Author Topic: Seiko watch question  (Read 9046 times)

Offline TheHobbit

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3328
Seiko watch question
« on: January 31, 2013, 04:16:16 PM »
Just a simple question, why on some Seiko diver watches, the lume bob on the sweep seconds hand is on the opposite end of the pointer?

Offline TheHobbit

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3328
Re: Seiko watch question
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2013, 05:26:22 AM »
I am sure some pictures would help.....

Seiko Orange Monster. As you can see the lume plot is at the indicator side of the sweep seconds hand.



As is on Seiko Stargate.



But on the SKX007 diver, the lume plot is on the opposite end. The sweep seconds hand shows 15 seconds, but the lume plot is at 45 seconds.



Any idea why?

Offline Enkidu

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1121
Re: Seiko watch question
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2013, 05:27:13 AM »
Just a simple question, why on some Seiko diver watches, the lume bob on the sweep seconds hand is on the opposite end of the pointer?

I answered this question a couple of times in another forum.

The early generation 150M Seiko divers from the late 1960's to 1970's all had automatic movements (Cal. 6217M, Cal. 6159, Cal. 6105, Cal. 6306/9, etc.). In these watches (I believe) all the second hand were equipped with lume "lollipop" on the front tip. This is similar to what you see in most other watches (whether swiss or japanese).

Then Seiko introduced its first (perhaps the world's first also) quartz diver in the late 1970's / 1980's using the Cal. 7548 (non-shrouded diver) and the Cal. 7549 (shrouded / tuna divers). As we all know, the movement of the second hand in a quartz watch starts and stops suddenly throughout its operating life. The stress caused to the quartz movement's gear train is different from that experienced in a mechanical watch.

In tandem with the use of these quartz calibers, the lumed "lollipop" migrated to the rear end of the second hand. Some people called it the "wrong end", but mechanically I was made to understand it was for the purpose of balancing the mass distribution of the second hand so that the centre of gravity is as close as possible to the rotating axis. This contributes to reducing angular stress and impact on the quartz movement gear trains every time the second hand suddenly starts and stops.

The Seiko divers with Cal 7002 / 7005 in the late 1980's / 1990's were probably the last automatic seiko divers with the lumed "lollipop" at the front end of the second hand. You will see the second hands in many later seiko divers (in the 1990's and 2000's) with automatic calibers (Cal. 7S26 and 7S36 mostly) also having the lumed "lollipop" but at the rear end like its quartz variants. For example, the SKX007 and SKX009.  The second hand in automatic diver moves in sweeping motion, so the stress and impact issue seen in the quartz calibers is not as critical. It can therefore carry both style of second hand (front or rear lumed "lollipop"). IMHO, for these automatic watches, Seiko chose to place the lumed lollipop at the rear end of the second hand for design purposes only and nothing more.

Likewise, Seiko diver movements deriving from quartz technology (for example, the kinetic and solar which came out in the 1990's/2000's) also used the same second hand design (lumed lollipop at the rear end). I am not 100% sure why the same design is used in the free moving Spring Drive diver but I remember reading the reason was to keep low braking force in the tri-synchro regulator mechanism, though I am not 100% convinced.

There are many variants of second hand design to counter the mass distribution problem (in both automatic and quartz watches) so the above is just a very rough guide. Also bear in mind that many seiko watches were modded so they may not carry the original factory second hand.

Hope the above helps.  ;D




Offline chrisyen

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5959
Re: Seiko watch question
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2013, 06:14:43 AM »
Thx master...

Without u I thought the designer jus attended a reverse thinking methodology class

Offline TheHobbit

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3328
Re: Seiko watch question
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2013, 06:21:01 AM »
Enkidu,

Thanks for the response. So the placement of the lume on the 'wrong' end on modern Seiko is more cosmetics then with a purpose? But the question of balancing the mass distribution on quartz powered watches is interesting. However have a look at this Casio diver from the 80s. The lume plot is way near the tip of the seconds hand while the balance portion on the other side is rather small.


Offline davidtth

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 819
Re: Seiko watch question
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2013, 06:25:09 AM »
just found out the gs diver also have  :o

great ! thanks for explanation again masta  :angel:

Offline Godzillaz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 910
Re: Seiko watch question
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2013, 07:19:24 AM »
Could this also due to the issue of battery? I would suspect in 70s battery weren't as powerful as they are today.

You raise a good point about the shocks receive from an advancing second thru a jumping seconds mechanism is much stronger than a conventional sweeping setup.

I not familiar with the development of quartz movement so this maybe a silly question to ask. Was idea of a jumping second a deliberate design or it is due to limitation of the quartz technology?

Regard
Tyler

Just a simple question, why on some Seiko diver watches, the lume bob on the sweep seconds hand is on the opposite end of the pointer?

I answered this question a couple of times in another forum.

The early generation 150M Seiko divers from the late 1960's to 1970's all had automatic movements (Cal. 6217M, Cal. 6159, Cal. 6105, Cal. 6306/9, etc.). In these watches (I believe) all the second hand were equipped with lume "lollipop" on the front tip. This is similar to what you see in most other watches (whether swiss or japanese).

Then Seiko introduced its first (perhaps the world's first also) quartz diver in the late 1970's / 1980's using the Cal. 7548 (non-shrouded diver) and the Cal. 7549 (shrouded / tuna divers). As we all know, the movement of the second hand in a quartz watch starts and stops suddenly throughout its operating life. The stress caused to the quartz movement's gear train is different from that experienced in a mechanical watch.

In tandem with the use of these quartz calibers, the lumed "lollipop" migrated to the rear end of the second hand. Some people called it the "wrong end", but mechanically I was made to understand it was for the purpose of balancing the mass distribution of the second hand so that the centre of gravity is as close as possible to the rotating axis. This contributes to reducing angular stress and impact on the quartz movement gear trains every time the second hand suddenly starts and stops.

