Author Topic: Ramblings Of A Seiko Fan  (Read 19204 times)

Offline Watchnewby

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Ramblings Of A Seiko Fan
« on: September 06, 2011, 02:20:20 PM »
Opinion: Seiko vs. Swiss

“Seiko is cheap watch. Swiss is expensive watch”. Is that so?

“Swiss watch is long lasting, Seiko watch easily spoilt.

IMHO, all these are rhetoric; ie not saying Swiss-made is good but in my humblest opinion Seiko is better. The modern technological watch invention’s history has proven Seiko’s prowess. Swiss watch is definitely an elitist watch (as the general perception goes but not all Swiss made watch are such), but the advancement in its technology is not new, only modified or improved from its design, basic material and power reserve). Swiss names is available everywhere in the market, but now, Seiko belongs to Haute Horlogerie watch maker category (where as only a handful Swiss watch maker is in the same category). Seiko’s superior technology has always been marginalized by strong proposition of Swiss, but not anymore!

A wee bit of history on Switzerland (Swiss) – the World Horology Center
The history of watch making started around the year 1700. The basic technology of watch making (or clock-making) originated from Switzerland and countries around it like France, German dan Italy. Not to forget, England too. Now most watch-making companies concentrated at Geneva, Le Locle, Schaffhausen, Minerva and Valley de Joux. Many French brand like Piaget, Jaeger-LeCoutre, dan Cartier also shifted their operations to Switzerland. Even Italian brands like Bvlgari dan Panerai also doing the same. Only a handful watch-making pioneer, for example, A. Lange & Sohne, Glashutte Original, dan Muhle Glashutte based at Glashutte town remains in their country of origin, ie German..

Seiko - awed by Swiss manufacturer
The Seiko brand of wrist watches was first used and exist in the market around the year 1924. Earlier it was using the name Seikosha for wall clocks, desk clocks as well as pocket watches. Seiko’s history started in the year 1881 in Ginza district in  Tokyo, Japan. The company original named after its founder, Kintaro Hatori ie K. Hattori & Co., Ltd., now is known as Seiko Corporation of Japan.
Seiko is famed for its technological advancement and some of its technological uniqueness made breakthroughs among the Swiss watch manufacturers. The Seiko 'Master watchmaker’ is respected by Swiss experts.

The following points are based on my understanding of Swiss and Seiko watches gather from Internet forum, and extract from watch magazines.
 
1. Grand Seiko Hi-Beat 36000 and Zenith El-Primero are two mechanical wristwatch movements which beats at 10 ‘vibration’ or ‘beat’ per second (10bps – beat per second). At the scale 36,000bph (10bps x 60 second x 60 minute) the movement can be scaled at 1/10th of a second and is really very accurate for a ‘chronograph’ measurement. Zenith’s movement is called ‘El-Primero’ (the one and only).But it is not the only movement which has 36,000bph in the world. Seiko also have that too and managed to get a COSC (Contrôle Officiel Suisse des Chronom?tres) standard recognition end of 1960s and is used in its Grand Seiko model. For a vintage Grand Seiko Hi-Beat 36000 model, not only it is expensive but harder to find (till the latest announcement of a remake of the Grand Seiko launcehed this year, 2011) I believe the value of this vintage Grand Seiko is higher that the vintage Swiss watch in the same category and year of make like Rolex, Gerard Perrageux and Omega. Rolex never produced a movement that can give 36,000bph (only as high as 8bps/28,800bph). Rolex did El-Primero movement in its Cosmograph model at one time.

2. When Swiss-made watches requires the user to turn the crown to move the hands front and back to change the day/date calendar, Seiko already has this technology in place (quick-set date) trough  ‘lever setting stem’ where the crown is pulled out to turn the Calendar Plate without interrupting the hands movement! There is some Seiko model which used date pusher to change the date like Bellmatic 4006 dan Chronograph 6139 models. The method to change the calendar date manually by Seiko was copied by most Swiss manufacturer till now.

