Author Topic: Homage ??? A close thin line  (Read 11880 times)

Offline mnazri.tan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 824
  • Time As It Is
    • Time As It Is.....
Homage ??? A close thin line
« on: July 26, 2010, 01:59:47 PM »
For weeks i have been pondering on this issue, numerous discussions on that and finally I like to have that discussion here. I am not sure whether this has been posted or not, too many topic to look through in this forum...
Million dollar question. Homages watches. Acceptable or not.

Accusation
Homage watches, despite its clever interpretation of what they are doing, in the root share similar principality as stealing. I doubt any of the homage watch maker pay royalty for the design they copied. Under the pretext, we brand this watch as our own, they get away and being accepted as an original watch where else their cousin, the replica watch take the heat and being label as pure fake and unacceptable. However due to supply and demand, needless to say the industry for both is quite a big one.

Now, i understand the feeling of those who purchase the original watches. Look at as example the rolex submariner owner and the Panerai watches. Two homage one under well known brand Invicta, replicating the rolex submariner and one private small label known as Marina Militare. The idea for those who purchase the original piece is to pay a huge amount of money to enjoy high quality products with a level of exclusivity. They work hard in life to earn it, but being let down seeing their manager who they pay a small amount of money to work with them, wearing an identical watch, at least physically.
That is pain. Even for me who own several homage (which is why now I am judging the morality aspect of owning a homage). Bottom line, an infringement of IP is an infringement of IP. People get away with it with clever definition but are we as user enabling this well organized "crime" in way where we see it as acceptable. How about the billion dollar losses of the original watch maker?

Defenses
a) Once expired, manufacturer has no right to disallowed others replicating their invention
b) The original piece mostly are simply ridiculously expensive. The user of homage watches consist of those who love watches, appreciate the art of watch making but couldn't afford to get the original one in even in gazzilion years of lifetime. Is it fair to deny their enjoyment in owning a homage watch. ?
c) The homage never claim what they dont. The homage watches clearly specify the specification of the watch and the brand of it. They dont pretend
d) The billion dollar losses claimed is not real. It is base on the potential that the owner of homage watches, without the homage watchmaker would spend money on the real manufacturer. But it may not be. They buy the homage because they cant afford the real one. If there is no homage watches, they still cant afford it. True, there is some rich people who can afford to buy the original, but if they in the first place being calculative and decide to buy homage, even without homage they would still be calculative asshole and will not buy from real manufacturer. So there is no real losses.
e) It is not matter of between paying 100 dollar or 200 dollar, often it is between paying a 100 dollar or 20,000 dollar. The math is simple
f) A replica mostly in a poor quality, but not entirely true for homage. Often homage watches in a very good quality, though may not be agreed by some, there has been argument for example the Invicta 9937 match the quality of rolex submariner it replicating. I am sure a lot will either agree or disagree. I dont own any of both, so i cant be sure. But I am sure i have read some very satisfied review on the 9937 even when comparing with Rolex. Base on that review, often they question the justification of buying a Rolex. Simply on the brand ?

Summary
I can not summarize this, part of me feel that it is right to get a homage, part of me feel it is a terrible crime and I am enabling it.What make it worst the law enabling it, the society enabling it. So how do we draw the line ? Would it be acceptable to homage ?
Looking forward to views from all of you .

mnazri.tan
http://zhenendeavor.blogspot.com/
« Last Edit: July 26, 2010, 03:17:40 PM by mnazri.tan »

Offline peanut

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 325
Re: Homage ??? A close thin line
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2010, 02:58:46 PM »
I don't have this dilemma ... I never subscribe to buying replica nor homage watches.  If I want one, it better be the original.  Otherwise, I would rather not having it.  At the same time, I would not be bothered if others are having replica or homage watches are substantially cheaper price because regardless of how close they are, they are still not the real thing.

I used to think that one way to prevent this is to buy less popular watches (than Rolex, Omega, etc.).  Little did I know that there are tons of replica watches for Blancpain, AP, Alain Silberstein and Glashutte too!   :mooning:

Offline pexus

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 734
Re: Homage ??? A close thin line
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2010, 03:29:05 PM »
good topic for me to learn more.

Excuse my ignorance, but are dial designs patented? (font of markers, shape of hands, colour combination, etc).  `Technical' stuffs (lume in a Ball, etc) probably yes but design related matters?
« Last Edit: July 26, 2010, 03:34:09 PM by pexus »
`Learning to appreciate my watch as a tool, and not some fancy branded jewelry'

Offline chrisyen

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5959
Re: Homage ??? A close thin line
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2010, 07:24:34 PM »
i explain this before and i stand for it

homage should not have commercial element!

Offline takashi78

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4745
Re: Homage ??? A close thin line
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2010, 07:58:16 PM »
Agreed, for me there should not be any logo or brand name on it. Thats how i feel.

