer Calibre 1887 - A Seiko chronograph in disguise?
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2009, 09:36:20 AM »
ETA continues to sell its movements but in unmodified form after 2009 i.e. starting 2010. So for those who used customized movements in their watches have to spend effort(=money) to modify the movements they receive from ETA. Hence, the cost of the watch will go up.

I not sure how companies like IWC which has long term business relationship with ETA will work out their differences.

For the record, ETA will continue to supply assembled movements according to the manufacturers' specifications. This link will clear the air.

http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=tree&goto=4719974&rid=80208

yes. from day 1 ETA do not say they stop supply movement to other company beside swatch...
but they said they stop supply ebauche grade to ppl...
they wanted to sell with level of add on / finishing / upgraded parts / engraving... as per customer wanted.... then customer are not allow to modify it...
with that,
1. fake cant use it for fake watches
2. eta make all $$$
3. etc
2.

Offline lilpronaz

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Re: Tag Heuer Calibre 1887 - A Seiko chronograph in disguise?
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2009, 12:11:27 PM »
The link has provided answer for IWC. Still, what is not clear is what will happen to others who want to make a watch that is not following "IWC" specifications and had modifications of their own?


ETA, for now, will only supply fully assembled movements to non-Swatch group manufacturers.

This is the latest interview with Nicholas G Hayek where he intends to cut supplies of ETA movements to non-Swatch group companies once and for all. The reasoning is to "see competitors put in place their own industrial units for components".

Richemont, on the other hand, have the expertise to produce movements for all their brands. It's just a matter of investing in a factory to mass produce movements for all the sister brands.

I do not know where this will lead as the other smaller manufacturers will, for sure, put up a fight.

http://www.swisster.ch/swatch-end-parts-sales-rivals.html

Offline HusH

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Re: Tag Heuer Calibre 1887 - A Seiko chronograph in disguise?
« Reply #19 on: December 25, 2009, 06:24:36 AM »
Been following the controversy. Here's something to clarify the issue:
 
http://www.calibre11.com/calibre-1887-update/#more-1279

Offline sshark

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Re: Tag Heuer Calibre 1887 - A Seiko chronograph in disguise?
« Reply #20 on: December 25, 2009, 11:08:49 AM »
That explains TagH stand point on its in-house design and manufacturing statement. TQ

Offline ck77

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Re: Tag Heuer Calibre 1887 - A Seiko chronograph in disguise?
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2010, 07:20:12 AM »
Here is the much anticipating and controvesial of Calibre 1887. Noticed there is no rotor, how does it wind the spring then?

http://www.calibre11.com/carrera-calibre-1887-review/

Offline danny

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Re: Tag Heuer Calibre 1887 - A Seiko chronograph in disguise?
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2010, 03:00:40 PM »
Hi CK,
The 6S37 is an automatic chronograph movement. Hence the Calibre 1887 is also an auto since it's "derived" from Seiko's IP. If you look closely at the last picture in the article, you'll notice that the rotor is there. It's "skeletonised".

 :Cheers:

Offline ck77

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Re: Tag Heuer Calibre 1887 - A Seiko chronograph in disguise?
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2010, 03:56:29 PM »
Here is the movement review of the much debatable caliber 1887
http://www.calibre11.com/watchmaker-review-calibre-1887/