Officine Panerai - Just a fashion house??

[G.MAC]

No offence taken but I am not sure why Mr. Darwin has to be dragged into this discussion. I never mentioned anything about "evolving", so I believe it's only logical you direct your question to GMAC (and now Hobitt) who did.

I mean they are just changing the look because people love the sandwich dial, faux patina, gold hands, different dials. Minor changes to the watch. Overall, you cant deny that Panerai as a whole has looked the same. Same can be said for Rolex. With all the ceramic bezel, maxi dial, maxi case and all that. Why are most Rolex moving towards the ceramic bezel and maxi cases? It is not because they have degraded to become fashion brands. It is just that the market wants it like that. The submariner has looked the same throughout. The GMT2 as well. Same can be said for other brands. Omega, Tag, Breitling, and all. It is the era of big watches now. So in truth, 'evolving' is a means of changing and adapting. Thats all. Whats with all the negativity with Panerai anyway? I do agree on one point though. The countless special edition from Panerai will one day render Panerai not so special.

[Godzillaz]

Is that how you perceive people? You can't be serious  What happen about ethic and honesty. Am I in the wrong place?

Regards
Tyler

How I perceive people subjectively has no bearing to this discussion surely.

But you are making a open statement on a public forum. Some good folks who don't fall under the category you describe got drag in as well. Can't we be more caution on our conduct?

I don't wanna be perceive as one if I ever come to sell a pam. 

Regards
Tyler

[Enkidu]

Is that how you perceive people? You can't be serious  What happen about ethic and honesty. Am I in the wrong place?

Regards
Tyler

How I perceive people subjectively has no bearing to this discussion surely.

But you are making a open statement on a public forum. Some good folks who don't fall under the category you describe got drag in as well. Can't we be more caution on our conduct?

I don't wanna be perceive as one if I ever come to sell a pam. 

Regards
Tyler

OK, I am sorry if I cause you any mental anguish. But ethic and honesty are like religion. Sensitive issues best left to another thread or forum which I will definitely not participate.

[TheHobbit]

Have Rolex made any improvement to its movements? Have Seiko?

Sorry Hobitt, I find these statements rather unsuited coming from an expert like you. It's one thing to have a stand that OP is not a fashion house, but quite ungainly to ignore the improvements made by Rolex and Seiko. Enough said.

To general a statement, for which I apologise. Let's get specifics.....

Seiko monster watches..... Movement: 7s26
Model: orange monster, black monster, blue monster, white monster and the list goes on and on and on.....
Solve the basic movement, change the dial colour, case stainless steel or dlc, bezel dlc, and various other combinations...cosmetics? No, because good movement? Any improvement in the movement across the model offering?

Rolex submariner date..... Movement: 3135
Model: the standard black and the kermit. Not even looking at the tt.
Solve the basic movement, change the bezel insert to green, maxi dial and hands, cosmetic? No, because good movement?

By definition, focus on appearance, cosmetic change, fashion brand, no?

[muckingfental]

Wow! Passion runs deep in both the pros and cons, in this topic as well as the Rolex topic...

To me, the watch manufacturer is only as good as the people that want it and buys it. Rolex and Panerai above all other manufacturers knows this very well. If you like them, are crazy for them then you buy their watches. Great for them.

If you don't like their watches, you don't buy them but still talks about them. Good for them too! It's always a win-win for them whether they're on your wrist or in your hatelist.

[Enkidu]

To general a statement, for which I apologise. Let's get specifics.....

Seiko monster watches..... Movement: 7s26
Model: orange monster, black monster, blue monster, white monster and the list goes on and on and on.....
Solve the basic movement, change the dial colour, case stainless steel or dlc, bezel dlc, and various other ombinations...cosmetics? No, because good movement?

Rolex submariner date..... Movement: 3135
Model: the standard black and the kermit.
Solve the basic movement, change he bezel insert to green, cosmetic change! No, because good movement?

By definition, focus on appearance, cosmetic change, fashion brand, no?

Since our focus is PAM and not seiko and rolex, I'll keep my reply brief (my pad's battery running low also):

- Yes, the 7s26 is still being used, but as far back as 2002, Seiko was already using an upgrade 7s36 with 23J I think. No improvement? The 7S (if I remember correctly) with about 40hrs of PR also formed the basis for the 6R15 with 50hrs of PR. No improvement?? What about Seiko's proprietary SPRON51 mainspring and SPRON610 balance spring? Not worth mentioning compared to the various dials that go into the monsters?