Offline adrian

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 193
Re: Homage ??? A close thin line
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2010, 09:29:51 PM »
Bruder,

Why so stressful??  ;D
Collecting watches should be enjoyable and shouldn't be so stressful.  :Dancing_banana:
Buy what appeals to you, what has meaning to you, what makes you smile when the watch is on your wrist and don't think too much.
Borrowing the words of Bobby Bolivia, "A man don't pick the watch. Mmm-mm. Watches pick the man. It's a mystical bond between man and watch.;D

I for one don't care much if it's a swiss movt or a japanese movt or a chinese movt or a uganda movement or a sapphire crystal or a mineral or a auto or a quartz or a what what. Why make it so complicated? And I certainly don't care if people agree on my choice or not. If the watch appeals to me and I don't have to sell one of my kids to get it, then.... KACHING!

In a way maybe that's not good as I've developed Compulsive Watch Buying Disorder and have added 6 watches to my collection this month alone and I'm fast approaching 60 in total with a few more incoming (again, my last ones for the year).  :angel:  But I certainly do enjoy it. :laugh:

The point is it should be enjoyable and shouldn't be so complicated in owning a watch. Homage or not. :P  Frankly speaking perhaps it's just us Asians who have this inferior complex in owning a homage? On foreign forums, I see quite a number of Pam owners with a Davidsen, JOA, RXW or other MM homage in their collection and are proud to post it up.

Personally I don't have a problem with homage as long as the wearer don't try to pass it off as what it's not. That's fake. If you can't afford a PAM, don't find it necessary to buy a fake with the PAM logo and wear it as a genuine PAM. :HammerHead:  Get a homage and wear it as a homage.

I don't have a problem with people who wear a Orient Sub, a Invicta Sub, a Dievas Vintage or a Astroavia Pilot on their wrist but I do have a problem with people who wear a fake Rolex and try to pass it off as a genuine one. That's where I draw the line.

On your point about a homage's quality as compared to a Rolex or a PAM, I have to point out that personally to me it's not just about quality. It's also about brand history, heritage and status. Some might claim that an Invicta is the same quality as a Rolex (btw, I disagree) but an Invicta does not have the same history, heritage and status of a Rolex. And that's why I would pay more for a Rolex or a PAM over a homage.

Now if one can't afford to pay 5 figures for a PAM, get a homage but please for the love of watchmakers, don't get a 2K fake and try to pass it off as a 5 figure PAM.  :P

Cheers mate and continue to enjoy collecting watches.  :Cheers:

Offline G.MAC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1890
Re: Homage ??? A close thin line
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2010, 09:33:40 PM »
good topic for me to learn more.

Excuse my ignorance, but are dial designs patented? (font of markers, shape of hands, colour combination, etc).  `Technical' stuffs (lume in a Ball, etc) probably yes but design related matters?


dial designs are protected under a sub-limb of copyright known as design right..as long as it has aesthetic value( it is visually appealing) it can be protected. a 'homage' is a tribute or a sign of respect to the original. by making it for commercial purposes this defeats the whole purpose of respect towards the original doesnt it?
Your ONLY job in this world is to make sure that you are happy

Offline David_cheong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1772
Re: Homage ??? A close thin line
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2010, 06:21:47 AM »
Adrian - well said.

" I do have a problem with people who wear a fake Rolex and try to pass it off as a genuine one."

I like the above line best. 100% agreed.

dc
I am almost a recovered watchaholic, but last checked shows only 70% recovered. How?

Offline pexus

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 734
Re: Homage ??? A close thin line
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2010, 08:14:50 AM »
good topic for me to learn more.

Excuse my ignorance, but are dial designs patented? (font of markers, shape of hands, colour combination, etc).  `Technical' stuffs (lume in a Ball, etc) probably yes but design related matters?


dial designs are protected under a sub-limb of copyright known as design right..as long as it has aesthetic value( it is visually appealing) it can be protected. a 'homage' is a tribute or a sign of respect to the original. by making it for commercial purposes this defeats the whole purpose of respect towards the original doesnt it?

thanks buddy for the explanation.  coming from RD world which focus on quantification and technical issues, its interesting to know dial design can be given copy right


`Learning to appreciate my watch as a tool, and not some fancy branded jewelry'

Offline takashi78

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4745
Re: Homage ??? A close thin line
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2010, 09:19:27 AM »
What is "RD"?

Offline steveting

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 149
Re: Homage ??? A close thin line
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2010, 09:54:52 AM »
do those company allowed these company to steal the original design from them??