3. The Seiko automatic 6319 chronograph movement launched in 1969 is the first  chronograph movement using “vertical clutch” or “column wheel” for ‘zero reset’ operation and is more stable dan accurate. Compared with using a ‘train wheel’ in a movement from Swiss manufacturer like Valjoux, Lemania, Lejoux Perret, Venus   etc; Seiko’s chronograph was the better one during the 1970s. Among the Seiko chronograph model which is liked by vintage watch collectors are automatic models 6139, 6138 and 7016. Comparatively, the Swiss counterpart for chronograph models which is popular at the same period is Rolex ‘Daytona Cosmograph’ which used Valjoux 7730, Zenith El-Primero and Venus movement; Omega Speedmaster used Lemania movement; and TAG Heuer Monaco used ‘in-house movement’ Calibre 11 which originally was developed by Heuer – Leonidas.

4. Seiko is the only mechanical watch maker which has many “chronograph movement” variation if compared with Swiss watch manufacturer.
Since the early production of Seiko’s “column wheel chronograph” 5717, Seiko has produced the mechanical version which is more stable, ie movement 5718, 5719, 6138, 6139, 7015 to 7018 series, 45899, and the latest being  5R86 ‘Spring-Drive Chronograph’ series.
Most Swiss watch manufacturers, for example Tag Heuer, Omega, Longines, Breitling, Panerai etc, used Valjoux (now known as ETA Valjoux) movement like 7750, ETA 2894, Lemania etc. These corporations named the basic “engine” or ‘ebouche’ Valjoux whch they changed to their own name Only a handful of 'Haute Horlogerie'(meaning the company which produced all the parts and assembled them into finish goods)used their own movement (in house movement) such as Audemars Piguet, Piaget, Breguet, Blancpain, Jaeger LeCoutre, Patek Philippe, Rolex etc

5. Seiko is the only watch manufacturer that produced its own in house movement. It is the only quartz and mechanical watch producer which used more than 20 types of movements and qualified to be a Haute Horlogerie as all its parts were produced in house (R&D, component making, assembly line etc).
Most Swiss watch maker do not used their own movement. Swiss “quartz” watches generally used ‘ETA’ or ‘RONDA’ movement whilst ‘Swiss Mechanical’ watches generally used ETA movement. The one mostly used are ETA 2824 dan ETA 2836 (28,800bph) for calendar and GMT watches. Chronograph watches mainly used Valjoux 7750 dan ETA 2894 configuration. (But Seiko models and series used its own movement).

6. During the 1960s when a group of Swiss watch producer was busy inventing and developing the quartz watch, Seiko beats them to it by producing its quartz wrist watch called ‘Seiko Astron’ in 1968. The stability and accuracy of Seiko quartz watches has made most of the Swiss watch producer to make quartz watches a trend in the 1970s till end 1990s. Most Swiss made quartz watch used ETA or Ronda movement. Brands such as Omega, Longines, Tissot, TAG Heuer, Rado, Movado, dan Swatch all used the same “engine” or movement. Seiko? It used its in house quartz movement. TAG Heuer Golf watch used Ronda quartz movement of which its price is around 10% from its retail price! My guess is that the brand, the word “Swiss Made” and Tiger Woods’ goodwill (at that time) is the reason for such a high price. Seiko’s quartz  movement is much better that its Swiss counterpart. Only that the best Seiko Quartz model is limited in its production.
 
7. The world’s dive master mostly wears Seiko’s dive watch since this is the most popular watch among professional scuba divers. Apart form Rolex Submariner and Sea-dweller, Seiko is the only brand that used its own in house movement.
Since 1990s, Omega Seamaster used ETA movement in its diving watches. Same goes for DOXA (which produced the first “Orange Dive”) which relies on ETA movement. The Italian Navy which used – 'Panerai Marina' relies on ETA and Unitas 6750 movement (except in the 1930s & early 1940s, Panerei used Rolex movement). Therefore most ding professional respected Seiko from its specification, movement, variation and its toughness. Many nicknames were given like Seiko Submariner (Rolex cousin?), Tuna Can, Tuna Flake, Monster, Samurai, Sumo and Orange Monster(can rival DOXA Sub-500T).