- As regards Rolex, what about the 3186? Not an improvement? The ceramic bezel, not an improvement? The Sky-Dweller is not an improvement of course, it's a new development altogether (unless I have missed something like Rolex secretly asking Franck Mueller to design it).

Again, Hobbitt, enough said. I begin to feel that we will not get much more out of each other and the other members. 

[TheHobbit]

Since our focus is PAM and not seiko and rolex, I'll keep my reply brief (my pad's battery running low also):

- Yes, the 7s26 is still being used, but as far back as 2002, Seiko was already using an upgrade 7s36 with 23J I think. No improvement? The 7S (if I remember correctly) with about 40hrs of PR also formed the basis for the 6R15 with 50hrs of PR. No improvement?? What about Seiko's proprietary SPRON51 mainspring and SPRON610 balance spring? Not worth mentioning compared to the various dials that go into the monsters?

- As regards Rolex, what about the 3186? Not an improvement? The ceramic bezel, not an improvement? The Sky-Dweller is not an improvement of course, it's a new development altogether (unless I have missed something like Rolex secretly asking Franck Mueller to design it).

Again, Hobbitt, enough said. I begin to feel that we will not get much more out of each other and the other members.

Ok, since we talking about panerai, ceramic case, improvement? Outsource to in house movement, improvement?

[am_sober]

To me a fashion brand is one that gets someone else to make their watches, like Hugo boss or nautica or Adidas. A company that makes its own movement, regardless good or bad, it's own cases, have a design team, factory, and even makes and design for other brands, Ferrari and even montblanc can't be a fashion brand. It may not be the best at making watches, but it is for sure not a fashion brand.

 
totally agrees on this perception on the fashion brand..

btw whats the real/accepted definition of fashion brand?
imho, if we got that right then the problem solved~ ^^

tc cheers~
 

[Enkidu]

Ok, since we talking about panerai, ceramic case, improvement? Outsource to in house movement, improvement?

Hobbitt, If you think ceramic case is a big deal, Chanel also has a ceramic case and it comes in white, black and maybe other colours. I have already told you how I felt about the movements. But they do not however detract from my argument that OP focuses more on the cosmetics and strap.

(I think we are getting no where in this thread. Again, enough said b4 this degenerates into silliness).

[rusminag]

Cool... we agree to disagree.... I like..

Is OP a fashion house?? used to.... but now that it is creating its own movements, I would say that it is now a serious watchmaker.

[TheHobbit]

Enkidu,

I have nothing to add. We have our beliefs and stand. And I guess that is where it will remain.

[fidoneo]

With all due respect, this is plain unsound advice. Maybe that's how the PAM fashion virus spread.

Are you afraid you might get catch it as well? 

OK, ok back to being serious. A buying a watch is a rather personal, emotional and spiritual process. Quite a complicated subject to dissect. While most cases can be conclude in a short time. Others might take a little more time. The spirit of the watch can't be obeserve by sitting on the fences overlooking in a broad view.




In panerai's case, this is evident. Sure we often see wannabes, showoff and loud talker wearing big ol ugly pam. However to say that's all to it the panerai would be the same as saying rolex makes overprice waterproof watch or glashutte is just a cheaper, lower grade version of lange. How true is that statement?

Mind you there are lot of us who can quote the complete finishes of a watch movement and the history and logic behind design and execution of the watch. We don't start out buying Rolex and Panerai. In fact these are the last 2 brand that enter our collection.

The questions you be might be more interested in are

"Why Panerai?" 
"What's there to be gain after VC, PP, Lange and the independent?"
"Won't your money be better of with a JLC tourbillon than a tritium index panerai watch with unitas movement?"

... But once you have invested money (lots of money in this case) can we still comment on the watch objectively. Surely many people would not render honest but negative comment on his own watch which he hopes to sell.

Is that how you perceive people? You can't be serious  What happen about ethic and honesty. Am I in the wrong place?

Regards
Tyler

Well said 

Cheers to ristis out there 

[Enkidu]

Enkidu,

I have nothing to add. We have our beliefs and stand. And I guess that is where it will remain.

Yea Hobbitt, I guess it has been a good discussion whatever the conclusion may be. It's hard for me to convince others of my stand, and with armies and armies of PAM lovers out there, I was not expecting it to be easy. It seemed like I was all alone. My only surprise is so few brave knights of the order of PAM came to its defence. Likewise, it will be hard for these people to convince me to buy a PAM; that PAM382 for example, despite all the raving about the types of great looking patina that will form on the bronze case when you soak it in ketchup, sea water, distilled water, fruit juice etc, just not my fashion. Sorry. 