The Seiko divers with Cal 7002 / 7005 in the late 1980's / 1990's were probably the last automatic seiko divers with the lumed "lollipop" at the front end of the second hand. You will see the second hands in many later seiko divers (in the 1990's and 2000's) with automatic calibers (Cal. 7S26 and 7S36 mostly) also having the lumed "lollipop" but at the rear end like its quartz variants. For example, the SKX007 and SKX009.  The second hand in automatic diver moves in sweeping motion, so the stress and impact issue seen in the quartz calibers is not as critical. It can therefore carry both style of second hand (front or rear lumed "lollipop"). IMHO, for these automatic watches, Seiko chose to place the lumed lollipop at the rear end of the second hand for design purposes only and nothing more.

Likewise, Seiko diver movements deriving from quartz technology (for example, the kinetic and solar which came out in the 1990's/2000's) also used the same second hand design (lumed lollipop at the rear end). I am not 100% sure why the same design is used in the free moving Spring Drive diver but I remember reading the reason was to keep low braking force in the tri-synchro regulator mechanism, though I am not 100% convinced.

There are many variants of second hand design to counter the mass distribution problem (in both automatic and quartz watches) so the above is just a very rough guide. Also bear in mind that many seiko watches were modded so they may not carry the original factory second hand.

Hope the above helps.  ;D

Offline harkensng

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 98
Re: Seiko watch question
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2013, 03:26:10 PM »
Hahaha so typical of enkidu's answers lots of physics info. Anyway where are u bro? Why so quiet these days? Stuck in Kazakhstan?   :Laughing_on_floor:

Offline JPSP

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 826
Re: Seiko watch question
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2013, 09:34:44 AM »
I've a question too.

I bought a GS recently and noticed that the power reserve indicator shows full power when the PR indicator hand is at the bottom instead of the top. I'm kinda used to the format of our car fuel indicator or other PR indicator in Swiss/German watches. Is there a reason why?

Cheers

James

Offline Watchnewby

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1289
Re: Seiko watch question
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2013, 09:05:53 AM »
I've a question too.

I bought a GS recently and noticed that the power reserve indicator shows full power when the PR indicator hand is at the bottom instead of the top. I'm kinda used to the format of our car fuel indicator or other PR indicator in Swiss/German watches. Is there a reason why?

Cheers

James

Well, just like car fuel indicator, F=Full, E= Empty.
I always joke with my son, nephew and nieces, F= Finish, E=Enough.  :Laughing_on_floor:

Offline JPSP

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 826
Re: Seiko watch question
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2013, 11:06:05 AM »
I've a question too.

I bought a GS recently and noticed that the power reserve indicator shows full power when the PR indicator hand is at the bottom instead of the top. I'm kinda used to the format of our car fuel indicator or other PR indicator in Swiss/German watches. Is there a reason why?

Cheers

James

Well, just like car fuel indicator, F=Full, E= Empty.
I always joke with my son, nephew and nieces, F= Finish, E=Enough.  :Laughing_on_floor:

Maybe i wasn't clear when i asked the question

i find it weird that full power of this watch is the other way round compared to car fuel indicator..the arrow points to the bottom instead of pointing to the top of the watch PR curve indicator..which is totally opposite of a typical car fuel indicator.

Offline Enkidu

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1121
Re: Seiko watch question
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2013, 06:21:08 PM »
I've a question too.

I bought a GS recently and noticed that the power reserve indicator shows full power when the PR indicator hand is at the bottom instead of the top. I'm kinda used to the format of our car fuel indicator or other PR indicator in Swiss/German watches. Is there a reason why?

Cheers

James

Dear James,

Ask not the question........go practise some meditation, attain enlightenment and seek the elusive answer to this very Zen question. Some appreciation of buddhism philosophy..."form is emptiness, emptiness is form" will also be helpful. When the watch's mainspring is fully wound, it no longer has any capacity to receive more potential energy, hence the little arrow points downwards with solemness, showing fullness of potential energy but "nothingness" and "emptiness" in respect of its ability to receive more. You see, form is emptiness and the very emptiness is form; emptiness does not differ from form, form does not differ from emptiness; whatever is form, that is emptiness, whatever is emptiness, that is form, the same is true of feelings, perceptions, impulses and consciousness.

I hope the above is helpful. Happy meditating and hope to hear from you again once you have attained enlightenment....Om mani padme hum...Om mani padme hum....Om mani padme hum.....

Offline euclidorus

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 142
Re: Seiko watch question
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2013, 05:34:54 PM »
Only someone highly cultivated can understand emptiness.  :Praying:  truly a wise man.

I've a question too.

I bought a GS recently and noticed that the power reserve indicator shows full power when the PR indicator hand is at the bottom instead of the top. I'm kinda used to the format of our car fuel indicator or other PR indicator in Swiss/German watches. Is there a reason why?

Cheers

James

Dear James,

Ask not the question........go practise some meditation, attain enlightenment and seek the elusive answer to this very Zen question. Some appreciation of buddhism philosophy..."form is emptiness, emptiness is form" will also be helpful. When the watch's mainspring is fully wound, it no longer has any capacity to receive more potential energy, hence the little arrow points downwards with solemness, showing fullness of potential energy but "nothingness" and "emptiness" in respect of its ability to receive more. You see, form is emptiness and the very emptiness is form; emptiness does not differ from form, form does not differ from emptiness; whatever is form, that is emptiness, whatever is emptiness, that is form, the same is true of feelings, perceptions, impulses and consciousness.

I hope the above is helpful. Happy meditating and hope to hear from you again once you have attained enlightenment....Om mani padme hum...Om mani padme hum....Om mani padme hum.....
Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens.