Stirring the Paneristi's hornet nest...

[terrenceterrence]

Saw this heated debate over in P.com.

Richemont must be singing and popping bottles of Kristal all the way to the bank.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/353391/thread/1319322410/318+pictures+update.++Sorry+can%27t+respond+to+emails

Mods please delete is it's inappropriate

[jet78]

nice reading material to burn time!

[Friday]

  what happened to the "community so much more than a watch" ?

[TheHobbit]

what happened to the "community so much more than a watch" ?

The community is still there I guess, but as the community gets larger, you will find all sorts of interesting and colourful characters. And it is this type of diversity (and love) that makes the world goes round, not money. Money just helps it turn. That forum has grown and developed and it is interesting to see how it has grown.

With regards to the topic of discussion, it is sad to see Panerai fit the watches with these movement, more so in a micro se. However it must be said that Panerai is not known for its movement, but for its design. That does not excuse Panerai for doing what it did. Pride in the brand would at least dictate putting your brand, no matter how basic the movement is, on the movement. It does begs the question, what else have they done.

Having said that, the direction Panerai is heading and what it has been doing in the past 2 years, with lots of micro se, se with no large box and certs, models being discontinued after just 1 year, etc, does leave lots to be desired.

Will all these cause a drop in the sales? Will it cause the price of the watches to drop? I don't think so. It may cause a dent (small one) in the sales, but overall, not much impact. Panerai have to be careful though that it does not become a victim of its own success. You do see more models on the shelves not moving as compared to 5 years ago (including zeros and fives). Prices for per-loved models have stabilised and some se cannot fetch a premium, unlike years ago. What Panerai is doing is not helping either.

I for one am not complaining as it means I have access to more models at reasonable prices and also perhaps at a chance of getting some of those hard to get se models.

[hanz079]

Wow... thanks for the link.
It's a good read and yes I am surprised at the quality of movements fitted inside.
Looks like a china made replica if they did not mention that it's authentic.
Solid caseback or not, at that price point... I believe it's daylight robbery...
Daylight.... get it?? 

[Scott C.]

Wao..What the.....!!??

Understand it's case back but at least, for the price that they selling, engrave something to identify it's panerai la.... sorry, maybe just me having this thought!!

Thanks for sharing tho

[hanz079]

Hobbs... you seem to have quite a number of PAMs with solid caseback right?
Any fitted with that kind of movement?
Dsiewmy? Zameen?

[ck77]

OMG, even Getat's movement is better than that 

[terrenceterrence]

In case u are wondering...

This is as good or as "decorated" as it gets...
http://www.network54.com/Forum/353391/thread/1319394060/A+peek+inside+for+all+417+owners+.......

[TheHobbit]

Hobbs... you seem to have quite a number of PAMs with solid caseback right?
Any fitted with that kind of movement?
Dsiewmy? Zameen?

Hanz079,

I have 4 Panerai with solid case back. The PAM0003B and PAM00367 with the OP II movement. This is a ETA6497/2 movement without the swan neck but with the 'PANERAI' engraved all over the movement. The other 2 Panerai are the PAM00092 and PAM00243. Both are fitted with the OP III movement based on the ETA 7750P1 movement. I can basically confirm the movement is ETA 7750 as it has the distinct 'wobble' in it. I have not opened up the watches to view them and I don't really see the need.

Now the issue of the undecorated movement used in the PAM00318 or the OPXXIX. To me personally, I would not be upset if I find that the SE I bought had the basic ETA movement. But I would be upset if it is unsigned. At least have the pride to sign the movement.

Now to explain why I would not be upset, before I get flamed. I bought my first Panerai back in 1999 at RM6,000. I know it had an ETA movement. The same watch now has the same movement and no or minimal improvement, but cost about RM16K (?). I still buy Panerai watches knowing that there are no or minimal improvements but with almost double the price. So why should I be upset?

I have assembled and and was involved in a number of watch projects. Trust me, when you are involved in such projects, you begin to realise that the actual cost of the watch is not what you pay for. I have come to learn that movement is not everything. Like I said before, if you want to buy a watch for the movement, get one of those cuff links with the movement inside.

Back to the PAM00318. Yes, I am sure some if not all of the 150 people who got the watch would be a bit (if not a lot) cross with Panerai and I don't blame them. There is not much (nil in fact) information about the OPXXIX movement. Sad that it turned out to be such a basic movement with no decorations and unsigned. I feel for them. However in saying that, if there is anyone who wants to get rid of the watches, I am sure there will be as many who would buy it off them, with me being one of them.