Summary
Seiko watches is not ‘second class’ or ‘low class’ watch which is frequently looked down by most watch enthusiasts in Asia, especially in Malaysia.
History has shown Seiko’s ability to influence technological development of watch making worldwide.
Maybe because its marketing strategy where Seiko placed most of its products at the working class (lower and middle market),therefore the general perception is it is on par with other Japanese brands like Orient, Citzen and Casio.
Seiko’s elite model like Grand Seiko, can be found in Japan, US and European market.Why? Reason is  Asians do not look up to Seiko’s ability to be on par with Swiss watches. Every watch collector in US and Europe will sure have one Seiko elite model. If in Asia, every watch collector will sure have (minimum) a Rolex in their collection.

Source :
1) Wikipedia
2) http://www.seikowatches.com/
3) International Watch magazines
4) Pictures frm Seiko Institute of Horology
« Last Edit: September 06, 2011, 02:44:10 PM by Watchnewby »

Offline Peiseh

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Re: Ramblings Of A Seiko Fan
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2011, 03:30:41 PM »
 :thumbsup:

Yup, couldn't agree with you more. Seiko watches are the most under-rated watch around.

Offline siodee

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Re: Ramblings Of A Seiko Fan
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2011, 03:32:25 PM »
Good defense for Seiko, yup, agree, Seiko produce some of the great watches. Actually I don't care how others perceive the watch I wear, cause I wear it for myself, shiok sendiri  ;D
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Offline engkow

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Re: Ramblings Of A Seiko Fan
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2011, 03:33:13 PM »
i always swiss watch are better, now i have second thought.
thank for very educational topic/information :thumbsup:

Offline meoramri

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Re: Ramblings Of A Seiko Fan
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2011, 03:38:06 PM »
Totally agree! one of my cherished Seikos: The Seiko Ananta Double Retrograde Automatic
Main watch blog visit: http://easternwatch.blogspot.com

Offline Watchnewby

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Re: Ramblings Of A Seiko Fan
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2011, 04:32:37 PM »
From technological point of view, Seiko can be said to be on par with Rolex. Only the price and value perceived by watch enthusiasts in Asia makes both differs tremendously. 
For example, the price for the entry model of a Seiko Spring-Drive, is around $3,500. The 'Credor' range from Seiko has a model which is called “mechanical Sonnerie” (because it emits a ring tone every 15 minutes, 30 minutes, dan 1 hour with different tunes) is one of the most expensive ‘minute repeater’ watch in the world with a starting price of $350,000!


Offline bryankwc

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Re: Ramblings Of A Seiko Fan
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2011, 05:39:54 PM »
Nice write up.  :thumbsup:
I used to owned a couple of Seiko's - the last 1 was a Dual Alarm Analogue. Forgot what was the model no.
It was 1 of my favs for a long time.  :Dancing_banana:
It went dodo a couple of years ago and when I took it to a local AD, he advised me to forget about getting it repaired cos it's such an old model, it'll be too expensive and no guarantees they still have the spare parts.  :Mad:
Now I'm thinking of getting another Seiko - a 5 or the Orange Moster - to keep me company until I get my grail.  :Praying:
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Offline Gigi

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Re: Ramblings Of A Seiko Fan
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2011, 05:44:59 PM »
I had to say seiko is a good manufacture but alot of ppl think seiko=cheapo watch which i dont like very much  :HammerHead: :HammerHead:

ANother thing that  :thumbsdown: abt seiko is that they tend not to support vintage stuff when compared to the likes of lolmega and lolex or high end swiss watch manufacturer. Heck even modern production seiko also had parts support life of only around 5 years after the product is discontinue. I am not sure about modern GS though  ???.. This is the only part that I wanna complain abt seiko  :HammerHead:

Offline bOcy

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Re: Ramblings Of A Seiko Fan
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2011, 08:09:51 PM »
Nice writing.