[zameenzahari]

Dear members,

It has always been my opinion that Officine Panerai is not a watchmaking company but a just fashion house like DKNY, Dior, ...etc.

Panerai watches are all more about looks + aesthetics. Panerai lovers' obsession with the leather straps and the multitude of companies making straps for these watches partly support this view. When the watches do not come with see-through casebacks, I have seen photos of the movement underneath being not just undecorated, but downright raw and rough. This is evidence that the company is more concerned about cosmetics than the actual performance of the watches themselves (considering the movement is the heart of a watch).  Companies like Stowa and Steinhart (or even Sea-Gull) have more self-respect than these Italians.

Considering their sizes, they look awkward as dress watches. Whilst some models have rotating bezel for diving, the majority don't - hence although these watches are claimed to be rated to 300m, they are practically useless as diving watches. In fact, it is not entirely clear which genre these watches belong to, except that they function as strong fashion statements for young people who want to appear bold and confident.

Their sale strategy (with countless special editions) shows they are not in the business of making good watches, but are here to play with human emotions and lust for exclusivity.

Let the discussion begin!!!

   

A few points:

-10/11 years ago, a lot of purists and WIS made the same comment that Panerai as a brand is just a fashion brand (though I was quite certain it was lumped together with Cartier and not DKNY) and it will just be a fad that will eventually die a slow death. The arguement is that OP just "rehashed" ETA ebauches and clothed them in some fancy case. Since then OP went on to have their own inhouse movement p.2002 and went on to expand the line which now includes complications like the equation of time and tourby as well. Have you also seen the level of mechanical and horological complications achieved by the Jupiterium? Do a google search and do tell me if Stowa and Steinhart which in your views are much better have exhibited capabilities remotely close to OP (by the way, OP is Officine Panerai)

 OP has also invested in R&D for new case materials like the panerai composite. OP has also made sigificant investment in their manufacture facilities which will be expanded significantly. From my numerous conversations with OP, the aim is to go full inhouse and reduce dependency on third parties including ETA/Valjoux. Yes, some I noted highlighted the fact that the inhouse movement are based on JLC movement- but my counter to that is : a) why reinvent the wheel when you can share what you have within the Richemont group b) although the basis of the design might be originally JLC's but the finished movements including the complications are exclusively panerai. These in my views signifies a significant paradigm shift in OP's manufacturing approach and offering to its customers from one of what you term "fashion watches" to haute horologie.

Made up history? The pre-Vendome panerai has existed continously as a company (in the watch related business and military precision instrument) since 1860 and despite being purchased by the Vendome group in 1997, remains a watch making company at heart. Granted that pre 1993 (when OP began selling their watches to the civilian market), not much is known about the company, it is because their only client was the marina militare (with a few exception like the egiziano which was manufactured for the Egyptian army and the Israeli Defence Force). The company experimented with watches for military application- does that not qualify as history? is it made up like those of B&R, Stowa, steinhart (the modern incarnations of course)? I dont think so. there are various documents from the military in the OP and Ferretti's archives which proves this. Honestly, with the exception of VC and maybe a few others, there are very few watchmaking company which has continously been producing haute horologie pieces since its inception. Even the venerable Lange that we all know and love is a re-incarnation of of its original self. History is just a facet of fine watchmaking but not necessarily a be all end all- ask Franck Muller, Urwerk, MB&F and Richard Mille for instance.

As far as being ugly watches which is impossible to be used formally, I beg to differ. I am in the financial industry and in every other meeting, there will be a guy wearing a suit & a PAM sitting next to a guy in a suit wearing a Breguet- none look out of place. Ugly or not its subjective- some people think the legacy machine of MB&F is ugly..I think they should be in the Louvre. I love the dial of my 339 for instance but even among ristis, there are others who dont. Just for the record- I dont like the look of Stowa or Steinhart- they look cheap but before you crucify me, that's my opinion and like a b**thole, everyone has one.

I've collected Panerais for a number of years now and to be honest, I've never lost money on any piece that I traded. In some instances, its increased several times over (google PAM 360, PAM 195). Worst deal I ever did- I got back what I paid for. Tell me one "fashion" brand where this is the case? Ok, name me haute horologie names where this is the case- it'll be very few I'm sure. Would this be the case if the brand is a total rip off? Could the many thousands collectors be as dumb as potrayed..jumping on the bandwagon without knowing the history etc?

As for playing with exclusivity and all looking the same, Take the AP ROO for example..same story? But ask anybody and nobody would equate AP as a fashion-playing with emotion-I'm so cool coz I have the Legacy watch right?