[zameenzahari]

Hobbs... you seem to have quite a number of PAMs with solid caseback right?
Any fitted with that kind of movement?
Dsiewmy? Zameen?

This is the first time that I've seen an unfinished/undecorated movement in a  vendome PAM that look just like a $100 ebauche. The  OP XXIX  calibre apparently is only fitted to the 318 and no other.

Even the pre-V movement (see below) is somewhat decorated. Therefore, I am as equally surprised to see such movement being fitted in a modern PAM

[TheHobbit]

The finish in Panerai 'own in-house' movement is nothing to shout about.

P.999/1 with its brushed finish.



Compare to it's 'sister' the Piaget 838P.

[takashi78]

By sister do you mean it came off the same base caliber?

[zameenzahari]

By sister do you mean it came off the same base caliber?

My guess is..sister company....within Richemont,....which includes master movement finishers like Lange and  vacheron to name a few...

[TheHobbit]

By sister do you mean it came off the same base caliber?

You have to admit that they do look the same. Even the spec and size are the same. And like zameenzahari pointed out, both belongs to the same parent, economics of scale?

Basically they share some components, but the platine is different (plate cuts) as is the regulator.

[cd32815]

Saw this heated debate over in P.com.

Richemont must be singing and popping bottles of Kristal all the way to the bank.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/353391/thread/1319322410/318+pictures+update.++Sorry+can%27t+respond+to+emails

Mods please delete is it's inappropriate

Hello terrenceterrence,

I agree. Seems more like "cases and cases" of Kristal.

Back in 2000, they launched the 64C. First special edition 1000m Submersible with Helium valve. 500 pieces worldwide. SE boxes, scrolls. "A one-off" only, claims Panerai.

In 2001, out came the 87E, regular production 1000m Submersible with a changeover from the black to the blue dial.

In 2004, the 127 "Fiddy" with it's 1950 case was launched and Panerai said "we will never do a watch like the 1950 again"-quote.

And as they say, the rest is history!

[TheHobbit]

Hello terrenceterrence,

I agree. Seems more like "cases and cases" of Kristal.

Back in 2000, they launched the 64C. First special edition 1000m Submersible with Helium valve. 500 pieces worldwide. SE boxes, scrolls. "A one-off" only, claims Panerai.

In 2001, out came the 87E, regular production 1000m Submersible with a changeover from the black to the blue dial.

In 2004, the 127 "Fiddy" with it's 1950 case was launched and Panerai said "we will never do a watch like the 1950 again"-quote.

And as they say, the rest is history!

They (Richemont) have been celebrating since they bought Panerai. They recoup their investment when they launched the PAM00021. Ever since that, every model is just profits. Killing made with every SE/ LE launch. Look at last year, when they launched the boutique SE. They are again making a killing with the PAM00390 and I know the wait list for the PAM00422 is just as long (another celebration in order). What about the PAM00372 that everyone is waiting for. Yet another celebration.

Don't talk about SE, what about these OOR models. Remember the PAM00232? 1,938 pieces only. Then you have the OOR. PAM00249......

[hanz079]

Back to the topic of stock standard movement fitted in PAMs with no decorations whatsoever not even signed by Panerai.
I guess this could be a one off case.
And of course Paneristis insist that the allure of PAMs is in the design and are not the movements.
I am still trying to digest all this.
When I saw the pics of the movements, I am actually shocked... actually beyond shocked... and it's still leaving a bad taste in my mouth.
I mean for the prices that PAMs are commanding, can they at least show some dignity?
Collectors are paying good money for these and I can't help but feel sorry for them... but of course it does not matter one bit to them as long as they themselves are happy with the purchase.
A little decorations and attention actually goes a long way to jack up the "perceived value" of a timepiece...
I myself would not mind a reputable brand using ETA ebauches.... alot do... actually most do...
And most have at least some dignity to change some parts to higher quality ones or and decorate them to be easy on the eyes and "if" the occasion rises that you get to view them, they give you a sense of quality and workmanship.
To me, this is totally unacceptable.

I am not wearing my flame suit because I honestly feel what I am feeling now.
The thing that first crosses my mind is to cancel the boutique visit when I am in HK as I don't feel that PAMs are worth my hard earned cash.
Yeah, we all know that they are a business and they can charge whatever the market can support but this is just indescribable in words... FAIL... DOUBLE FACEPALM... insert any disappointing word in the dictionary here... 