Offline Samajaya168

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 273
  • ^_^
Re: Homage ??? A close thin line
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2010, 09:57:16 AM »
eventho i dont hav homage, but i did hav a replica many years ago b4 i really appreciate what is art & techs in d watch therefore i was shy n pai-se to tell people tat its a fake tat im wearing but it did propels me 2 own d real thing which i did and all in my lines now r all genuine.

put it this way, if ur mind n heart can bare wif it and willingly 2 lie 2 others while wearing it, SO BE IT... no offence but tat lying n denying yourself

hope i did not offended any1  :Cheers:
AP - 15710
ROLEX - 116710
FM - GPG 9900
PANERAI - PAM 00000
CHOPARD - 168457-3005
ZENITH - 03.2430.3000/21.C738
SINN - Art-Nr. 1020.040
TISSOT - T066.427.17.047.00
OMEGA - 1513.30.00 (TRADED)
IWC -  IW500703 (TRADED)

Offline kltime

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 310
Re: Homage ??? A close thin line
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2010, 01:26:08 PM »

The point is it should be enjoyable and shouldn't be so complicated in owning a watch. Homage or not.

Personally I don't have a problem with homage as long as the wearer don't try to pass it off as what it's not.

I don't have a problem with people who wear a Orient Sub, a Invicta Sub, a Dievas Vintage or a Astroavia Pilot on their wrist but I do have a problem with people who wear a fake Rolex and try to pass it off as a genuine one. That's where I draw the line.

Now if one can't afford to pay 5 figures for a PAM, get a homage but please for the love of watchmakers, don't get a 2K fake and try to pass it off as a 5 figure PAM.  :P


 :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Well said. Anyway, what defines a "homage"?. If we take the Rolex sub as the one and only original-then what about the other legitimate brands that makes diver watches with Rolex sub like features? This includes Omega/Orient etc...

Offline TheHobbit

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3328
Re: Homage ??? A close thin line
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2010, 03:28:46 PM »
Interesting discussion on homage watches. I think there is a need to define homage. I take homage as a watch produced to allow people to enjoy what is perhaps impossible to get at the present, because the watch is no longer in production or very expensive to get. Most important is that it does not pass off as an original.

Offline duniajam

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 452
    • Dunia Jam
Re: Homage ??? A close thin line
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2010, 05:29:04 PM »
adrian... :thumbsup: Well said.

Me too bro. I don't have problem about homage watch. I'm also don't have problem towards the people who buy a fake. But just like you said... don't try to make people assume that is a genuine watch. Some people doing it & hoping others will salute with the 5 figure watch on their hand  :Mad: & not truthful in their talk & they will get angry so easily when get distracted or offended about their watch. Got some experience before with this kind of people. Haha...  :laugh:


Offline kltime

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 310
Re: Homage ??? A close thin line
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2010, 07:40:40 AM »

IMHO homage watches are fine but fakes are not.

All of us are in this forum bcos we of our common hobby ( or obsession as better half calls it ;D ) . For personal reasons be it affordability/cost to value perception/personal taste, some of us buy so called "homages".  Some buy "originals".

So what? Thats a personal matter and you buy what appeals to u...What we have in common is our appreciation of the small ticking machine on our wrists. Lets focus n remember that!!
 

Offline jacky8888

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 981
  • More than meets the eye
Re: Homage ??? A close thin line
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2010, 08:58:07 AM »
Agree with kltime. Homage or originals as long as u like it then buy lor. In fact I hav one getat. I am pretty happy with it and I deliberately customize it so that it doesn't clashes with the original. Definitely not replica. Replica is stealing. It's a crime.
Just my 3 cents. 
Jacky Wong

Offline ckcspice

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 106
Re: Homage ??? A close thin line
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2010, 11:42:00 AM »
well said....homage or fake is not the point...the main point is NOT 2 try 2 pass the watch off as something it is not....fake is fake, homage is homage...once u try 2 deceive others with ur RM2k ROLEKS, that is crossing the line ord....

Bruder,

Why so stressful??  ;D
Collecting watches should be enjoyable and shouldn't be so stressful.  :Dancing_banana:
Buy what appeals to you, what has meaning to you, what makes you smile when the watch is on your wrist and don't think too much.
Borrowing the words of Bobby Bolivia, "A man don't pick the watch. Mmm-mm. Watches pick the man. It's a mystical bond between man and watch.;D

I for one don't care much if it's a swiss movt or a japanese movt or a chinese movt or a uganda movement or a sapphire crystal or a mineral or a auto or a quartz or a what what. Why make it so complicated? And I certainly don't care if people agree on my choice or not. If the watch appeals to me and I don't have to sell one of my kids to get it, then.... KACHING!