Every year the naysayer said that OP is going down as a fad fashion watch. So far, for the last decade or so, I've seen them proven wrong time and time again. OP is moving in the right direction and if pieces like the Astronomie (Equation of time, PAM 365) or PAM 350 (Le Scienziato) still does not illustrate OP's capable of manufacturing  haute horologie pieces  and is brand less worthy than a STOWA (?!!) then I dont know what will.......

I guess its time to get that Urwerk...

[kentkoh79]

oh well....seems like there is no ending discussion here just sharing my own opinions and thoughts here....I previously also self perceived myself as Rolex lover as I own a Sea dweller 16600 and GMT master II two tone -116713...never think of getting a panerai watch before as I always getting the info that panerai is not worth of its price and just a junk or rubbish ( according to hong kong watch forum famous description for Panerai :p  ) not until this year that i really study the history of panerai and start reading more and more post regarding the history and philosophy of this brand from different watch forum....thus only decided to buy a base model PAM 112 around June this year as a test drive for this brand.. what i can say to all diehard Rolex fans here is that just dun simply put on a panerai on your wrist as u will sooner or later get infected with panerai virus ! after i acquired my first PAM from JUne till now....it never leave my wrist everyday and i just can't go back to my Rolex.....they are resting peacefully in my watch box.... :p after so used to 44mm size , every time i try to put on my sea dweller or GMT back on my wrist , i will put them down again as i am wearing a "kid watch " ! not "MAN" at all !!  previously I still thinking of getting a daytona ......but now...i dun think so already....bcoz from this moment onward .... i only reallised that how much i in love with panerai....only thinking of getting PAM 372 , 422 , 382 as my next target !
as a conclusion :
1. not many people know about panerai brand and not as fancy as ROLEX big name especially to layman :  who cares ! As long as i like this brand
2.Resale value cannot compare with Rolex : who care ! i not going to let go my watch
3.Panerai movement and accuracy cannot compete with Rolex : who cares ! digital watch is the best ! 
4. Panerai is a rubbish : who cares ! because i love this rubbish ! :p

[Enkidu]

I always getting the info that panerai is not worth of its price and just a junk or rubbish ( according to hong kong watch forum famous description for Panerai :p  )

I believe you may find such compliments in TZ-UK also.

[dpkong]

...

after so used to 44mm size , every time i try to put on my sea dweller or GMT back on my wrist , i will put them down again as i am wearing a "kid watch " ! not "MAN" at all !!

...

I don't wish you inflame anyone here but to me, the above statement does kind of portray the Panerai brand as a "fashion brand" in my interpretation.

To me, a "fashion brand" is something you wear to match your clothes (casual, office) or mood or surroundings (diving, work etc). I just slap on the watch I have nearby and it will fit any situation. It's an Oyster and is fine whether in the water, at work or at dinner.

Yes, I do admit being a Rolex addict. I have looked at Panerai many times but as my previous post stated, they somehow look all alike. I do love the legibility of the dial but the size is just too large for average Asian wrists and just screams "Look at me!".

Even my regular grey dealer told me not to bother buying any, although he does sell a lot of them to those who want them. But to buyers on the fence, he says it's better not to touch them.

I do not read about Panerai history other than what is posted on this thread and have no interest to, as yet. However, knowing that most are either ETA or Unitas powered, they are just too overpriced. Their own in-house needs time to prove itself.

So, my opinion (for what it is worth) is that Panerai is a fashion brand mostly because the watch owners portray it as such.

[gloomis]

Let's answer with quotes of your opinion:-

"It has always been my opinion that Officine Panerai is not a watchmaking company but a just fashion house like DKNY, Dior, ...etc."
This is too harsh bro.  With the greatest of respect, I have to disagree.  Anyway, its just your personal opinion.  I or we cannot change how you want to opine. 

"This is evidence that the company is more concerned about cosmetics than the actual performance of the watches themselves (considering the movement is the heart of a watch).  Companies like Stowa and Steinhart (or even Sea-Gull) have more self-respect than these Italians."
Disagree.  Panerai is all about Robustness and legibility of the dial under the water.  History goes back to when they make watches for Italian Navy.  And when you say this you have indirectly admitted that Panerai is cosmetically superior.  Actual performance wise, they are building their own in-house movement.  

"Considering their sizes, they look awkward as dress watches."
Panerai has various sizes and models, which size and model are you referring to?  Luminor lines (which has the crown guard) are meant to be robust and not supposed to be dressy.  Submersible are meant to be diving watch NOT dress watch!  Radiomir lines are more elegant and dressy.  So, i have to disagree with you. 