[TheHobbit]

Back to the topic of stock standard movement fitted in PAMs with no decorations whatsoever not even signed by Panerai.
I guess this could be a one off case.
And of course Paneristis insist that the allure of PAMs is in the design and are not the movements.
I am still trying to digest all this.
When I saw the pics of the movements, I am actually shocked... actually beyond shocked... and it's still leaving a bad taste in my mouth.
I mean for the prices that PAMs are commanding, can they at least show some dignity?
Collectors are paying good money for these and I can't help but feel sorry for them... but of course it does not matter one bit to them as long as they themselves are happy with the purchase.
A little decorations and attention actually goes a long way to jack up the "perceived value" of a timepiece...
I myself would not mind a reputable brand using ETA ebauches.... alot do... actually most do...
And most have at least some dignity to change some parts to higher quality ones or and decorate them to be easy on the eyes and "if" the occasion rises that you get to view them, they give you a sense of quality and workmanship.
To me, this is totally unacceptable.

I am not wearing my flame suit because I honestly feel what I am feeling now.
The thing that first crosses my mind is to cancel the boutique visit when I am in HK as I don't feel that PAMs are worth my hard earned cash.
Yeah, we all know that they are a business and they can charge whatever the market can support but this is just indescribable in words... FAIL... DOUBLE FACEPALM... insert any disappointing word in the dictionary here... 

Hanz079,

I would like to say that it is a lapse on Panerai part but they (Panerai) have disappointed me a number of times, the last time was very recent. I actually stopped collecting their watches for a number of years, but am now back into the 'fold'. However, I am happy to say that since I called it a day (recently), I do not have to put up with the nonsense they sometimes put out. I am now just waiting for the PAM00390 (which I was told I will get in November as there are a couple of guys in-front of me) and that's it. The Destro will be the last piece, but that is next years project.

However I would say this to you, go and check the watches out. You are already in HK, so why not. They have a boutique on the island and also on the mainland, near Heritage 1881, which you must go and visit. If you are worried about the movement, get the models with the display back or the zero or the five.

[Friday]

Lets face it. Panerai does gives an extra previlege ($$$$$) for some by issueing one se after another. This is somewhat good both for panerai and resellers. Honestly, i do think panerai have had discussions with the repective boutique before finalising which movement to use for the 318 release. What i meant is that it is mainly for $$$ which backfires panerai.

As for collectors is concern, decorated or not a USD4000 watch that they are, in 6-10 years it'll increase in value and interests as well. Like hobbits RM6000 panerai, now RM16000 

As for a newbie like myself, i do know that panerai's movement is 'ciput' compared to other in house movements like rolex,patek,zenith,etc. That does not stop me from buying one. But like others have said a simple 'Officine Panerai' will do. Take pride in them Panerai. Isn't it one of the reason for making your own in-house panerai movt.. 

[Scott C.]

it's OK the movement is not well finished due to caseback but... whatever it is, to me, it's still unacceptable they did not engrave a word "panerai" with some proper serial number (i didn't see it from the photo)... i once was a diehard fans (i have few models ranging from inhouse to ETA + spent over RM10K on straps) but will not accept whatever reason/excuse by not putting what i've mentioned above...

in long run, let say 10/20 years later, how do we know this piece is authentic and the buyer/seller will have trouble identify it just like how some collectors did for some pieces issued at WW2.... just my concern and opinion la...

[chrisyen]

pam dissapointed me when they hv AH FOOK for chinese market...... 
some more sandwich dial ah FOOK
i'm not supprise they will have ah LOK
and then Ah SAO

then later appoint the hongkong star FOK LOK SAO to be their brand ambassador


 

and then petaling street become very hot of this fook lok sao....

then every1 also have one.... maybe our fren is wearing it for making roti canai and teh tarik....
my mum wear it to go pasar

[siodee]

pam dissapointed me when they hv AH FOOK for chinese market...... 
some more sandwich dial ah FOOK
i'm not supprise they will have ah LOK
and then Ah SAO

then later appoint the hongkong star FOK LOK SAO to be their brand ambassador


 

and then petaling street become very hot of this fook lok sao....

then every1 also have one.... maybe our fren is wearing it for making roti canai and teh tarik....
my mum wear it to go pasar

+1   

[terrenceterrence]

 

[chrisyen]

 

thnx bro