In a way maybe that's not good as I've developed Compulsive Watch Buying Disorder and have added 6 watches to my collection this month alone and I'm fast approaching 60 in total with a few more incoming (again, my last ones for the year).  :angel:  But I certainly do enjoy it. :laugh:

The point is it should be enjoyable and shouldn't be so complicated in owning a watch. Homage or not. :P  Frankly speaking perhaps it's just us Asians who have this inferior complex in owning a homage? On foreign forums, I see quite a number of Pam owners with a Davidsen, JOA, RXW or other MM homage in their collection and are proud to post it up.

Personally I don't have a problem with homage as long as the wearer don't try to pass it off as what it's not. That's fake. If you can't afford a PAM, don't find it necessary to buy a fake with the PAM logo and wear it as a genuine PAM. :HammerHead:  Get a homage and wear it as a homage.

I don't have a problem with people who wear a Orient Sub, a Invicta Sub, a Dievas Vintage or a Astroavia Pilot on their wrist but I do have a problem with people who wear a fake Rolex and try to pass it off as a genuine one. That's where I draw the line.

On your point about a homage's quality as compared to a Rolex or a PAM, I have to point out that personally to me it's not just about quality. It's also about brand history, heritage and status. Some might claim that an Invicta is the same quality as a Rolex (btw, I disagree) but an Invicta does not have the same history, heritage and status of a Rolex. And that's why I would pay more for a Rolex or a PAM over a homage.

Now if one can't afford to pay 5 figures for a PAM, get a homage but please for the love of watchmakers, don't get a 2K fake and try to pass it off as a 5 figure PAM.  :P

Cheers mate and continue to enjoy collecting watches.  :Cheers:

Offline ttfjon

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 57
Re: Homage ??? A close thin line
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2010, 12:19:07 PM »
Long, varied and healthy discussions.

For me, as long as the do not use other people's brand and pass them off as genuine, it is ok for me.  After all, we know upfront that it is a homage.


Offline chrisyen

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5959
Re: Homage ??? A close thin line
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2010, 01:30:20 PM »
Personally I got no issue bout who likes to buy homage n who against homage...
To me the spirit of homage is paying tribute n appreciate some kind of design
so no commercial value should b in it...

those are My personal view, How about legal point of view?
Some 1 hv a ip/design patent right n u said u wanna homage then u copy?

U all can choose not to obey the law
but pls do not bring trouble to Mwf! 

Offline adrian

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 193
Re: Homage ??? A close thin line
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2010, 02:13:34 PM »
Personally I got no issue bout who likes to buy homage n who against homage...
To me the spirit of homage is paying tribute n appreciate some kind of design
so no commercial value should b in it...

those are My personal view, How about legal point of view?
Some 1 hv a ip/design patent right n u said u wanna homage then u copy?

U all can choose not to obey the law
but pls do not bring trouble to Mwf! 


Sorry but I don't quite get u on the no commercial value part. What u're saying is that its ok to build a homage for keeps but not if it's made for sale?

No worries on the trouble part. Discussion is ok (reviews, posting photos, etc) but not selling. The normal route for lawsuits regarding websites is to give notice first to the domain owner for removal of content.

Offline chrisyen

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5959
Re: Homage ??? A close thin line
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2010, 02:21:08 PM »
Sorry but I don't quite get u on the no commercial value part. What u're saying is that its ok to build a homage for keeps but not if it's made for sale?

No worries on the trouble part. Discussion is ok (reviews, posting photos, etc) but not selling. The normal route for lawsuits regarding websites is to give notice first to the domain owner for removal of content.

yes. 

Offline G.MAC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1890
Re: Homage ??? A close thin line
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2010, 02:58:25 PM »
the whole legal issue about homages is where a seller is trying to reap profit from something which does not belong to them. An IP right is a proprietary right. Breaching it is analogous to an outsider doing business in your shop without paying rent and acting like the shop is his. By paying royalty to the original manufacturer it is like paying rent to you. the whole issue is that the original manufacturer comes out with the particular idea that is so appealing to the consumer so much so that they should be well commensurated for their efforts. can you imagine a submariner? that classic look is what that is protected. when you look at a sub you will know it is a sub and not other brands or models. thats why homages and replicas face a lot of fire. it is because it is not the original but it tries to make you think it is the original. brands dont matter so much because from 5-10 metres away, people cannot see the brand' marina militare' or panerai. the first impression is that it is a panerai. that is just my opinion and say on the matter at hand.
Your ONLY job in this world is to make sure that you are happy

Offline kltime

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 310
Re: Homage ??? A close thin line
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2010, 03:02:24 PM »
Sorry to slightly divert...was reading the Invicta topic in one of the other threads. Since so many of their watches are apparently homages,just wondering whether they are being sued by some of the big brands?

Offline ex001

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 148
Re: Homage ??? A close thin line
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2010, 03:33:44 PM »
homage watches are for those who just love the outer look of the watch and dont
really care about the movement, history, innovation, or originality.