"Their sale strategy (with countless special editions) shows they are not in the business of making good watches, but are here to play with human emotions and lust for exclusivity."
While I agree with you that they have countless special editions.  This is just a good marketing strategy.  These countless special editions do not mean that "they are not in the business of making good watches".   Does IWC not make countless limited edition of Pilot watches?  Does Audemars Piguet not make countless limited edition of ROO watches as well? Even JLC makes countless NAVY SEALS Limited edition watches!  And these are good watches bro! They are all good watches!!

Just my 2 cents!
[/quote]

bro, u earn my full respect. I salute u

[gloomis]

ZZ...impressive statement there but i guess there are just ppl dont really know abt the spirit of pams has and brings. to alot ppl they just know all pams look the same and mostly is a bunch of combination number and now some say is fashion watches.

well....as tyler said best way to know and understand the brand, just buy 1 and join the risti gtg then they will know how this brand get ppl connected worldwide.

[Enkidu]

ZZ...impressive statement there but i guess there are just ppl dont really know abt the spirit of pams has and brings. to alot ppl they just know all pams look the same and mostly is a bunch of combination number and now some say is fashion watches.

well....as tyler said best way to know and understand the brand, just buy 1 and join the risti gtg then they will know how this brand get ppl connected worldwide.

So, instead of just encouraging people like me to buy one, would the Panerai gurus care to explain in some detail what the "spirit" is all about. I am waiting, wanting and willing to be illuminated............

[tonykpk]

Wow the heat has just subsided , Rollie was not the subject here but it seems to be drag in.It sounds like the pillow case vs the crown. regards tony

[Godzillaz]

Well given the way you ask such question. I doubt you will get any spirited answer. 

I thought you have already make up your mine that Panerai watch are just fashion statement. According to the way you see things I have to agree. This brand is just not for you. They are overpriced, lousy Italian product with a huge marketing campaign supporting their business to con their customer.

Dead on, you're so right. YooHoo 

Regard
Tyler the stupid who don't anything.

So, instead of just encouraging people like me to buy one, would the Panerai gurus care to explain in some detail what the "spirit" is all about. I am waiting, wanting and willing to be illuminated............

[Enkidu]

C'mon Godzilla, I may still be persuaded otherwise, consistent with your - You'll never know till you buy one - mantra, you'll never know till you try. Debate is how the world should move forward. That's how we learn.

[fidoneo]

Let's answer with quotes of your opinion:-

"It has always been my opinion that Officine Panerai is not a watchmaking company but a just fashion house like DKNY, Dior, ...etc."
This is too harsh bro.  With the greatest of respect, I have to disagree.  Anyway, its just your personal opinion.  I or we cannot change how you want to opine. 

"This is evidence that the company is more concerned about cosmetics than the actual performance of the watches themselves (considering the movement is the heart of a watch).  Companies like Stowa and Steinhart (or even Sea-Gull) have more self-respect than these Italians."
Disagree.  Panerai is all about Robustness and legibility of the dial under the water.  History goes back to when they make watches for Italian Navy.  And when you say this you have indirectly admitted that Panerai is cosmetically superior.  Actual performance wise, they are building their own in-house movement.  

"Considering their sizes, they look awkward as dress watches."
Panerai has various sizes and models, which size and model are you referring to?  Luminor lines (which has the crown guard) are meant to be robust and not supposed to be dressy.  Submersible are meant to be diving watch NOT dress watch!  Radiomir lines are more elegant and dressy.  So, i have to disagree with you. 


"Their sale strategy (with countless special editions) shows they are not in the business of making good watches, but are here to play with human emotions and lust for exclusivity."
While I agree with you that they have countless special editions.  This is just a good marketing strategy.  These countless special editions do not mean that "they are not in the business of making good watches".   Does IWC not make countless limited edition of Pilot watches?  Does Audemars Piguet not make countless limited edition of ROO watches as well? Even JLC makes countless NAVY SEALS Limited edition watches!  And these are good watches bro! They are all good watches!!

Just my 2 cents!

bro, u earn my full respect. I salute u
[/quote]

Bro Gloomis ,

Each individual has their own preference bro.. My money i spend my own way . whether today i buy a pam or rolex or a "lapsap" watch . i Suka la.. HAHA.. anyway i am risti just like you and thanks to you .. Peace Bro ...


 

Stan

[ckcspice]

one man's meat is another man's poison...dont think any persuasion or opinions from either side of the camp will sway anyone to defect n switch sides ....so just buy what u like with ur own hard earned money....doesnt matter wat other folks say bout how u spend ur RM30k or RM100k...as long as u r happy....