People would rather spend the same RM30,000 for "Made in Swiss" rather than for Grand Seiko.

The spring drive is a beautiful movement, but would the 'hybrid' movement put you off? since most people prefer 100% mechanical.

Any GS owners here?

-bocy

Offline takashi78

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Re: Ramblings Of A Seiko Fan
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2011, 08:10:24 PM »
I miss the one i once had...

Offline bryankwc

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Re: Ramblings Of A Seiko Fan
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2011, 09:48:05 PM »
Nice and classic looking piece.
I would probably wear it to work everyday - if I had it  ;D
What happened? Did you let it go for a better watch?
Take care, Ciao!  :thumbsup:
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Offline dpkong

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Re: Ramblings Of A Seiko Fan
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2011, 10:10:26 PM »
can a Seiko last 50 years or more?

Japanese are good at copying and mass-production. somehow, they haven't learnt to create classics. i've seen Seiko in watch display cases but none sing to me and i know the good ones aren't cheap. it's not the brand, it's the appeal.

Offline Watchnewby

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Re: Ramblings Of A Seiko Fan
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2011, 08:05:36 AM »
Both of you have a points each there, gigi and dpkong on the downside of Seiko.

I agreed with the followings :
gigi - "they tend not to support vintage stuff when compared to the likes of lolmega and lolex or high end swiss watch manufacturer. Heck even modern production seiko also had parts support life of only around 5 years after the product is discontinue"

dpkong - "it's not the brand, it's the appeal"

Will do more reading up and researches on the above.
The only certainty at this moment is that majority of the divers that I know of "swears by" the Seiko's dive watch.

Offline meoramri

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Re: Ramblings Of A Seiko Fan
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2011, 09:19:55 AM »
i disagree about no support for old seikos.  I know someone (who is a member of this forum) that regularly gets old seikos on the cheap and beautifully gets them restored by professionals.

for the local ADs to claim the opposite is definitely not true. i also know an engineer for Malaysia's main distributor that insist that every seiko can be mended with the necessary parts. Even if there is no parts available here, they will make arrangement for it to be shipped back to Japan for the required TLC.

if you have any problems with any of your seikos, please go directly to the main dealer (you can google the address: in the Central Plaza building in KL).

p.s. I don't represent the distributor. I am just passionate about the brand.

Main watch blog visit: http://easternwatch.blogspot.com

Offline Watchnewby

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Re: Ramblings Of A Seiko Fan
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2011, 09:31:45 AM »
Thank you for the clarification, meoramri.

Yes, old vintage Seikos can be restored if one is passionate about the brand. It is just like restoring the old Swiss-made watch.

Offline dpkong

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Re: Ramblings Of A Seiko Fan
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2011, 08:02:40 PM »
do you really think anyone wants to spend a lot of money to ship a reasonably cheap Seiko all the way back to Japan to fix? what will the costs be like? why can't Seiko Japan ship the parts here?

i'm not sure how many different movements Seiko makes or how many parts are in each movement but i think Rolex got it right by having only a few types of movements thus keeping a stock of parts will not become too difficult.


Offline sshark

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Re: Ramblings Of A Seiko Fan
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2011, 08:37:31 AM »
You can't compare Seiko to Rolex. Rolex only target the upper food chain segment whereas Seiko bascially covers all segments with quartz and mechanical flavours. It makes sense to have so many calibres to fit every level. I agreed Rolex did a nice job as servicing and staff training are alot easier :)

Offline bryankwc

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Re: Ramblings Of A Seiko Fan
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2011, 12:37:25 PM »
Any Sifu know what's the average lifespan of a Seiko model before they discontinue it?
I'm still a bit benggan cos the AD claims my fav piece can't be repaired just becos it's discontinued.  :Mad:

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Offline meoramri

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Re: Ramblings Of A Seiko Fan
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2011, 09:12:23 AM »
Any Sifu know what's the average lifespan of a Seiko model before they discontinue it?
I'm still a bit benggan cos the AD claims my fav piece can't be repaired just becos it's discontinued.  :Mad:

If you don't mind my suggestion (in case you have not done it yet), email Seiko Japan and explain to them what the local AD told you. They can confirm whether its true or not.
Main watch blog visit: http://easternwatch.blogspot.com

Offline bryankwc

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Re: Ramblings Of A Seiko Fan
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2011, 09:23:43 AM »
Any Sifu know what's the average lifespan of a Seiko model before they discontinue it?
I'm still a bit benggan cos the AD claims my fav piece can't be repaired just becos it's discontinued.  :Mad:

If you don't mind my suggestion (in case you have not done it yet), email Seiko Japan and explain to them what the local AD told you. They can confirm whether its true or not.

Yup, I thought about it but didn't wanna make a mountain out of a molehile.  :HammerHead:
It wasn't an expensive piece, just that I like it.
Also, I don't want to get the AD in trouble becos I still visit his shop now & then.
Well, time to move on.
Take care, Ciao!  :thumbsup:
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Offline jet78

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Re: Ramblings Of A Seiko Fan
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2011, 03:40:16 PM »
Couldnt help by diggin my nose in here!!! I love Seiko's TUNA dive watches...

The SBDN013 which is a Quartz movement

and the SBDX011 which is automatic....

both watches aren't cheap either. if i'm not mistaken you can only buy them direct from Japan...


Offline adrian_fai

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Re: Ramblings Of A Seiko Fan
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2011, 09:31:37 PM »
Hi guys. A new user here  ;) Am a new fans for watches and are looking for one Seiko too~Any recommendations on where i can get the best deal on Seiko 5 and Automatics? Appreciate your help  :thumbsup:
Good day everyone ;)

Offline Friday

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Re: Ramblings Of A Seiko Fan
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2011, 10:47:52 PM »


I dont mind having another or even more seiko...

This one...

 :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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Offline chin

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Re: Ramblings Of A Seiko Fan
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2011, 07:16:11 AM »
Nice write up, so convienced that I went out and bought a seiko 5 - cheap, unassuming and durable.

To be honest I was 1 of those who sniggered at seiko grand's pricing.

To me seiko is targeted at the mass market and thus loses its 'snob appeal', I would not want to be wearing the same brand as my subordinate although I paid RM20k for my seiko grand while he paid RM350 for his seiko quartz.

That is the reason  luxury brands price their wares exorbitantly - the more expensive the more exclusive - snob appeal

Offline Watchnewby

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Re: Ramblings Of A Seiko Fan
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2011, 07:44:17 AM »
Couldnt help by diggin my nose in here!!! I love Seiko's TUNA dive watches...

The SBDN013 which is a Quartz movement

and the SBDX011 which is automatic....

both watches aren't cheap either. if i'm not mistaken you can only buy them direct from Japan...

These are JDM timepieces. In layman terms, Seiko only made these watches for the Japan Domestic Market, and not sold elsewhere; hence better in terms of quality and workmanship.


Hi guys. A new user here  ;) Am a new fans for watches and are looking for one Seiko too~Any recommendations on where i can get the best deal on Seiko 5 and Automatics? Appreciate your help  :thumbsup:

Actually any of the Seiko's retail shop like CitX ChaXX (name not revealed as may flout the forum Rules) do have Seiko 5 in their display.
Otherwise go direct to the authorised distributor in Malaysia. (Link : http://www.thongsia.com.my/content/dealers/dealers.php) - Mod, if go against forum rules, please amend

« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 07:53:19 AM by Watchnewby »